Calvinists,Im Asking...

[Depleted]

It's obvious from scripture that faith comes when we hear of Christ Himself. Perhaps the reason some respond is because of the condition of their hearts ( the soils ) or it can also depend on "what is exactly being said too".

The gospel which is the message of Christ Himself supplies the faith that grace has already made available to us all.

Romans 10:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."


It is always the accurate hearing of Christ Himself that brings faith to those who choose to act on it.

Here is a prime example of someone who "heard of Jesus" and then acted on what was heard. The woman with the issue of blood. Jesus didn't even know that her faith which "came from the hearing of Jesus" had drawn power out of Him for healing her.

Mark 5:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.

[SUP]28 [/SUP] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.

This is why the accurate message of Christ Himself needs to be spoken out boldly so that by the accurate hearing of Him - will supply the faith needed to receive what He has already provided for all in the world because of the abundance of grace and His love and mercy to all man-kind.

Romans 10:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Before China became China, they had a word for God. Jao. It is the same word as Jehovah. Over the course of millennia, it was whittled down to Tao. Something of God, and yet no longer God.

Before there was a Roman empire, the people living in what became that city-state had a word for God. Jove. It was the same word as Jehovah. By the time Moses walked across the wilderness with a stubborn people, that word whittled down to Jupiter, a fallible god the people could relate to more.

Both times that word was part of the language at least a millienium before God announced himself to Abraham. How did that happen? Did someone preach God to those people so they could choose Jesus himself?

It is obvious from scripture that faith comes through Jehovah. Not through hearing about Christ himself. I really wish you'd stop putting your ability into God's salvation. The only ability showing off in salvation is God's ability. The same one that got him out to the pre-Chinese and the pre-Romans. The same one that got an old man from Ur to believe he'd have a son that would start a nation. The same one that got a feeble-mouth prophet to free that nation from the Egyptians. The same one who came to earth himself, to die in our place.

His doing, not our hearing.

 

[Depleted]

I came in late to this thread. Where is the article and I'll read it...thanks..

I do know one thing for sure - none of us have all the truth in any subject. I like what Paul said "Those who think they know something - don't know it as they ought to."

Personally I believe we have barely scratched the surface of what Christ has done for us nor do we really know the love of the Father as He truly has for us. But He is changing all of that!...

If none of us have the whole truth on the subject, than why do you want to correct everyone else on what we believe?

 

[Ariel82]

Honestly, I don't see the difference between dictionary definition and what Christians say. It's the same thing to me. We were dead in sin, and then got regenerated by Christ.

And the saving faith is part of what God gives us at our rebirthday party. No purpose in having the party without the rebirth.

I think it's cause in my head that word has the medical meaning. It takes a while to add a new meaning to a word you have already defined a different way.

Medical definition is regrowing a PHYSICAL limb or organ...not being born again.

 

[Angela53510]

My experience (shock, such a word!!) of being saved, kept me, I think, from believing that Arminianism was correct. I did pick up a lot of wrong phrases and expressions with regards to salvation, but I don't think I ever believed that soteriology.

I was in the New Age movement before I was saved, for about 10 years. I also read the "sacred" texts of all the major world religions, and a lot of theosophy and other junk. But, not the Bible!

Then a revival happened in the area where I lived. These people who got saved had some amazing testimonies. Like one man, whose wife prayed and prayed for him, who was a sneaky, drunk lying adulterer. (He was sleeping with his wife's best friend!) He was just creepy to me!

One night, his wife woke up and heard the Hebrew prayer of the dead. (She was raised Jewish!) God told her that her husband was dead, and he was a new man. She looked and he was on his knees in the corner of the room repenting of his sin. Now, he had a lot of people praying for him, and witnessing to him. But he never made a conscious decision of his "will" to follow Jesus. Jesus was the one who made that decision. He became an evangelist, and he was VERY changed. It was kind of frightening, actually.

So, about that time, I decided to start reading the Bible, out of respect for my grandmother who was a Christian. I couldn't understand anything it was saying. People were telling me about Jesus all the time, but I had no faith, I didn't know if I even believed Jesus was a real historical figure. That is as far from God as you can get!

Then, my future husband sat me down and had a big talk about repentance. I had no idea what that meant, but he used Bible examples of people who sinned, (I had a Baptist Sunday School background when I was 5-8) and I finally understood what repentance was about. So, did I use my free will and make a decision to follow Christ?

Never!

God gave me a vision of who he was. He told me to repent of my sins, and that he was the Saviour of the world. I knew I had no choice, I had to follow him. I repented of many things, and the Holy Spirit gave me the power to never go back to those sins. There was NOTHING I did in myself. No free will, no decision. Just God sovereignly calling me, and me following! No choice, but the best thing that ever happened to me. God chose me, and I obeyed. I didn't have a choice but to obey.

I always say I was like Thomas. I needed to see the nails in his hands and his side. God knew this, and he showed me!

So, when this whole free will, saying a sinner's prayer, make a choice thing kept getting preached, I was always like "huh?" In my mind. Now, I know why. Because God does elect and call his own. Yes, we need to hear the gospel. That is the way God works! But, God calls us, and we don't have a choice to resist. I guess that would be irresistible grace?

And God kept me, even when I turned away from him, when I was at my worst, he not only didn't turn from me, he used it for my good. Everything, in fact, as Romans 8:28 says!

I am just trying to come at this from a different angle! Because some people are playing context games with the Bible, so maybe experience will mean more? Right, I doubt it too!

 

[trofimus]

I don't agree but it seems to be the reformed position. Could you provide some Bible verses I could study and pray about?

I am pretty sure the Baptist church I attended years ago was Free will Baptist. Not sure if i have ever attended a Reformed church.

I wonder if anyone I know in real life hold to TULIP?

I think that "natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit" is a good start... not sure what you want to study on it, though.

The calling of Gospel is the thing of the Spirit. So you must be "born from above" to accept it. Its very simple, IMHO...? Or what do you have problem with? Some verse that you think contradicts it?

We have no reformed churches in the Czech rep. so do no worry, I was never in TULIP church either But I was in the lutheran church, they taught very similarly to calvinism, except of some details.

 

[Ariel82]

It can't John 3:3 "“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” If you can't see the kingdom, how would know to have faith to be regenerated? You wouldn't.

John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

The flesh is no help at all, your flesh or you would be the one with faith and it would not help, why? Because the Spirit gives life, when the Father grants that you come to Jesus.

Doesn't really answer the question fully because everyone has a soul. God gave us a "breath of life". Can you explain what you believe "common grace" is?

Reading an article only gives you so much understanding. Talking to a person who has spent time readi,g the Bible and praying, normally helps a lot more.

So I think I can add you to my list of Calvinist still hanging around in this thread?

If so, NICE!

Thought the fighting might scare folks off.

 

[Depleted]

I'm not sure what a Calvinists is - so I'll wait to see if the questions need a new thread from Kayla.

I know one thing - I don't have all the answers. I may have an opinion on some things but whether they are accurate or not - I'll find out in the future. I love repenting when the Lord shows me things.

Awww, come on now! 476th post on a thread asking what Calvinist is, and you haven't learned anything about it yet? Even if just 1% answered (and it was more than 1%), that should give you some handle on what it is by now.

So, now you're saying you just came along to give your opinion on something you have absolutely no idea what it is, even though it's been clear from the beginning what this thread is about?

Sorry. I'm not buying that at all. Why would you keep trying to correct everyone if you don't know what they're saying that needs correcting?

 

[Ariel82]

I think that "natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit" is a good start... not sure what you want to study on it, though.

The calling of Gospel is the thing of the Spirit. So you must be "born from above" to accept it. Its very simple, IMHO...? Or what do you have problem with? Some verse that you think contradicts it?

I guess it's the order more than how it happens.

Do you believe in more than one type of grace?

We can start with what is common grace?

 

[Depleted]

Yes,I did ask There are similar things both sides believe.It Wesley and Whitefield could have different views and remain friends for life,why so much anger here? Obviously they saw they had enough in common belief not to condemn the other to hell. So.... Why so much animosity between the two sides here?

Wesley was wrong?

LOL, I couldn't help myself.

From the beginning, I've said this isn't a matter of salvation. You do not have to believe in Reformed Theology. It just makes the Bible come together completely, if you do.

 

[trofimus]

I guess it's the order more than how it happens.

Ok, which other order do we have?

Can non-spiritual man accept the calling of the Spirit? If no, then there is only one order that is possible - you must be born "again" first.

"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."
1C 2:14

I think this verse is quite clear on what the order has to be...

 

[Depleted]

according to calvinism God always fulfills His will right??? and what is His will its that 1 timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth... so will He get that?

Given you believe in the god of universalism, there really is no way to explain it to you. Not from a non-Calvinist POV nor a Calvinist one.

 

[Depleted]

I dont know,it looks like the Calvinists have left.I tried to keep the thread peaceful,told people to put trouble makers on ignore but I see all people posting in other threads. Im starting to wonder if there wasn't enough fighting and name calling in the thread to keep it interesting. I was asking and getting answers and I guess that was too boring for people.

I've seen four Calvinist reply since "all the Calvinists left."

 

[ForthAngel]

My experience (shock, such a word!!) of being saved, kept me, I think, from believing that Arminianism was correct. I did pick up a lot of wrong phrases and expressions with regards to salvation, but I don't think I ever believed that soteriology.

I was in the New Age movement before I was saved, for about 10 years. I also read the "sacred" texts of all the major world religions, and a lot of theosophy and other junk. But, not the Bible!

Then a revival happened in the area where I lived. These people who got saved had some amazing testimonies. Like one man, whose wife prayed and prayed for him, who was a sneaky, drunk lying adulterer. (He was sleeping with his wife's best friend!) He was just creepy to me!

One night, his wife woke up and heard the Hebrew prayer of the dead. (She was raised Jewish!) God told her that her husband was dead, and he was a new man. She looked and he was on his knees in the corner of the room repenting of his sin. Now, he had a lot of people praying for him, and witnessing to him. But he never made a conscious decision of his "will" to follow Jesus. Jesus was the one who made that decision. He became an evangelist, and he was VERY changed. It was kind of frightening, actually.

So, about that time, I decided to start reading the Bible, out of respect for my grandmother who was a Christian. I couldn't understand anything it was saying. People were telling me about Jesus all the time, but I had no faith, I didn't know if I even believed Jesus was a real historical figure. That is as far from God as you can get!

Then, my future husband sat me down and had a big talk about repentance. I had no idea what that meant, but he used Bible examples of people who sinned, (I had a Baptist Sunday School background when I was 5-8) and I finally understood what repentance was about. So, did I use my free will and make a decision to follow Christ?

Never!

God gave me a vision of who he was. He told me to repent of my sins, and that he was the Saviour of the world. I knew I had no choice, I had to follow him. I repented of many things, and the Holy Spirit gave me the power to never go back to those sins. There was NOTHING I did in myself. No free will, no decision. Just God sovereignly calling me, and me following! No choice, but the best thing that ever happened to me. God chose me, and I obeyed. I didn't have a choice but to obey.

I always say I was like Thomas. I needed to see the nails in his hands and his side. God knew this, and he showed me!

So, when this whole free will, saying a sinner's prayer, make a choice thing kept getting preached, I was always like "huh?" In my mind. Now, I know why. Because God does elect and call his own. Yes, we need to hear the gospel. That is the way God works! But, God calls us, and we don't have a choice to resist. I guess that would be irresistible grace?

And God kept me, even when I turned away from him, when I was at my worst, he not only didn't turn from me, he used it for my good. Everything, in fact, as Romans 8:28 says!

I am just trying to come at this from a different angle! Because some people are playing context games with the Bible, so maybe experience will mean more? Right, I doubt it too!

Pretty much every testimony I've heard so far from people who end up aligning with reformed theology have a similar "it wasn't me, it was all God" experience. For some, it's gentle, for others, like myself, he drags kicking and screaming and breaks them first. And others are somewhere in between.

 

[Depleted]

Re-posting...


So Im going to ask you all to check out the link. Its about Wesley and its pretty much what I believe. But I wanted to know what differences we have as you read the few points made.Dont you think we are all closer to the same belief than we think?


https://jamespedlar.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/john-wesley-on-predestination/

Short answer -- that he doesn't believe in predestination is a big problem for me. Hate the word, distort the word, whatever, but to come out and say it is foreknowledge is just wrong.

I also think Johnny B did an excellent post of that one. Post 466.

 

[trofimus]

Do you believe in more than one type of grace?

Sure
- sun is shining - one type (almost a common grace)
- I can breath (almost common grace)
- I live in a peaceful country (not so common grace)
- I have a Bible (not so common grace)
- I was found by God (not so common grace at all)

We can start with what is common grace?

Not sure, but I would guess it means "grace that is given commonly"

 

[Depleted]

I don't know...I have not decided on if I believe God's grace is resistible or not. Also unsure about predestination/election versus foreknowledge.

It makes sense to me that we would all resist God's grace but His power changes us and helps us overcome that initial resistance. Because how else would anyone be saved if God didn't first change us and our minds?

Maybe it does come down to what we believe the natural state of man is without God's divine guidance?

Or can we ever actually be without divine guidance?

John 3:18-20 sure says we're very good at resisting God. Clearly. BUT irresistible grace comes after regeneration. And then it's much like me trying to resist chocolate covered raspberries. Maybe I can, but why would I want to? God's grace is even better than chocolate covered raspberries!!!

 

[Ariel82]

Ok, which other order do we have?

Can non-spiritual man accept the calling of the Spirit? If no, then there is only one order that is possible - you must be born "again" first.

God gave all men souls. The belief of free will is that God have men the grace to accept or reject the calling of God into righteousness. This is NOT referred to as being born again.
***
I think I explained before the held belief of Methodist church is three different types of grace: Prevenient , justifying and sanctifying grace.all grace is believed to be a gift from God and not "earned" by any merit within the person.

Prevenient grace can be rejected.

Justifying grace is saving grace and sanctifying grace is walking with the Holy spirit.

I have always been taught the order of Salvation is

1. God gives the world Prevenient grace to be able to choose between good and evil. They are given the Law. Carnal men reject God and His law. Others respond to this grace and try and keep the Law but are unable to because they don't have justifying grace of what Jesus did upon the cross.

2. They both hear the gospel. The carnal man rejects it. The man under the Law either embraces it or rejects it to continue trying to earn his SALVATION.

3. If he embraces it. That is the moment of conversion and justification. That is when folks are born again and have the Holy Spirit within them and are empowered to overcome sin. When they trust in Christ alone for salvation.

4. God gives His born again children watching grace to continue walking in His ways.

****

It just seems odd that someone would be born again before having faith.

I see God's hand working in the lives of all men, but he only gives justifying faith to those He has brought to the point of repentance and knowledge of their need for a savior.

I guess the question for me would be, could God start the regeneration process as defined by reformed folks, but decide NOT to finish it? Could they NEVER confess Jesus as Lord and Savior?

 

[Ariel82]

Sure
- sun is shining - one type (almost a common grace)
- I can breath (almost common grace)
- I live in a peaceful country (not so common grace)
- I have a Bible (not so common grace)
- I was found by God (not so common grace at all)


Not sure, but I would guess it means "grace that is given commonly"

Lol you got jokes.

 

[trofimus]

God gave all men souls. The belief of free will is that God have men the grace to accept or reject the calling of God into righteousness. This is NOT referred to as being born again.
***
I think I explained before the held belief of Methodist church is three different types of grace: Prevenient , justifying and sanctifying grace.all grace is believed to be a gift from God and not "earned" by any merit within the person.

Prevenient grace can be rejected.

Justifying grace is saving grace and sanctifying grace is walking with the Holy spirit.

I have always been taught the order of Salvation is

1. God gives the world Prevenient grace to be able to choose between good and evil. They are given the Law. Carnal men reject God and His law. Others respond to this grace and try and keep the Law but are unable to because they don't have justifying grace of what Jesus did upon the cross.

2. They both hear the gospel. The carnal man rejects it. The man under the Law either embraces it or rejects it to continue trying to earn his SALVATION.

3. If he embraces it. That is the moment of conversion and justification. That is when folks are born again and have the Holy Spirit within them and are empowered to overcome sin. When they trust in Christ alone for salvation.

4. God gives His born again children watching grace to continue walking in His ways.

****

It just seems odd that someone would be born again before having faith.

I see God's hand working in the lives of all men, but he only gives justifying faith to those He has brought to the point of repentance and knowledge of their need for a savior.

I guess the question for me would be, could God start the regeneration process as defined by reformed folks, but decide NOT to finish it? Could they NEVER confess Jesus as Lord and Savior?

You posted no verses proving your order of things, so I can only repeat that, the non-spiritual man cannot accept the things of the Spirit.

Thats why we must be made "spiritual" so that we can accept the things of the Spirit.


Sorry for my short answers, but I see no need to make it longer...

 

[Ariel82]

My experience (shock, such a word!!) of being saved, kept me, I think, from believing that Arminianism was correct. I did pick up a lot of wrong phrases and expressions with regards to salvation, but I don't think I ever believed that soteriology.

I was in the New Age movement before I was saved, for about 10 years. I also read the "sacred" texts of all the major world religions, and a lot of theosophy and other junk. But, not the Bible!

Then a revival happened in the area where I lived. These people who got saved had some amazing testimonies. Like one man, whose wife prayed and prayed for him, who was a sneaky, drunk lying adulterer. (He was sleeping with his wife's best friend!) He was just creepy to me!

One night, his wife woke up and heard the Hebrew prayer of the dead. (She was raised Jewish!) God told her that her husband was dead, and he was a new man. She looked and he was on his knees in the corner of the room repenting of his sin. Now, he had a lot of people praying for him, and witnessing to him. But he never made a conscious decision of his "will" to follow Jesus. Jesus was the one who made that decision. He became an evangelist, and he was VERY changed. It was kind of frightening, actually.

So, about that time, I decided to start reading the Bible, out of respect for my grandmother who was a Christian. I couldn't understand anything it was saying. People were telling me about Jesus all the time, but I had no faith, I didn't know if I even believed Jesus was a real historical figure. That is as far from God as you can get!

Then, my future husband sat me down and had a big talk about repentance. I had no idea what that meant, but he used Bible examples of people who sinned, (I had a Baptist Sunday School background when I was 5-8) and I finally understood what repentance was about. So, did I use my free will and make a decision to follow Christ?

Never!

God gave me a vision of who he was. He told me to repent of my sins, and that he was the Saviour of the world. I knew I had no choice, I had to follow him. I repented of many things, and the Holy Spirit gave me the power to never go back to those sins. There was NOTHING I did in myself. No free will, no decision. Just God sovereignly calling me, and me following! No choice, but the best thing that ever happened to me. God chose me, and I obeyed. I didn't have a choice but to obey.

I always say I was like Thomas. I needed to see the nails in his hands and his side. God knew this, and he showed me!

So, when this whole free will, saying a sinner's prayer, make a choice thing kept getting preached, I was always like "huh?" In my mind. Now, I know why. Because God does elect and call his own. Yes, we need to hear the gospel. That is the way God works! But, God calls us, and we don't have a choice to resist. I guess that would be irresistible grace?

And God kept me, even when I turned away from him, when I was at my worst, he not only didn't turn from me, he used it for my good. Everything, in fact, as Romans 8:28 says!

I am just trying to come at this from a different angle! Because some people are playing context games with the Bible, so maybe experience will mean more? Right, I doubt it too!

I love hearing testimonies.

However I believe some things can't truly be told to another...folks kind have to live through it.

Beings born again I believe is one of those things each person has to experience personally to make sense of the spiritual teachings in the Bible.

.I just get sick and tired of all the fighting.

If you really don't think the person is a child of God, why bother talking to them?

I have decided to put all folks who want to act like immature brats on ignore. (yeah I know I will offend somebody by stating that, but if they think I am a brat, I would prefer if they put me on ignore also.)

Makes this thread easier & more peaceful to read,