A WIN FOR ARMENIANISM: God gave mankind freewill

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Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#21
It does not make any sense. You are repeating that you somehow solved the problem and that God can be sovereign... but I fail to see what you mean by God being sovereign.

You pushed Him somewhere to the background and doing nothing, just watching what those free beings will do, not knowing it.
It makes sense from a Arminian and Molinistic standpoint.

God being soveirgn just means he is in control. The difference between you and me is that I believe God has decided in his soviergn will to allow us to make free willed choices. Also, it'sentirely Arminian to acknowledge that God foreknows what will happen. So, no I don't push God anywhere. I never said God just watches the free beings do anything... God has acted in various ways in the bible. He has made fire come down from the sky. He has walked on earth. He has appeared to Abraham. He has... you get the idea... And that is only the things we've read in the bible.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#22
It makes sense from a Arminian and Molinistic standpoint.

God being soveirgn just means he is in control. The difference between you and me is that I believe God has decided in his soviergn will to allow us to make free willed choices. Also, it'sentirely Arminian to acknowledge that God foreknows what will happen. So, no I don't push God anywhere. I never said God just watches the free beings do anything... God has acted in various ways in the bible. He has made fire come down from the sky. He has walked on earth. He has appeared to Abraham. He has... you get the idea... And that is only the things we've read in the bible.
HOW is He in control, if He is just watching and not knowing the result?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#23
Why are there so many threads started that have the "A-HA!!! I got you Calvinists Trapped Now!!!!!!!" objective?????

Reminds me of:




Better go back to ACME Supply and try another trap. ;)
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#24
About the serpent not being mentioned... I specifically meant that the serpent (Satan) was not mentioned as one of the creations that was created. The earth... moon.. stars.. animals... Adam and Eve were among those creations, but no mention of the serpent( Satan) being created.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#25
Genesis 3:6-7 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Adam and Eve were given freewill to choose. God did not choose for Adam and Eve to sin.

Adam & Eve were given free will to choose, and they chose to rebel against God.. But once they had chosen to rebel against God they lost free will. Their wills were tainted. Cain and Abel were not born with free will. They inherited Adam's sinful nature. And gradually prejudice, environment etc restricted 'freewill' further. They were free to choose which sins they engaged in but they were not free not to sin. ALL sinned. Full free will was no more.


Man chose. Man was in charge in that particular act, where he and she sinned, God was not in charge of that particular act. Man did it. Not God.
That was true for Adam. But when he sinned his free will was lost. From then on all men sinned. They had inherited Adam's sinful nature.

Can God be in control still? Absolutely. In his foreknowledge, in his middle knowledge (knowledge of all the possibilities), God can create man knowing that man would sin. He is in control because he decided to allow all this by fundamentally allowing man to have freewill
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God was ever 'in control'. He had foreknowledge (pre oida) of what man would do. He allowed man to sacrifice his own freewill. And He had already provided that His Son would die for sin that those whom He chose might eventually become free..

He did not have to create us. He decided to create us knowing all this, knowing the outcomes, and as scripture implies, planning for all this. Being in control does not mean God has to do everything. Otherwise, that would mean that God would have to do evil.
He allowed man to sin, knowing the consequences. He had already provided for the redemption of His chosen. How does this support Arminianism?

God was in control when Adam and Eve existed. And Adam and Eve had free will to choose right or wrong.
But once they had sinned they lost that choice They now only had the will not to do certain things .But they did not have the will to be sinless.

God said Adam and Eve were good, very good. God's sovereignty was intact. Adam and Eve's free will was intact.
But only until Adam sinned,

Both of these conditions happening at the same time are constantly thought of as impossible by Calvinists.
I cannot speak for John Calvin, but it is not impossible to me :) And YOU would call me a Calvinist, just as Paul was .

Here is a situation in the bible where that those conditions happened at the same time. It's not impossible for a sovereign God to be sovereign while all of mankind, Adam and Eve, have the free will to choose right or wrong.
Their having freewill did not override God's sovereignty, but once they had lost it sin became their master.

Bare minimum, Calvinists have to acknowledge if God knew well enough to allow Adam and Eve (all of mankind) to have free will at some point then that should at bare minimum open up the plausible idea that God can allow all of mankind to have free will again
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He can, but He did not. Man was no longer free not to sin. ALL sinned.

Armenianism proposes something called prevenient grace. This means that when mankind hears God's word mankind's free-will is restored just as if Adam and Eve's free will was in the Garden of Eden.
There is no evidence of this in Scripture. Man has never had free will since Adam's fall.

One of the strengths of Armenianism is that it can answer all objections.
But it cannot restore free will Nor can it explain the scripture about God's choosing of His own satisfactorily.
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#26
HOW is He in control, if He is just watching and not knowing the result?
Again, I said he does know the results. And he is in control because he has foreknown our actions and the infinite amount of possibilities of how we'd freely act. Who inspired the bible? Who gave the ten commandments? Who spoke to the prophets? Who has put the law into man's heart? Who will give the riches that are stored by the wicked to the righteous? Who will judge the universe? Who has given me a supernatural vision when I asked God to give me evidence of His existence?

God is active. That's how he is in control. God decided that I can decide... via previnnant grace.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#27
Again, I said he does know the results. And he is in control because he has foreknown our actions and the infinite amount of possibilities of how we'd freely act. Who inspired the bible? Who gave the ten commandments? Who spoke to the prophets? Who has put the law into man's heart? Who will give the riches that are stored by the wicked to the righteous? Who will judge the universe? Who has given me a supernatural vision when I asked God to give me evidence of His existence?

God is active. That's how he is in control. God decided that I can decide... via previnnant grace.
But we do not freely act. We are limited by our prejudice, upbringing, environment, social pressures, sinful inclinations , etc. We do not have the power to choose freely never to sin.

We have inherited the tendency to sin, and the tendency to be free not to do God's will. We have thus lost the ability freely to respond to God. This is what Scripture reveals.

God has not left it to us. He knows that no one would ever be saved. No man chooses God freely. Thus He chooses whom He will save.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#28
Again, I said he does know the results. And he is in control because he has foreknown our actions and the infinite amount of possibilities of how we'd freely act.
God isn't in control due to ("because he has") anything outside of His Person.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#29
Why are there so many threads started that have the "A-HA!!! I got you Calvinists Trapped Now!!!!!!!" objective?????

Reminds me of:




Better go back to ACME Supply and try another trap. ;)
Its OK, this thread is only saying that Armenia won something :)
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#30
Its OK, this thread is only saying that Armenia won something :)
I didn't even know it went to war. The media never tells us what is really going on, all propaganda and no news. #fakenews :p ;)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#31
Again, I said he does know the results. And he is in control because he has foreknown our actions and the infinite amount of possibilities of how we'd freely act. Who inspired the bible? Who gave the ten commandments? Who spoke to the prophets? Who has put the law into man's heart? Who will give the riches that are stored by the wicked to the righteous? Who will judge the universe? Who has given me a supernatural vision when I asked God to give me evidence of His existence?

God is active. That's how he is in control. God decided that I can decide... via previnnant grace.
How exactly can He foreknow anything, if things are not certain to happen?

Or do you want to say that He is prepared for infinite number of alternatives? So the cross was just a plan B (or C or....)?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#32
I'd gather from this threads OP and its arguments that we now have a "god" who is learning (Open Theism) and, what is going on in the world is really not in His control, but is only one of billions of scenarios that could have taken place (Molinism).

Yes, I'm aware, the OP says God is in control (because of things outside His person that He views). So, God is reactive not proactive (in which case His sovereignty takes a hit).

It's all a logical fallacy, circular reasoning and probably category error as well. All this means is there are so many problems happening in the OP position and argumentation it's like whack-a-mole.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#33
Adam and Eve were created innocent. They had no knowledge of sin. They did have Gods direct prohibition against eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Israel had no law until they besought Moses to obtain one from God. The Law of Moses made sin personal to the Israelites.

All the world became guilty before God with the advent of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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794
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#34
Adam and Eve were created innocent. They had no knowledge of sin. They did have Gods direct prohibition against eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Israel had no law until they besought Moses to obtain one from God. The Law of Moses made sin personal to the Israelites.

All the world became guilty before God with the advent of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Uhm.... what?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#35
Adam and Eve were created innocent. They had no knowledge of sin. They did have Gods direct prohibition against eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Israel had no law until they besought Moses to obtain one from God. The Law of Moses made sin personal to the Israelites.

All the world became guilty before God with the advent of Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Soooo...you just get to rewrite the narrative? :confused:
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#37
Soooo...you just get to rewrite the narrative? :confused:
Correcting this narrative seems necessary. Some here are taking this off on a tangent to mitigate it's value.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#38
Again, I said he does know the results. And he is in control because he has foreknown our actions and the infinite amount of possibilities of how we'd freely act. Who inspired the bible? Who gave the ten commandments? Who spoke to the prophets? Who has put the law into man's heart? Who will give the riches that are stored by the wicked to the righteous? Who will judge the universe? Who has given me a supernatural vision when I asked God to give me evidence of His existence?

God is active. That's how he is in control. God decided that I can decide... via previnnant grace.
Previnnant grace? Sounds likes a prescription medication.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#40
Correcting this narrative seems necessary. Some here are taking this off on a tangent to mitigate it's value.
It's not this (the OP) narrative you are correcting (or attempting to correct). You are rewriting the narrative of the fall and impact of sin on mankind, you have bad chronology, shoddy theology &c. That was my point, obviously I wasn't clear. My apologies.

Are you also a Molinst and Open Theist, sir?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I like your signature but honestly I think it's your cause you're preaching here. Why? You've totally rewritten the narrative of the fall of man and have the chronology and facts askew. Scripture doesn't support either the view of the OP nor yours, sir.

Really there is no need to say that others have taken this off on a tangent. That's a cop out and emotional plea with an unfounded basis. It is meant to deride others instead of actually engaging in the facts of the thread.

Stay on topic, not on feelings of others?
 
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