A WIN FOR ARMENIANISM: God gave mankind freewill

[Magenta]

Man has self will, just as Adam and Eve did. They exercised self will
and put it before the will of God. Mankind still has this choice today.

It baffles me how anyone can say that Jesus did not die for the sins
of the whole world, when Scripture plainly states the fact that He did.

Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world does not automatically
equate into everyone being saved. This is where the will of man
comes into play. God desires that all repent and come to a knowledge
of truth. Will all repent of their rebellion against God? Apparently not.

Therefore, even though Jesus died to pay the sin debt of the whole world,
the pride of life and the lusts of the flesh (which is at enmity with God)
prevent man from laying down their opposition to God and choosing God.

God moves in the life of the person who seeks sincerely. God promises to
reveal Himself to those who seek Him, even while we are also told that
there are none who seek Him. And yet, there are those who seek the
meaning and purpose of life. Jesus Christ is the meaning and purpose of life.

Jesus began His earthly ministry exhorting people to repent and believe.

He invites us to come to Him. That He enables us to do so does not mean
He is forcing us to make that choice. It is certain that you are going to
continue living today, or that you will die. God knows which one it is.
We do not. Therefore, the sooner you make the choice, the better for you,
because you never know when your life might end, and all choice removed.

God knows what is best for us despite our rebellion against Him. Choose life.
Jesus invites your response. God's plan is to extend life ever after to those
who choose to live by the will of God through the shedding of Jesus' blood.

That is my understanding. I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian I agree with
the fact that man is sinful and becomes a slave to sin and that it is the grace of
God moving in our lives that allows us to choose Him, though we are not forced.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Man's will is no longer valid ,because they chose to be their own god. I will do what I want to do is man"s will. I will serve the Lord thy God,and worship him is God's will.

 

[Sac49]

To answer this question of "free will", for God or man, is also to pose other questions. Is man capable of choosing God without the intervention of the Holy Spirit? Can man choose to follow God completely on his own? And then also can God do anything that is opposed to His nature? If you can answer "yes" to any of these questions then also support it by Scripture.

 

[Magenta]

Man's will is no longer valid ,because they chose to be their own god. I will do what I want to do is man"s will. I will serve the Lord thy God,and worship him is God's will.

That is true, man puts himself on the throne and displaces God, and yet, God invites all to surrender, to come to Him, to repent of their disbelief, and choose life through Jesus Christ, Who willingly laid down His life that we might have a life more abundant through His resurrection to new life. We are first born of the flesh in Adam, and require being born again of the Spirit of God through Jesus Christ, Who is the second Adam, or we shall have out names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, and pass into the second death following the resurrection and judgment of all. The flesh counts for nothing. Jesus Christ is the Light and Life of men.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Free will is being able to choose what it is you want to do without someone stopping you from doing it. Your will against God's will is having it your way. Just as Adam and Eve did. God did not stop them from eating from the tree. The flesh was weak from day one or the fall would not have happened. The things that were hidden from them was the things that would corrupt them.

 

[maxwel]

I'd gather from this threads OP and its arguments that we now have a "god" who is learning (Open Theism) and, what is going on in the world is really not in His control, but is only one of billions of scenarios that could have taken place (Molinism).

Yes, I'm aware, the OP says God is in control (because of things outside His person that He views). So, God is reactive not proactive (in which case His sovereignty takes a hit).

It's all a logical fallacy, circular reasoning and probably category error as well. All this means is there are so many problems happening in the OP position and argumentation it's like whack-a-mole.

We'd might all do better if instead of making straw men for each other, we'd actually listen to each other.



A. The OP never said God is "learning", or that God doesn't know everything, or that God doesn't know everything in advance.
B. Molinism has nothing to do with God being out of control... it is rather to assert a particular method of control which differs from the Calvinist. (Molinism does not make God reactive instead of proactive; it is just the opposite of what you stated.)



You've created a straw man for the OP, accusing him of saying things he never said.
You've created a straw man for molinism, defining it to advocate beliefs it doesn't advocate.


* I think if you want to debate Calmador, or Arminianism, or Molinism, that's GREAT!

* But it would be a beautiful thing if we could deal with what they actually say and believe... instead of just injecting straw men into everything.

* Calamador CLEARLY started this thread as a "gotcha", to start another debate with Calvinists... but that doesn't make it reasonable to respond by accusing him of things he neither says nor affirms.



A little patience and reason would go a long way...

on both sides of this issue.


NOTE:
I won't be responding again in this thread.
This is genuinely all I have to say.
Have fun everyone.

 

[Magenta]

Free will is being able to choose what it is you want to do without someone stopping you from doing it. Your will against God's will is having it your way. Just as Adam and Eve did. God did not stop them from eating from the tree. The flesh was weak from day one or the fall would not have happened. The things that were hidden from them was the things that would corrupt them.

I prefer the term self will. The term "free will" gets bogged down
in too many issues that have nothing to do with salvation

God did prevent Adam and Eve from eating of the Tree of Life
after they sinned, so they would not live forever in their sinful state.

 

[Sac49]

Free will is being able to choose what it is you want to do without someone stopping you from doing it. Your will against God's will is having it your way. Just as Adam and Eve did. God did not stop them from eating from the tree. The flesh was weak from day one or the fall would not have happened. The things that were hidden from them was the things that would corrupt them.

Biblical proof of "free will"?

 

[valiant]

Free will is being able to choose what it is you want to do without someone stopping you from doing it.

That is not freewill. Freewill is being able to think freely without constraints and being able to act upon it.

 

[Sac49]

The problem of "free will" is that it is never mentioned in Scripture. If man does have "free will" then it also means that God is not Sovereign because man could do things that God would not know about. We could make choices outside the realm of the omniscience of God which would also say that God is not omniscient.

 

[Gabriel2020]

I disagree. read my post about free will. the will is free because there was no boundaries, or barriers set against it.. Adam and Eve could freely eat from the trees in the garden, so they were willing to do so, and they did.

 

[MattforJesus]

God cannot choose who will be saved without their input,for then His kingdom would not be true love,but the saints would only love Him,because they have no choice but to love Him,seeing no other alternative,and the greatest love of all would have true love as part of His kingdom,for if the saints did not have a choice,then people would have greater love between each other,than God and His people.

God cannot choose who will not be saved without their input,for then He would be evil for condemning people who have no choice but to do wrong,and reject God and His truth.

So God has to give us a choice,but He still gets the glory,and without His interceding in our life we would never find the truth,for we may do good,but we can never overcome the flesh enough to inherit eternal life.

Many are called but few are chosen,and not many noble,not many wise after the flesh,and not many mighty,are called.

God calls many people whose actions,and heart condition is right,that He can work with them to bring them to the truth.

No person says Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit.

Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God.

Peter said,Jesus is Christ,the Son of the living God,and Jesus said,flesh and blood did not reveal that to you,but My Father in heaven.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

No one can come to the truth without God interceding in their life to bring them to the truth,but when a person is at the door they have to make the final push through the door,and make that decision.

We did not choose God,but He chose us,still applies,for when He called people,and worked with them from that point on to bring them to the truth,they could of not gotten to the point of opening the door unless God helped them to get there,and He chooses them when they push past the door.

Nobody when they get to the door can actually go through the door if they do not have the right perspective of the Christian way,which some do not have the right perspective,and do not receive the Spirit,at least not at that time for some people.

But they have been called,so when they get to the door,God will keep working with them to bring them to the right perspective of the Christian walk,and if they realize,and heed to it,then they have gone through the door,and will receive the Spirit.

Many people get to the door,but some do not get past the door,for many are called but few are chosen,and some have a form of godliness,but they deny the power thereof,ever learning and never able to come to the truth to get past the door.

The Bible says that God wants all to be saved,and the Spirit and bride say,anybody can have that salvation,and God had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as the saints having salvation in the beginning,like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,for if it is a plan to happen in the future,it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Many are called but few are chosen,and no one says Jesus is Lord and Savior except by the Holy Ghost,and there are many people that claim that,but some have not went through the door yet,but God has not given up on them,but will keep working with them to get them to realize the Christian faith in the truth.

God only blesses with our needs,and not our wants,and if we have the means to help other people,then we have to help them,for if not,Paul said we err from the faith,James said faith without works is dead,and John said the love of God is not in them.Anybody that preaches God blesses with material,and monetary gain,for personal use other than our needs,from such withdraw yourself.

Abstain from fleshy lusts,that war against the soul.

Love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The lust of the flesh,and the lust of the eyes,and the pride of life,is not of the Father,but is of the world.

Those that name the name of Christ must depart from iniquity.

But when a person does receive the Spirit,they may sin,but they are to not hold unto it,and keep allowing the Spirit to lead them,and God knows if we are giving it up,or not.

Our walk with Christ has to be strict,but it cannot be so strict as to deny us because of sin,for it might happen,and even if a person lived in sin for a year it can still be forgiven,but it is a gamble,but the best thing to do is not hold unto it.

Love does not think an evil thought,and rejoices not in iniquity,but rejoices in the truth.

 

[Gabriel2020]

you must act upon your thoughts. you said just what i said, but in your own way.

 

[valiant]

I disagree. read my post about free will. the will is free because there was no boundaries, or barriers set against it.. Adam and Eve could freely eat from the trees in the garden, so they were willing to do so, and they did.

and no one has had free will since

 

[valiant]

God cannot choose who will be saved without their input,for then His kingdom would not be true love,but the saints would only love Him,because they have no choice but to love Him,seeing no other alternative,

God CANNOT? Who are you to speak for God with your petty philosophy. God can and does choose who will be saved (Rom 9).

and the greatest love of all would have true love as part of His kingdom,for if the saints did not have a choice,then people would have greater love between each other,than God and His people.

LOL Who are you that speaks against God?

God cannot choose who will not be saved without their input,for then He would be evil for condemning people who have no choice but to do wrong,and reject God and His truth.

God can and does. You may think Him evil if you wish. Men choose to do evil with their limited wills. He has a right to judge them.

So God has to give us a choice

,

God HAS to? Be careful what you say about God. HE said that He had chosen us before the foundation of the world.

but He still gets the glory,and without His interceding in our life we would never find the truth,for we may do good,but we can never overcome the flesh enough to inherit eternal life.

Of course He gets the glory, we deserve none.

I do love these people who know better than God

 

[Calmador]

From the 2nd London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689...

Chapter 4: Of Creation

2._____ After God had made all other creatures, he created man, male and female, with reasonable and immortal souls, rendering them fit unto that life to God for which they were created; being made after the image of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it, and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject to change.
( Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 1:26; Romans 2:14, 15; Genesis 3:6 )

In God's own will, in his wisdom, God decided to give mankind free will. So, why is it so bad to think he may do it again? This gives Arminianism crediblity... and less credibility to Calvinism.

What God has done... most importantly, what God did in what we may call what is the perfect world like... is in line with Arminianism, not Calvinism.

After the fall, while mankind can't seek God... that does not mean God can't restore mankind's freewill to the state that it was in the Garden of Eden. That IS what God wanted and made happen.

So, think why would God allow mankind such a free will? Why didn't God just CAUSE mankind to sin. After all, God is the cause of everything? Because if God did cause mankind to sin then God would be the cause of sin. However, because God let mankind do what he wills by mankind's own liberty then mankind is to blame for his downfall.

This is why admitting that Adam and Eve had freewill destroys Calvinism.

So, in Calvinism there's two kinds of free will. The Arminiain freewill which was originally given by God, by His will, in the Garden of Eden... and later on... after the fall... what you could call the commonly talked about Calvinistic freewill. I think there's something off about that. As I see it, it seems convenient to use freewill one way before the fall and use a different kind of free will after the fall.

 

[kaylagrl]

Man has self will, just as Adam and Eve did. They exercised self will
and put it before the will of God. Mankind still has this choice today.

It baffles me how anyone can say that Jesus did not die for the sins
of the whole world, when Scripture plainly states the fact that He did.

Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world does not automatically
equate into everyone being saved. This is where the will of man
comes into play. God desires that all repent and come to a knowledge
of truth. Will all repent of their rebellion against God? Apparently not.

Therefore, even though Jesus died to pay the sin debt of the whole world,
the pride of life and the lusts of the flesh (which is at enmity with God)
prevent man from laying down their opposition to God and choosing God.

God moves in the life of the person who seeks sincerely. God promises to
reveal Himself to those who seek Him, even while we are also told that
there are none who seek Him. And yet, there are those who seek the
meaning and purpose of life. Jesus Christ is the meaning and purpose of life.

Jesus began His earthly ministry exhorting people to repent and believe.

He invites us to come to Him. That He enables us to do so does not mean
He is forcing us to make that choice. It is certain that you are going to
continue living today, or that you will die. God knows which one it is.
We do not. Therefore, the sooner you make the choice, the better for you,
because you never know when your life might end, and all choice removed.

God knows what is best for us despite our rebellion against Him. Choose life.
Jesus invites your response. God's plan is to extend life ever after to those
who choose to live by the will of God through the shedding of Jesus' blood.

That is my understanding. I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian I agree with
the fact that man is sinful and becomes a slave to sin and that it is the grace of
God moving in our lives that allows us to choose Him, though we are not forced.

Could not be more plain,well said and explained sister.

 

[valiant]

In God's own will, in his wisdom, God decided to give mankind free will. So, why is it so bad to think he may do it again? This gives Arminianism crediblity... and less credibility to Calvinism.

Forget Arminianism and Calvinism. If you say God gave man free will (rather than limited will) SHOW US IT IN THE BIBLE. He gave it once and look what happened.

What God has done... most importantly, what God did in what we may call what is the perfect world like... is in line with Arminianism, not Calvinism.

But God Hasn't done it.

After the fall, while mankind can't seek God... that does not mean God can't restore mankind's freewill to the state that it was in the Garden of Eden. That IS what God wanted and made happen.

He just forgot to mention it?

So, think why would God allow mankind such a free will? Why didn't God just CAUSE mankind to sin.

That would have been evil.

After all, God is the cause of everything? Because if God did cause mankind to sin then God would be the cause of sin.

Exactly

However, because God let mankind do what he wills by mankind's own liberty then mankind is to blame for his downfall.

Mankind is to blame for his own actions, free will or not.

This is why admitting that Adam and Eve had freewill destroys Calvinism.

Rubbish LOL

So, in Calvinism there's two kinds of free will. The Arminiain freewill which was originally given by God, by His will, in the Garden of Eden... and later on... after the fall... what you could call the commonly talked about Calvinistic freewill.

God did not give Arminian freewill. He gave absolute freewill to Adam. I think you have misunderstood calvinism

I think there's something off about that. As I see it, it seems convenient to use freewill one way before the fall and use a different kind of free will after the fall.

That's because you don't understand what calvinists really say

 

[Sac49]

Part of the problem of this idea of "free will" in man or God would be that if there was such a thing as "free will" then it would mean that our, or Gods, nature would be neutral. But this is not the case case as man is born with a sinful nature and God is Holy. "Free will" is only possible if the nature of the creature having this type of will is purely neutral. So how is it possible for man to have a neutral nature capable of "free will" when we in fact are born with a sinful nature? And how is it possible for God to have a neutral nature when He in fact is Holy?

 

[Desertsrose]

Part of the problem of this idea of "free will" in man or God would be that if there was such a thing as "free will" then it would mean that our, or Gods, nature would be neutral. But this is not the case case as man is born with a sinful nature and God is Holy. "Free will" is only possible if the nature of the creature having this type of will is purely neutral. So how is it possible for man to have a neutral nature capable of "free will" when we in fact are born with a sinful nature? And how is it possible for God to have a neutral nature when He in fact is Holy?

Hi Sac,

Actually it means man has a sin nature no matter how God chose to save mankind. It's all God's plan, not ours. He says we're all sinners in need of redemption. And God decided before creation how He would save mankind from their sins.

God through His grace enables us to respond to His gospel truth. Our response will either be rejection of truth or acceptance by grace through faith. It's not a work, God is the initiator and moves on us with His truth through the preaching of the good news.

Because God allows me to respond to His truth in faith, by no means does it mean we're neutral or without a sin nature. It's for that very reason that God moves on us with His previent grace, because we ARE sinners and in need of a Savior.

We see this in the book of Acts. Peter begins to preach at Pentecost his first proclamation of the gospel after being baptized in the Spirit.

1. The crowd hears the gospel being preached.
2. The grace of God moves among the crowd and their heart is pierced by the gospel.
3. Those in the crowd who through God's grace believe, they respond with a question.
4. What must we do to be saved they ask?
5. Peter says to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
5. And you will receive the Holy Spirit.

What happens?
1. Those who had received his word were baptized.
2. That day there were added about three thousand souls.