Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Me angry?

I trust people who trust in Christ know Him and follow His word.

What surprises me is when I am told I must not be a believer if I do not hold
one version of security in Christ. This is a version of idolatry.

If you do not have the idol, you are not saved. It is this that did not add up when
I first came across this group and in later conversations. But now it makes perfect
sense. Without their idol their faith becomes meaningless.

Just read their words. Without "idol" I would be lost, no confidence, no foundation,
always would be working to compensate for my insecurity, everything flows from this idol.

Now I worship Jesus and His love expressed through the cross. He is my King and
Lord the one who brought me forgiveness of my sins and the example I am to follow.

So when Christ is the one who I worship, that is the true duty of me a child of the
Kingdom of heaven. In Him is my security, knowing the love that dwells in His heart
and was expressed through the cross is my salvation.

I believe Jesus and who He is.

Now however you spin this it is not the version people are projecting on to me, so I
just wonder why they need to invent such stories? Maybe it makes them happy, or
justifies their own position. My observation are based only on their words and expressions
of faith and trust. I am not projecting anything, I am listening.

lol.. You get angry then deny, Look at how mad you got at DC..

You blame shift more than any person I have ever met, That and your slander.. WHo said you had to have an idol to be saved? What you have to have is faith in christ.

You claim you have faith in christ, yet your words deceive you, Because when you speak about your faith, it is not in christ, It is in how holy you are. How many works you have done, How sinless you are. How when you do make an OOPSIE (mistake or slip up and sin) you make sure you repent of it. It is all about Peter Jenz, There is never any security in Christ spoken of by you, only in your works.

What I said still stands, The fact you do not have security IN CHRIST should make you pause, and wonder what your faith is really in..

Ignore it or deny it all you want.. Your the one who will be held accountable when you stand face to face with God.

 

[Ariel82]

Just because they reject you Peterjens and your many strawmen, doesn't mean they worship an idol.

It just means they can't see past your strawmen to what you actually believe.

Strawmen are insulting, yet you continue to erect them. Why?

Name one person in the thread that has not said a5 least ONCE or more that good works is the Fruit of salvation and that behavior changes after a person is born again?

.yet you still erect this false straw man and have named it "idol of security".

It's insulting,

 

[PeterJens]

What you call idolotry, Normal people call a relationship.

As children we are secure in our parents arms. We are secure when we know they will protect us We are secure because we know they LOVE us no matter what.

As Children of God we are secure in Gods arms (he said he will never leave nor forsake us) We are secure when we know our father (god) will protect us, even from ourselves, And we are secure when we know our father will love us no matter what.

That is the basis of ANY loving relationship. If your not secure in your parent, your not secure at all.

Sadly, people want to replace the secure relationship with God the father and replace it with an insecure relationship with rules and regulations and religion, And call it love.. When it is nothing more than love of self.

God bless you, a least you are happy, I pray when trouble comes you will survive.

I wonder if you think being in Gods kingdom is like being a child under His care, except some
teenagers grow up and kill themselves, and parents can do nothing about it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Until a child of God is mature, and grounded in Christ, they are slaves and put under the Law to be chastened and taught God's ways.

You sure about this?

I thought once a person was adopted. the law was done away with (it had completed its job)

To me, putting a kid under law would destroy them, because they can not uphold it ,and would always be seen as a failure (if they really looked at it the way God intended)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God bless you, a least you are happy, I pray when trouble comes you will survive.

I wonder if you think being in Gods kingdom is like being a child under His care, except some
teenagers grow up and kill themselves, and parents can do nothing about it.

You have some issues peter.. I hope you take care of them.Yeah some teens do commit suicide, This is an evil world we live in, Some can not take the pressure.. Yet do those parents just let their kids rot where they died? Or do they take them in their arms, and lovingly lay them to rest.

It is sad to think the kind of person you think God is.. If only you could see it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

once enlightened - The word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

partakers of the Holy Spirit - Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

tasted the good word of God - Again, they had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

fall away - I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians. Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away do not accompany salvation.

It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. In regards to "restore them again unto repentance," this wording alone does not specify whether the earlier repentance was merely outward or whether it was genuine repentance that accompanied saving faith in Christ. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? *Why is it that we never find the words "lose or lost your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

Cant rep again this fast. excellent post brother.

I love how the workers use this passage, when this passage clearly states, if they fall away, they can NEVER be renewed.

If this passage supports loss of salvation, it says the person who lost it cn never get it back, it is gone forever.. SO if thats what they want to use it for. the first time they think threy lost salvation, they were done..

Of course they will say they never lost it, because they have been holy and not sinned (or just made booboos and oopsies) which God did not punish them for.

 

[plainguy]

maybe this is a newer article?

"I am an Arminian,

And all this time I thought you were an American .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Straw man argument.

It is all he has, we can tell him until we are blue in the face we do not reject repentance,, he will never believe us, He is right no matter what..

Walking in righteousness is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20) not the essence of repentance - to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind (Strong's #3340, 3341). The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). *Please explain to me what YOU believe it means to "believe the gospel."

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not a self righteous works system that equates to salvation based on the merits of our performance. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

Amen,, I pray God opens the hearts ,and they are bale to see this basic truth.

 

[PeterJens]

Just because they reject you Peterjens and your many strawmen, doesn't mean they worship an idol.


It just means they can't see past your strawmen to what you actually believe.


Strawmen are insulting, yet you continue to erect them. Why?


Name one person in the thread that has not said a5 least ONCE or more that good works is the Fruit of salvation and that behavior changes after a person is born again?


.yet you still erect this false straw man and have named it "idol of security".


It's insulting,

Ariel, I am not insulting anyone, I am describing a belief system which exalts one
theological idea up to the status of God, and defies the very nature of God himself.


Now many believe in security of salvation, but do not exalt it to the level of defining
their behaviour and faith. I would even argue the elect can never fall, which is why
they are the elect. But equally we do not know who is and who is not, but we are called
to love and walk righteously.


Can you read a verse that says, "Stay in sin" "Do not repent" "Accept the mess you are in"
"God will not judge you according to your deeds"


Does God reward righteousness? Does God say we should be pure, Holy, clean, blameless?
Did Christ die for the forgiveness of our sins? Are we told to restore our brothers and sisters
who have fallen into sin carefully in case we are tempted and fall likewise?


Did Jesus command us to follow Him, to obey His commands and to be His witnesses in the world?

 

[PeterJens]

lol.. You get angry then deny, Look at how mad you got at DC..

You blame shift more than any person I have ever met, That and your slander.. WHo said you had to have an idol to be saved? What you have to have is faith in christ.

You claim you have faith in christ, yet your words deceive you, Because when you speak about your faith, it is not in christ, It is in how holy you are. How many works you have done, How sinless you are. How when you do make an OOPSIE (mistake or slip up and sin) you make sure you repent of it. It is all about Peter Jenz, There is never any security in Christ spoken of by you, only in your works.

What I said still stands, The fact you do not have security IN CHRIST should make you pause, and wonder what your faith is really in..

Ignore it or deny it all you want.. Your the one who will be held accountable when you stand face to face with God.

Gob bless you, at least you are happy. Repeating the same projections which my words
do not reflect does not make you correct or truthful.

[video=youtube;wNRFumI2ch0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNRFumI2ch0[/video]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ariel, I am not insulting anyone,

When you tell someone they believe something they do not. You insult them, You slander them, You puff yourself up. and you come across as arrogant.

You do this more than any person I have ever met.

I am describing a belief system which exalts one, theological idea up to the status of God, and defies the very nature of God himself.

Thats your opinion. And your WRONG..

God sets up our status, Not mankind..

We are in christ, THAT IS A STATUS OF BEING IN CHRIST.

we were baptised IN CHRIST, that is a STATUS of being Placed into VITAL UNION WITH CHRIST.

We are part of the body of Christ, with Christ as the head THAT IS THE STATUS OF BEING IN ALIGNMENT WITH CHRIST THE HEAD,

We are called the BRIDE OF CHRIST. that is the STATUS OF BEING IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST BOUND BY LEGAL BETROTHMENT

we are called the ADOPTED children of the Father, That is the STATUS IF BEING IN A FAMILY OF GOD, MADE LEGAL HEIR, AND IN A RELATIONSHIP BOUND BY BLOOD WHICH CAN NEVER BE BROKEN

Everything the bible says about a child and God in a relation is OUR STATUS.

Open your eyes man, You will never see it if you do not get rid of your bitterness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gob bless you, at least you are happy. Repeating the same projections which my words
do not reflect does not make you correct or truthful.

You denying it does not make it go away.

When will you repent Peter?

 

[Ariel82]

He isn't bitter EG. He just believes his strawmen are actually real.

 

[Ariel82]

You sure about this?

I thought once a person was adopted. the law was done away with (it had completed its job)

To me, putting a kid under law would destroy them, because they can not uphold it ,and would always be seen as a failure (if they really looked at it the way God intended)

Yes, why do you think God chastens His children?

To teach them maturity.

Hebrews 12
4In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

12Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

Just because they reject you Peterjens and your many strawmen, doesn't mean they worship an idol.

Sad, Ariel, I am not driven like you. I am not pandering to being accepted or rejected.

I do have to resolve how an apparent group of believers would condemn me to hell for
not accepting their assurance beliefs. This only makes sense if in their minds it is their God.

And please I am not making these people into my enemies, they have made me their enemy
already, though I love them dearly. But each belief system has its rules.

With every hypothesis, you make a prediction that confirms the structure of idea, and
when confirmed by a behaviour prediction, you know you have got it right.

They believe everyone is either satan and opposed to them, or see the truth and accept
we are just hypocritical compromised people until we see Christ. There main unique point
is the touchstone of assurance, which is unique to this movement. Not very good in the longer
term after people in large numbers fall away as things fall apart. But in the short term up to 5 years
things can make sense. Like all such inspirations delivery of success keeps momentum.
Wesley created something that lasts till today.

But the idolatry of assurance will be its downfall.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He isn't bitter EG. He just believes his strawmen are actually real.

I think we disagree on the bitter part. I used to be like him, and i was bitter, until I saw the light. But we agree on the strawman. He does think they are real.. Until he breaks that, he will continue to be this way..

it is painful to have that broken, again, I know.

 

[Grace777x70]

We have blessed assurance in Christ because of what He has done. He is our Savior - we don't save ourselves. We need Him not our own humanistic self-effort attempts of creating and maintaining our own righteousness. It's a grace-nullifying work of the flesh.


[video=youtube;XOv7RmXi7VE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOv7RmXi7VE[/video]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, why do you think God chastens His children?

To teach them maturity.

I mean the part about putting a kid under the law.. He does not chasten because of the law.. Thats the part I was wondering about. making sure I understood you right,

 

[Ariel82]

Now you insult me PeterJens.

I don't "pander". I know God accepts me and I don't need anyone else approval.

 

[PeterJens]

When you tell someone they believe something they do not. You insult them, You slander them, You puff yourself up. and you come across as arrogant.

You do this more than any person I have ever met.



Thats your opinion. And your WRONG..

God sets up our status, Not mankind..

We are in christ, THAT IS A STATUS OF BEING IN CHRIST.

we were baptised IN CHRIST, that is a STATUS of being Placed into VITAL UNION WITH CHRIST.

We are part of the body of Christ, with Christ as the head THAT IS THE STATUS OF BEING IN ALIGNMENT WITH CHRIST THE HEAD,

We are called the BRIDE OF CHRIST. that is the STATUS OF BEING IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST BOUND BY LEGAL BETROTHMENT

we are called the ADOPTED children of the Father, That is the STATUS IF BEING IN A FAMILY OF GOD, MADE LEGAL HEIR, AND IN A RELATIONSHIP BOUND BY BLOOD WHICH CAN NEVER BE BROKEN

Everything the bible says about a child and God in a relation is OUR STATUS.

Open your eyes man, You will never see it if you do not get rid of your bitterness.

I have no bitterness. What am I bitter about?

God bless you, may you praise the Lord and give Him all the glory through the cross,
Amen.