The Rapture

[VCO]

1 thes 4 says "the dead in Christ".

Those are NOT OT saints.

One more Popeye:

O.T. Saints were those who believed GOD would send the Messiah.

N.T. Saints are those who believe GOD DID send the Messiah.

IT IS THE SAME FAITH.

NOW explain how they are NOT IN THE MESSIAH.

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.


Psalm 51:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not banish me from Your presence or take Your Holy Spirit from me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Restore the joy of Your salvation to me, and give me a willing spirit.

 

[Katy-follower]

The rapture will occur at the end of time and I may or may not be there. But it won't be for the reason you give.



I have no doubt that NO CHRISTIAN will be left behind

From some of Bladerunner's posts on this I've concluded that he believes in a "partial rapture" of believers, which is the idea that immature/backsliden christians will get left behind to go through the tribulation, while only faithful mature believers will get raptured.

I think the root of this belief is a wrong interpretation of the virgins parable. I think some believe those without the oil are believers who are not ready for the rapture. But reading on, the scriptures confirm that they are not true believers, because Jesus says to them "I do not know you" which also lines up with Matthew 7:21-23 where many on judgment day will profess to be christians but they were never truly saved. He will say "I never knew you".

 

[valiant]

From some of Bladerunner's posts on this I've concluded that he believes in a "partial rapture" of believers, which is the idea that immature/backsliden christians will get left behind to go through the tribulation, while only faithful mature believers will get raptured.

I think the root of this belief is a wrong interpretation of the virgins parable. I think some believe those without the oil are believers who are not ready for the rapture. But reading on, the scriptures confirm that they are not true believers, because Jesus says to them "I do not know you" which also lines up with Matthew 7:21-23 where many on judgment day will profess to be christians but they were never truly saved. He will say "I never knew you".

As usual they get their doctrine from a wrong interpretation of parables.

 

[Muzungu256]

In other words there will be no 1000 years of Jesus' reign on earth.

the amillennial position is that we are in the gospel age now........ the millenium is now........ and then falling away and persecution and Jesus comes back and resurrection and judgment into eternity!!! this age and the age to come which is eternal as shown in mark3.
i have listened to all the arguments and the reason i arrived and locked in my amillennial position is because i feel its what the new testament in particular teaches 2peter3:10-15 etc....

 

[popeye]

One more Popeye:

O.T. Saints were those who believed GOD would send the Messiah.

N.T. Saints are those who believe GOD DID send the Messiah.

IT IS THE SAME FAITH.

NOW explain how they are NOT IN THE MESSIAH.

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. [\QUOTE]

Again,then BORN AGAIN saints need only abstract conversion to Jewery,and no orthodox Jew needs the new covenant under your logic. They are the same.

Watch this: The devil believes and never will be saved....ever.


OT saints were JUSTIFIED by faith. Upon death they went to paradise. Jesus emptied paradise,then those same patrirchs rose from the sea and were seen.

You are implying they DIED AGAIN.

Play it out. You are off on several points.

In order for your scenario to work,you need my components out of the way.

Compare ALL INGREDIENTS,including Jesus words to the thief,and Abrahams bosom in paradise.

Otherwise you are positioning yourself under "condemnation before investigation"

 

[popeye]

the amillennial position is that we are in the gospel age now........ the millenium is now........ and then falling away and persecution and Jesus comes back and resurrection and judgment into eternity!!! this age and the age to come which is eternal as shown in mark3.
i have listened to all the arguments and the reason i arrived and locked in my amillennial position is because i feel its what the new testament in particular teaches 2peter3:10-15 etc....

Then,under that model,the GT and antichrist is done and history,and the devil is chained up.

That dog will not hunt

 

[popeye]

From some of Bladerunner's posts on this I've concluded that he believes in a "partial rapture" of believers, which is the idea that immature/backsliden christians will get left behind to go through the tribulation, while only faithful mature believers will get raptured.

I think the root of this belief is a wrong interpretation of the virgins parable. I think some believe those without the oil are believers who are not ready for the rapture. But reading on, the scriptures confirm that they are not true believers, because Jesus says to them "I do not know you" which also lines up with Matthew 7:21-23 where many on judgment day will profess to be christians but they were never truly saved. He will say "I never knew you".

Remove the osas logic and poof! We can now call virgins,virgins.

Under your logic,You have non believers,heathens,as pure and undefiled,having run out of oil,and asking the " true believers" for some of their own salvation.

That osas concept requires a modification of the virgin parable.

 

[popeye]

As usual they get their doctrine from a wrong interpretation of parables.

Ironically,it is us that are allowed to call virgins,virgins.

I don't need those parables distorted. Your logic,on the other hand,REQUIRES it.

 

[popeye]

One more Popeye:

O.T. Saints were those who believed GOD would send the Messiah.

N.T. Saints are those who believe GOD DID send the Messiah.

IT IS THE SAME FAITH.

NOW explain how they are NOT IN THE MESSIAH.

Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. [\QUOTE]

Again,then BORN AGAIN saints need only abstract conversion to Jewery,and no orthodox Jew needs the new covenant under your logic. They are the same.

Watch this: The devil believes and never will be saved....ever.


OT saints were JUSTIFIED by faith. Upon death they went to paradise. Jesus emptied paradise,then those same patrirchs rose from the sea and were seen.

You are implying they DIED AGAIN.

Play it out. You are off on several points.

In order for your scenario to work,you need my components out of the way.

Compare ALL INGREDIENTS,including Jesus words to the thief,and Abrahams bosom in paradise.

Otherwise you are positioning yourself under "condemnation before investigation"

Correction....."rose from the dead"....not sea

 

[Muzungu256]

Then,under that model,the GT and antichrist is done and history,and the devil is chained up.

That dog will not hunt

the devil is chained from doing what?????????????????? its like a dog on a leash............... cannot stop the gospel from spreading!!!!!!!!!

 

[PlainWord]

It is in God's world...only what 2 days?

Yes, because there is no time in heaven. Time is relative and based on increments of travel of the earth around the sun. Therefore time is different on each planet. If you were on the sun, would there be any time since the sun can't revolve around itself?

The point of using the word, "near" isn't meant to describe time on heaven, it is meant to describe time on earth and particularly to those 7 churches. The term "near" to them meant they could expect these things to happen in their near future. That's why Rev is mostly about 1st century events.

 

[PlainWord]

Popeye,,,, those OT patriarchs whose souls were taken to heaven with Jesus are awaiting the Rapture so their bodies can be reunited with their souls, thus enabling the transformation of a mortal body to an immortal body.

Those saints under the altar are not there yet. They are some of the ones left behind after the Rapture. They were the ones who knew God yet for what ever reason did not truly believe in HIM. Now, they understand what has happened and realize they needed to change their mindset.

This is all wrong. Yes Christ ministered to the souls during those three days and those that accepted Him, their souls went to heaven. This means the souls under the alter who were killed by the wicked of their day were indeed martyrs and were not "left behind." When God the Father and Son returned in 70 AD, all souls in heaven came with them to receive their resurrected bodies. The living believers who were still alive and remaining were caught up with them and they also received glorified bodies. After judgment was passed on Jerusalem and Israel, that Mosaic age came to an end. Everyone in glorified bodies returned to heaven.

Now that we are in a new age (since 70 AD), the "rules" have changed. We no longer need to wait for a resurrection as we go immediately from death to life. When a believer dies, they immediately receive their glorified new incorruptible spiritual body and immediately go to heaven. The rest of the dead, the unbelievers, have to wait for the "thousand" years to finish. Then they will be resurrected and judged.

We are in the millennium now and Christ and the saints are reigning in heaven and earth in the spiritual realm, right now!!

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, [SUP]2 [/SUP]looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

FYI, these "clouds" are spiritual saints and they are all around us as the writer of Hebrews teaches.

 

[PlainWord]

1 thes 4 says "the dead in Christ".

Those are NOT OT saints.

Correct good buddy, they were first century Christians. The age ended with the resurrection and rapture of 2,000 years worth of OT Jews and NT Christians and anyone else who responded positively to Christ's ministering during those 3 days.

 

[PlainWord]

St. Irenaeus (c. 130–202), an early Christian Premillennialist.

Irenaeus and Justin represent two of the most outspoken premillennialists of the pre-Nicean church. Other early premillennialists included Pseudo-Barnabas,[SUP][21][/SUP] Papias,[SUP][22][/SUP] Methodius, Lactantius,[SUP][23][/SUP] Commodianus[SUP][24][/SUP] Theophilus, Tertullian,[SUP][25][/SUP] Melito,[SUP][26][/SUP] Hippolytus of Rome, Victorinus of Pettau [SUP][27][/SUP][SUP][28][/SUP] and various Gnostics groups and the Montanists. Many of these theologians and others in the early church expressed their belief in premillennialism through their acceptance of the sexta-septamillennial tradition.

So are almost all Evangelicals, Messianic Christians, Grace Bretheran Churchs, Bible Churches, Community Churches, Plymouth Bretheran, etc.

Eusebius of Caesarea
Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine
(263 - 339)

"One of the best known and most accessible of the ancient preterists" Ken Gentry

​

“And from that time a succession of all kinds of troubles afflicted the whole nation and their city until the last war against them, and the final siege, in which destruction rushed on them like a flood [Dan. 9:26] with all kinds of misery of famine [Matt. 24:7], plague [Luke 21:21] and sword [Luke 21:24], and all who had conspired against the Saviour in their youth were cut off; then, too, the abomination of desolation stood in the Temple [Matt. 24:15], and it has remained there even till to-day, while they [i.e., the Jews] have daily reached deeper depths of desolation.” (The Proof of the Gospel, trans. W. J. Ferrar, 2 vols. in 1 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1981), 2:138, (403: b-c).)

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ. Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies...The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." (Demonstratio Evangelica VIII)

You have then in this prophecy of the Descent of the Lord among men from heaven, many other things foretold at the same time, the rejection of the Jews, the judgment on their impiety, the destruction of their royal city, the abolition of the worship practised by them of old according to the Law of Moses; and on the other hand, promises of good for the nations, the knowledge of God, a new ideal of holiness, a new law and teaching coming forth from the land of the Jews. I leave you to see, how wonderful a fulfilment, how wonderful a completion, the prophecy has reached after the Coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VI - Chapter 13)

"I have already considered this prophecy among the passages. And I have pointed out that only from the date of our Saviour Jesus Christ's Coming among men have the objects of Jewish reverence, the hill called Zion and Jerusalem, the buildings there, that is to say, the Temple, the Holy of Holies, the Altar, and whatever else was there dedicated to the glory of God, been utterly removed or shaken, in fulfilment of the Word which said: "Behold the Lord, the Lord comes forth from his place, and he shall descend on the high places of the earth, and the mountains shall be shaken under him." (Demonstratio Evangelica ; Book VIII - Chapter 3)

"When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our own day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, has come, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated to have been clearly fulfilled." (Demonstratio Evangelica; Book VIII)

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." (III, 5:4)

​

 

[popeye]

the devil is chained from doing what?????????????????? its like a dog on a leash............... cannot stop the gospel from spreading!!!!!!!!!

Ok,your logic requires a parallel component.

The Devil is not tempting believers. Correct?

 

[PlainWord]

Then,under that model,the GT and antichrist is done and history,and the devil is chained up.

That dog will not hunt

That dog did in fact hunt and brought back so much food for our nourishment. I'm eating all kinds of steak, lobster, deer, chicken, duck, you name it. What are you eating? Kale?.

The GT took place from 66-70 AD
The False Christ was revealed in 70 AD and he led 6,000 to their deaths at the temple in Jerusalem.
The devil had been chained up from deceiving the nations. I think he is probably loose now and the nations are again being deceived.

 

[popeye]

the amillennial position is that we are in the gospel age now........ the millenium is now........ and then falling away and persecution and Jesus comes back and resurrection and judgment into eternity!!! this age and the age to come which is eternal as shown in mark3.
i have listened to all the arguments and the reason i arrived and locked in my amillennial position is because i feel its what the new testament in particular teaches 2peter3:10-15 etc....

I got saved in an amillineal church.

It is a nobrainer that the GT and AC are both future,making the millennium future also.

You do realize that immediately before the millineum is Armageddon and Jesus coming with the saints on white horses.

You do realize amillinealism is 100% impossible?

 

[popeye]

That dog did in fact hunt and brought back so much food for our nourishment. I'm eating all kinds of steak, lobster, deer, chicken, duck, you name it. What are you eating? Kale?.

The GT took place from 66-70 AD
The False Christ was revealed in 70 AD and he led 6,000 to their deaths at the temple in Jerusalem.
The devil had been chained up from deceiving the nations. I think he is probably loose now and the nations are again being deceived.

So,the latest news prompted that Last sentence?

" he is chained but gets loose sometimes"

Lol

 

[valiant]

I got saved in an amillineal church.

pity you backslid

It is a nobrainer that the GT and AC are both future,making the millennium future also.

The great tribulation began for the Jews around 70ad and continues to the present. There has never been anything like it before or since. The antichrist was around in Roman days, and continues around now in different forms. Anyone who sets himself up as a 'Christ' is the anti christ. There is to be no millennium

You do realize that immediately before the millineum is Armageddon and Jesus coming with the saints on white horses.

No it is after the millennium which is NOW. Jesus coming is at the end of time.

You do realize amillinealism is 100% impossible?

You wish LOL

 

[PlainWord]

These were the "days of Noah."

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

This is probably what the devil was chained up to prevent from doing. Not to say there hasn't been plenty of evil through the centuries, but the wickedness on earth now is probably as bad as its been since 70 AD. In 70 AD, Israel had become more wicked than her surrounding nations (I forgot the OT passage). This was one of the reasons for her destruction and tribulation.

Today we have gay marriage, acceptance of transgenders as "normal" and murder of unborn babies not just as a right but a celebration of the left. As a quasi-historian, I can't think of a period where the entire planet has been this wicked and the wickedness is accelerating at a break neck pace.