Not By Works

[MattforJesus]

The problem with 2 Peter 2 v20-22 for the Osassers is this. They have to redefine who is a believer to who isnt. But the scriptures here are clear that they escaped. Now how did they escape? By their own effort, or by Christ? THIS THEY CANNOT ANSWER. Because if they say own effort, then HOW is this possible? If they say Christ, the HOW is it possible to say so and then accede that these people fell away again.

So they are left with trying to redefine words and intentions in scripture.

The scriptures are plain for all to see.

I suppose their head is all in a bind as they have to try to justify all the scriptures that testify against OSAS,and come up with an interpretation that fits their belief,and they probably get in large groups,a think tank,to come up with an interpretation that fits their belief,and I can hear it now,someone standing up,and speaking,men and brethren,what shall we do,for we cannot come to an interpretation to justify our position,and there is only one way out,we must sweep this scripture under the rug,and do not mention it ever again,and file this non used scripture under non used scripture #49,and let it be so,saith the people of the OSAS clan,and they all say here ye,here ye.

Mat 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
Mat 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Mat 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

People that hold a belief contrary to the truth of God will eventually come across something that contradicts what they believe,and they will not know how to answer for they cannot justify themselves,so many will ignore it for they cannot explain it,but might think it is an interpretation that goes along with what I believe,but I cannot grasp it now.

They say God chooses who will be saved,and who will not be saved,in the beginning,without the input of the person,which first off God is not evil to condemn people that have no input concerning their destiny,and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,and God is no respecter of persons.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God wants all people to be saved,and Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all people,which the Bible says He is the Savior of the world,all people,and lights every person that is born in to this world.

So God does not choose who will be saved,and not saved,in the beginning,without the input of the person,for we do get an input in our destiny,and if not people that God chose would not truly love God,for they have no choice but to love God,and those not chosen are condemned for no reason.

2 things that go against the nature of God,that He is true love,and He is not evil,wow which is really crazy that their belief says this about God,but I know they are not trying to do that.

God calls things that have not happened as though they already happened,which all the works were finished before the foundation of the world,and the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,although they were future events.

God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if they have salvation in the beginning,and that salvation is to whoever wants it,for the Spirit and bride say,Come,and anybody that wants that salvation can have it.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God does the calling and choosing on earth,but God gets the glory for us being saved,for when He calls us He works in our life to get us to the truth,but we have to make the final push through the door and accept that truth,for God's kingdom is based on true love.Without God interceding in our life we would never get to the point to make the decision of the truth,for no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them,and no person says Jesus is Lord,but by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Like the Old Testament that was given to Israel,if they did not obey then they were cut off,so it is in the New Testament,if a person accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior,but they do not continue in His goodness,holding unto sin,they too will be cut off if they do not repent,and give up the sin.

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2Ti 3:6 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

A lot of people claim Jesus as Lord,and if some people start out in goodness,and then did not continue in goodness,will be cut off,if they do not get rid of the sins,then how will these people be in a right position that did not even get off on the right foot,for they would not get rid of their sins right off the bat,but if they would realize that sin affects their relationship with God,and does something about it,they can get on track.

If they believe they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,did they get off on the right foot with God,for when they accepted Christ as Lord and Savior,did they hold unto sin thinking they were alright with God,but only repented of all they did prior to that,but did not make that great of an effort to try to abstain from sin in the future,but do it,and then repent,and hold unto sin.

Many are called but few chosen,for we have a choice in the matter of our salvation,for God is true love,and is not evil.

Were they chosen that believe sin does not affect their relationship with Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

It is very clear that 2 Peter chapter 2 "in context" is talking about false teachers that creep in amongst us - NOT Christians. 2 Peter 2:1

Amen! These false teachers are as dogs who return to their own vomit or as sows (pigs) who return to the mire (the pig pen). God's people are never compared to dogs or pigs. They are sheep. But these people are still pigs (or dogs). They have never become sheep. Yes, they escaped the pollutions of the world for a time by learning the ways of Christ and reforming their actions. They knew the way of righteousness as a set of facts can be memorized. But they did not know Christ in their hearts. They were still pigs. And, when they return to the world, their latter end will be worse than the beginning.

This condition is illustrated by the man who was rid of the evil spirit in Matthew 12:43-45 - When the evil spirit returned to the man, he found his house "empty, swept, and garnished." Because of this, he found seven other spirits "more wicked than himself" to enter and dwell in the man. So, "the last state of that man is worse than the first." The problem occurred because the man experienced reformation without regeneration. His heart was swept, but it was also empty. He cleaned up his life, but he did not have the indwelling Christ.

 

[BillG]

A lot of people claim Jesus as Lord,and if some people start out in goodness,and then did not continue in goodness,will be cut off,if they do not get rid of the sins,then how will these people be in a right position that did not even get off on the right foot,for they would not get rid of their sins right off the bat,but if they would realize that sin affects their relationship with God,and does something about it,they can get on track.

If they believe they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,did they get off on the right foot with God,for when they accepted Christ as Lord and Savior,did they hold unto sin thinking they were alright with God,but only repented of all they did prior to that,but did not make that great of an effort to try to abstain from sin in the future,but do it,and then repent,and hold unto sin.

Many are called but few chosen,for we have a choice in the matter of our salvation,for God is true love,and is not evil.

Were they chosen that believe sin does not affect their relationship with Christ.

Hey Matt can you make the above a bit clearer for me. Not fully getting what you are saying.

Ta

 

[MattforJesus]

Hey Matt can you make the above a bit clearer for me. Not fully getting what you are saying.

Ta

Many are called but few are chosen.

Some people confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and try to abstain from sin,understanding God's goodness,but then down the road they go back to sin,and do not continue in God's goodness,and if they continue like that and it does not get corrected they will be cut off.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These people started in the goodness of God,but down the road went back to sin,and did not continue in the goodness of God.

Some people confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and they repented of their sins of the past,but did not make a great effort to abstain from sins thinking it did not affect their relationship with Christ,so they did not even start off in the goodness of God.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These people repented of their sins,but did not make a great effort to abstain from sins thinking they were alright,and held unto sin,not understanding they have to abstain from sins to be right with God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That is what happened to these people,they had a form of godliness,but they would not abstain from sin thinking it did not affect their relationship with God.

Many are called but few are chosen,so these people were not chosen.

Not everybody that claims Jesus as Lord and Savior had the right perspective when they started out in their Christian walk.

They did not get it right from the get go.

 

[Chris1975]

Many are called but few are chosen.

Some people confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and try to abstain from sin,understanding God's goodness,but then down the road they go back to sin,and do not continue in God's goodness,and if they continue like that and it does not get corrected they will be cut off.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These people started in the goodness of God,but down the road went back to sin,and did not continue in the goodness of God.

Some people confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and they repented of their sins of the past,but did not make a great effort to abstain from sins thinking it did not affect their relationship with Christ,so they did not even start off in the goodness of God.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These people repented of their sins,but did not make a great effort to abstain from sins thinking they were alright,and held unto sin,not understanding they have to abstain from sins to be right with God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That is what happened to these people,they had a form of godliness,but they would not abstain from sin thinking it did not affect their relationship with God.

Many are called but few are chosen,so these people were not chosen.

Not everybody that claims Jesus as Lord and Savior had the right perspective when they started out in their Christian walk.

They did not get it right from the get go.

How some on this site overlook these verses is beyond comprehension.

Ah yes - [SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


If God sends this delusion, then there is very little hope. Because they did not love the truth. Because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Two things will be necessary (IMO):
- love of the truth (taking bible verses at face value). Stop making up reasons to fit the bible to your doctrine. Align your doctrine to the bible
- get a revelation that unrighteousness WILL NEVER be acceptable to God.

Then...maybe...God will grant them repentance. And remove the spirit of deception (1 Kings 22v22)

 

[BillG]

Many are called but few are chosen.

Some people confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and try to abstain from sin,understanding God's goodness,but then down the road they go back to sin,and do not continue in God's goodness,and if they continue like that and it does not get corrected they will be cut off.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These people started in the goodness of God,but down the road went back to sin,and did not continue in the goodness of God.

Some people confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and they repented of their sins of the past,but did not make a great effort to abstain from sins thinking it did not affect their relationship with Christ,so they did not even start off in the goodness of God.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

These people repented of their sins,but did not make a great effort to abstain from sins thinking they were alright,and held unto sin,not understanding they have to abstain from sins to be right with God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That is what happened to these people,they had a form of godliness,but they would not abstain from sin thinking it did not affect their relationship with God.

Many are called but few are chosen,so these people were not chosen.

Not everybody that claims Jesus as Lord and Savior had the right perspective when they started out in their Christian walk.

They did not get it right from the get go.

Putting aside the 2 Peter 2 scripture as we may have to agree to disagree with that.

What is it to walk in Gods goodness?
You seem to indicate it's all about not sinning.

Correct me if I am wrong

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason is that Jesus said so.
The purpose is because we're members of the Kingdom and we are to promote that Kingdom.

I agree with this 100%,

as long as it is not maintaining salvation (which is no different than earning salvation) we are fine..

 

[Grace777x70]

Unrighteousness is living from our own self-righteousness. It's called eating from the "good" side of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Satan and his horde come "as ministers of righteousness" - trying to get believers to live by their own righteousness by what they do or don't do and thus are nullifying the grace of God that is in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a subtle deception and all works-based - works-righteousness belief systems including the religion of Christianity can live by this belief. This false teaching of losing your salvation is the fruit of such deception. It denies the Lord and His work on the cross and resurrection.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God because that is the only thing that teaches how to live godly in this present world as believers. Titus 3:11-12

Without Him - we can do nothing. It is His fruit that we the branches bear. We don't produce fruit on our own.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

?????

If God did not give a gift because He knew a person would not accept it...
GOD IS INFLUENCING TIME.
He is changing history.

What you say cannot be true and the thinking is not correct and lopsided.

God does not change the future or time or circumstances, he only KNOWS what will happen.
If the person believed, he had the gift of salvation... at the time that he no longer believes THAT is when he loses salvation.
GOD DOES NOT WITHOLD ANYTHING due to His knowledge.

Ok, I mean really? Am am taken back.. wow.. do not know what to think

So you would rather Have God give eternal life, the promise that they will never die, live forever, his assurance that he will raise them from the dead to eternal life, Be given the seal of the spirit. the guarantee of the spirit. all these things.

KNOWING they will turn their backs a few years down the raid (meaning they never really believed to begin with?)

all because it will change time?

No, It does not change time, It is God knowing a person better then you and I know a person. He knows us better than we know ourselves. We can not fool God, but we can fool people.

 

[BillG]

How some on this site overlook these verses is beyond comprehension.

Ah yes - [SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


If God sends this delusion, then there is very little hope. Because they did not love the truth. Because they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Two things will be necessary (IMO):
- love of the truth (taking bible verses at face value). Stop making up reasons to fit the bible to your doctrine. Align your doctrine to the bible
- get a revelation that unrighteousness WILL NEVER be acceptable to God.

Then...maybe...God will grant them repentance. And remove the spirit of deception (1 Kings 22v22)

So how does this tie in with what you believe

Matthew 24:24 (NKJV)
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

 

[PeterJens]

Unrighteousness is living from our own self-righteousness. It's called eating from the "good" side of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Satan and his horde come "as ministers of righteousness" - trying to get believers to live by their own righteousness by what they do or don't do and thus are nullifying the grace of God that is in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a subtle deception and all works-based - works-righteousness belief systems including the religion of Christianity can live by this belief. This false teaching of losing your salvation is the fruit of such deception. It denies the Lord and His work on the cross and resurrection.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God because that is the only thing that teaches how to live godly in this present world as believers. Titus 3:11-12

Without Him - we can do nothing. It is His fruit that we the branches bear. We don't produce fruit on our own.

Two phrases jump out at me in this post

Unrighteousness is living from our own self-righteousness.

Satan and his horde come "as ministers of righteousness"

So the connection is unrighteousness is self-righteousness, and these guys
are part of Satan and his horde.

It is a dangerous road to connect righteousness with evil, because it is on the
road to becoming an enemy of God.

Now Gods enemies deny sinning and refuse to repent of sin when confronted.

They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Rev 16:9

God always condemns sin and rebellion and calls for repentance.
Anything else is not His message.

So if a people confess they sin and refuse to repent, they are no friends of God.

 

[gb9]

Two phrases jump out at me in this post

Unrighteousness is living from our own self-righteousness.

Satan and his horde come "as ministers of righteousness"

So the connection is unrighteousness is self-righteousness, and these guys
are part of Satan and his horde.

It is a dangerous road to connect righteousness with evil, because it is on the
road to becoming an enemy of God.

Now Gods enemies deny sinning and refuse to repent of sin when confronted.

They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
Rev 16:9

God always condemns sin and rebellion and calls for repentance.
Anything else is not His message.

So if a people confess they sin and refuse to repent, they are no friends of God.

"now God's enemies deny sinning and refuse to repent when confronted"

earlier today, on another thread, I pointed out to you that telling folks that you do not personally know that you know how they feel, what they believe, etc...... is not truthful, therefore a lie, a sin.

you rejected this, so BY YOUR OWN WORDS you make yourself an enemy of God.

and, before you respond, keep in my you constantly engage in the behavior I pointed out, and you wrote what I quoted. you did.

 

[Chris1975]

Unrighteousness is living from our own self-righteousness. It's called eating from the "good" side of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Satan and his horde come "as ministers of righteousness" - trying to get believers to live by their own righteousness by what they do or don't do and thus are nullifying the grace of God that is in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a subtle deception and all works-based - works-righteousness belief systems including the religion of Christianity can live by this belief. This false teaching of losing your salvation is the fruit of such deception. It denies the Lord and His work on the cross and resurrection.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God because that is the only thing that teaches how to live godly in this present world as believers. Titus 3:11-12

Without Him - we can do nothing. It is His fruit that we the branches bear. We don't produce fruit on our own.

Whilst the highlighted part is PART of it, its not the whole. Adultery is unrighteous. Lying, stealing, malice, murder, etc is unrighteousness. And yes, self righteousness is also unrighteous. But you have to move past this element being the whole of it.

 

[MattforJesus]

I do not see any difference between the Old Testament,and the New Testament,in this aspect.

God gave the Old Testament,they had to obey,or else they were in trouble,and it is sin that separated them from God(Isaiah 59).

God gave the New Testament,and we have to obey,or else we are in trouble,which God commands all people to repent,and it is sin that separates us from God,and when confess Christ,it is still sin that separates us from God(James 1:12-16;1 John 3:2-10).

For it always sin that separates us from God,whether Old Testament or New,whether in the Old a Jew or a Gentile,whether in the New confess Christ,or do not confess Christ.

It is always sin that separates us from God.

Obey!For to obey is better than sacrifice,and Jesus said if you do not follow His commandments you do not love Him,and said a new commandment I give you that you love one another,as I have loved you,and love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

But in 1 Corinthians.Paul said,without love he is nothing,and love does not think an evil thought,and does not rejoice in iniquity,but rejoices in the truth,living a lifestyle that is Christlike.

If we want to abstain from sin,and act Christlike,by the Spirit we can,which is what God wants,because sin separates us from God,so God wants us to cease from sinning.

Excuses do not mean anything,which is what the people in Matthew 7 said to Jesus,we did this and we did that,and Jesus said you were workers of iniquity,and there is no excuse of your sin,for if you did not want sin by the Spirit you could of abstained from sin,but you wanted sin,so therefore you cannot dwell with Me,because you did not care to act like Me representing goodness.

Whatever position on earth,it is always sin that separates us from God.

 

[Chris1975]

Ok, I mean really? Am am taken back.. wow.. do not know what to think

So you would rather Have God give eternal life, the promise that they will never die, live forever, his assurance that he will raise them from the dead to eternal life, Be given the seal of the spirit. the guarantee of the spirit. all these things.

KNOWING they will turn their backs a few years down the raid (meaning they never really believed to begin with?)

all because it will change time?

No, It does not change time, It is God knowing a person better then you and I know a person. He knows us better than we know ourselves. We can not fool God, but we can fool people.

God's promises are to those IN COVENANT. If we break covenant, just like Israel broke covenant, then God can forsake (Deut 31).

 

[FranC]

Ok, I mean really? Am am taken back.. wow.. do not know what to think

So you would rather Have God give eternal life, the promise that they will never die, live forever, his assurance that he will raise them from the dead to eternal life, Be given the seal of the spirit. the guarantee of the spirit. all these things.

KNOWING they will turn their backs a few years down the raid (meaning they never really believed to begin with?)

all because it will change time?

No, It does not change time, It is God knowing a person better then you and I know a person. He knows us better than we know ourselves. We can not fool God, but we can fool people.

i can't answer this. It's too far out.
think about it.

If what you say is true, I can ever know if I am saved.

I love God today and walk with Him.
BUT
Is He by my side?????

Maybe not. Because HE KNOWS I'm going to fall away 2 years from now and why give me a gift He knows I'm going to then reject.

I never heard of anything like this.

Could you please give me a scripture that alludes to this since the bible is our ultimate authority?
I'd appreciate it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is God more concerned with good works or the motives/reasons for our good works?

I would say you can have two people doing the exact same deed.


1 Is a good deed which will bear fruit
1 is a selfish deed, which is considered sin, A work of self righteousness

Thats why A non believer can do the same deed, yet be told he can do no good..

Why is this? As you said, the motive.

 

[blue_ladybug]

It's called free will. We have the option to choose to follow God through thick and thin, or fall away, whether only for awhile or forever.. You're forgetting that God knows our minds and hearts and will judge us accordingly.. People fall away from God every day, some return, others don't.. God knows we will misplace our faith from time to time, but He waits for us because He is ever faithful.

It's up to us to choose whether we return to Him or not. For those who don't, what happens to them is up to God. He offers the gift of salvation to ALL, whether they accept it or reject it is on them.

i can't answer this. It's too far out.
think about it.

If what you say is true, I can ever know if I am saved.

I love God today and walk with Him.
BUT
Is He by my side?????

Maybe not. Because HE KNOWS I'm going to fall away 2 years from now and why give me a gift He knows I'm going to then reject.

I never heard of anything like this.

Could you please give me a scripture that alludes to this since the bible is our ultimate authority?
I'd appreciate it.

 

[FranC]

It's called free will. We have the option to choose to follow God through thick and thin, or fall away, whether only for awhile or forever.. You're forgetting that God knows our minds and hearts and will judge us accordingly.. People fall away from God every day, some return, others don't.. God knows we will misplace our faith from time to time, but He waits for us because He is ever faithful.

It's up to us to choose whether we return to Him or not. For those who don't, what happens to them is up to God. He offers the gift of salvation to ALL, whether they accept it or reject it is on them.

Sorry Blue.
This doesn't answer what is being discussed.

Let's see what eternally_grateful has to say about it.

I do believe it's a brand new doctrine.

 

[FranC]

You never assume?

The people I'm talking about are the ones that rely on their good works to receive/keep salvation.

Like I mentioned, the thief who got saved by Jesus is a very simple yet definite proof that
men are saved by faith alone, yet those who rely on works based salvation overlook it.

Why? Because they have been deceived into thinking that all their good works would
give them salvation or stay being saved.

But you are right, good works are good! And those who do it will get rewarded,
but it is no way a basis for anyones salvation.
That's where the deception lies.

Would an unbeliever doing good works profit him?
Perhaps in this life but it will not get him salvation.

In the same way, would a believer doing good works profit him?
Much more so in this life!
And it is because he is a believer of Christ Jesus that he can produce good works!

As believers, our good works are our expression of having been saved.
We love because we have been loved by God.
We forgive because we have been forgiven by God.
We share peace because we have been given God's peace.
And we see the good things in everything because we have Jesus in us,
Jesus who is the best of the best.



If one is self righteous before God then it is not being led by the Holy Spirit.
Remember when Jesus predicted His death and resurrection?
Peter even rebuked Jesus and said "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

Jesus' response is spot on.
"Get behind Me, Satan!
You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God,
but the things of men."

Too focused on "our good works" is self-righteousness.
Let's not be mindful of the things of men.

The focus must always be on Jesus and His finished work.
Being mindful of the things of God.


But Peter was proud of himself.
He often showed off many times in front of the other disciples that he would never do this or that.
But he ended up being the one denying Jesus 3 times.

Focusing too much on self is almost always a step in the wrong direction.
But remember, Jesus did not give up on Peter even after his denial of Jesus.

That's our awesome Jesus!
That's how patient Jesus is!
And that's also how patient God the father is with us.



Nice to know we agree on some things at least.



The man was dying because of his own sins so
I highly doubt he'd be thinking to do any good works after that.
But again, you're looking at the wrong cross.
The cross that really matters is the one in the middle where Jesus hung.
So I'd say, Jesus did the best work of all mankind hanging on that cross.



I think it's a perfect example of salvation through faith.
A scene at the cross.
Two sinners in the brink of death with no good works to show for.
In the midst is Jesus, a sinless man taking all of our sins.
One mocked Jesus, denying His salvation.
And one turned to Jesus for salvation
and received it.

Not by works = 1
By works = 0

And no, currently, I don't have another example.

Thanks for the nice and peaceful discussion.

God bless you and may the Lord Jesus give you and your family more joy, peace, love, and wisdom.

BJ

I knew you wouldn't be able to come up with a different example.
Know why?
There is NONE.

I also thank you and pray the Lord gives you and your family more joy, peace and wisdom.