Not By Works

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

yes Dcon.

I will Always reject what is false doctrine
Heretical doctrine.
The MOST DESTRUCTIVE doctrine to come along in this present age.

Eternal Salvaton IS NOT biblical.

The ONLY WAY it could be made to sound biblical is to change what words mean and to concentrate on some idea or other without considering what YOU Always talk about... CONTEXT.

Interesting that you only consider context when it suits YOU.

Let's do this:

Let's not TALK anymore.
Let's post scripture and give our understanding of it.

Well?

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

gb9 said:

Strong's Concordance !!

LOL

I've prepared adult lessons on this.
Do persons here only use Google to learn their theology?

Maybe this is the problem?

Funny, yes it is.

I beleive since this post, I've given the meaning of believe.
I don't need Strong's concordance.

But even going by what YOU have posted above,,,

If you

AFFIRM
HAVE CONFIDENCE IN
ARE PFERSUADED OF

What JESUS taught, since it is in HIM that you BELIEVE,

wouldn't you say that you MUST DO WHAT HE TAUGHT AND PREACHED??

Yeah. That word BELIEVE does cause a big problem for the eternal salvationinsts, cheap gracers, easy believers.

EASY BELIEVERS.

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Do what you think you need to do.....I am secure in my salvation and nothing you push will change my view....the bible is replete with verses that prove faith as the means of salvation....not works.....it is also condemns a café blend of faith and works for salvation as false....keep working your way there.....and see how that works out for you....

Scripture?

Grace777x70 · Jun 19, 2017

I firmly believe this false doctrine that God throws His beloved children into hell has done more damage to the body of Christ then any other horrid thought that has been put into the mind of man by the enemy.

It completely violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place. It is a complete violation of the nature and character of God. It negates the work and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. It promotes a works-based - works-righteousness false gospel that denies the very grace of God needed to grow up in Christ. The catholic religion is a great example of this.

It is usually a complete waste of time interacting with these because no matter how much scripture you give to them - they can't see the gospel for what it really is in Christ's finished work.

They interpret every warning scripture as the believer being sent to hell even though it never says that.

This whole lose your salvation doctrine which to me is a complete denial of the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

I believe a lot of sincere believers have left the church ( not Jesus ) because they could not live this religious "sinless perfection in the flesh" Christian life that was being preached to them by some people. They loved Jesus " in their heart" but they didn't want to be a hypocrite so they backed away from the organized church.

Then there is the group that struggled with a certain sin and were never taught about grace properly and so they left because they were defeated. Constantly feeling condemned and guilty and full of shame. The legalists keep preaching at them to change!

The only change that is effective is from the true manifestation of the life of Jesus that is already in us - in our new creation and that only comes with the message of the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I believe there are thousands of Christians like this but I also believe the Lord is bringing them back to Him - only this time it will be based on the true knowledge of Him and His love and grace for them.

The Lord is bringing His beloved back to Him. Let's not have the judgmental works-based older brother who doesn't know the heart and true nature of the Father to meet them at the door of our churches instead of having the Father meet them.

I believe in preaching the love and grace of God in Christ so that believers will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Christ.

We need to build the firm foundation in Him first before we bring on the warning scriptures because we can speak of them in the wrong light and if we are not built on the foundation of Christ Himself and His finished work on the cross - it can cause us to become ship-wrecked.

Speaking the warning scriptures to those with that firm foundation in Christ is needed and they should be heeded and then they become a blessing to us and keep us centered on Christ and His life and not on the flesh with it's deceitfulness.

Walk by the flesh in this life and we will bring destruction of some sort in all our lives - from living a homosexual lifestyle to outbursts of anger, to malice, to envy, to the slandering of others in the body of Christ. They are all in the same lists together.

Let's preach and teach the love and grace of God so that we can grow up in Christ.

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Shame on you Dcon.

Do you not know that the Pharisees were following the Mosaic Law in its entirety?

Do you not know that they were keeping normal folk far away from God?

There seems to be a lot you don't know.

Again,,, no scripture.

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

gb9 said:

Not only do I agree with it gb9...

I expounded on it.

Or did you not notice or understand?

Do you have a one track mind?
All you could do is talk about what you know best...OSAS.

Try to expand your horizons...

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Scripture?

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Stop making sharp, pointed comments.
Let's see how the Holy Spirit works in you.

BTW, I have seen improvement.
I'm very encouraged.

I believe our rapport might improve.

(go figure - someone who doesn't even know English knows the word "rapport" - it's amazing!!)

eternally-gratefull · Jun 19, 2017

FranC said:

typical, try to explain something you do not understand, and then because you do not understand, make a huge mistake like this.

No Fran, eternal salvationists do not have an issue with the word believe, that is utter nonsense, The only reason you think we do Is because you do not understand us, like your buddies who are here with you, or who have departed, you think you know. Then you come of with these straw man arguments which you can not even support.

if anything, true faith ( Biblical Belief) supports our view more than you self righteous view.

1. We believe in all God says. Including the part which says even after we are saved we are still (if left to our own merit) unworthy of Gods love, why? Because God required perfection. Only zchrist lived that requirement

2. We believe in eternal security, because our faith is in God. Not how good we are, how well we can maintain our faith, or how many good deeds we do.

3. We take Gods definition of sin, not a legalists watered down definition, thus we see our sin, where they have to hide it,, why? Because of our faith in God being a loving father, not a spirit of fear.

4. We take john at his word, knowing we have eternal life (security) is the basis for remaining in faith (Biblical Belief). If you do not understand eternal security how can you claim according to John, have the power to continue use to believe? You can't, all you have is fear, or a false hope. In which you have to judge people who truely trust God, which you do all the time.

good luck with your wish washy faith, I will continue to base my faith on my eternal hope and eternal life on which God, who can not lie, promised before time began

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Who said Christ's work is not suficient??

HE DID IT ALL.
He did all He said He would.
He did all He came here to do.

Now, the question is, did He come here ONLY to die on the cross?
Or did He also come here to set up the Kingdom of God on Earth?
John 3:3,5

Really, please answer this.

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Bible-->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Workers for-->It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that work.

Bible-->If you believe that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

Workers for-->If you believe that God has raised him from the dead and do good works thou shalt be saved

Bible-->Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to mercy has he saved us.

Workers for-->Only by works of righteousness which we have done and not according to mercy has he saved us

Bible-->In the grace you are, having been saved out of faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Workers for-->In the grace you are, having been saved out of works and that of yourselves, it is not the gift of GOD, but of works so you can boast.

You're getting closer.

We ALMOST have scripture.

Keep trying.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 19, 2017

FranC said:

If he did all this, why do you doubt him?

Is he he able to save completely that which was lost

is he able to complete the work he started,

is he he able to perfect forever that which is being sanctified?

really, please, answer this for yourself you claim you have faith, but do you really?

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Another spurt.

Such a waste of breath.

I wish you good luck too Dcon.
You really need it.

1 Corinthians 4:11-21
1 Corinthians 4:16-21
1 Corinthians 4:20

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

dcontroversal said:

What makes you think I'm not secure in Christ? Or those on this thread that agree with the truth?
I'm VERY secure IN CHRIST.

John 3:16
".... that whoever BELIEVETH in HIM..."

Notice BELIEVEITH, present tense.
There goes that troublesome word again.

Maybe some Greek expert present could explain how BELIEVE doesn't mean BELIEVE...

eternally-gratefull · Jun 19, 2017

I will add, Jesus said whoever has faith (Biblical Belief) has eternal life, do we trust him? Eternal means forever, forever can. OT be lost

jesus sad in Joh. 6 whoever has faith (Biblical Belief) will never hunger or thirst never die, live forever, has eternal life, and given his assurance, he will raise them from the dead.

do we have faith, or is it all just words, did Jesus lie, or will he keep his promise?

eternally-gratefull · Jun 19, 2017

FranC said:

oh so you do belt eve in eternal security, whew, u thought you did nothing not.

wait, you just said people who did believe in eternal security do not like the word belief.

I think your speaking double talk!

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Here we have it. PROOF that you don't understand scripture...

NO Grace. The Prodigal son starts out with the Father.
Luke 15:11-12

THEN he askes his father for his interitance.
Luke 15:12b

THEN the son LEAVES THE FATHER
Luke 15:13

Things just kept getting worse and worse for this, by now, son who had become LOST.
Luke 15:16

The LOST son finally realizes his mistake.
Luke 15:17

He then decies to GO BACK to his father.
Luke 15:18-19

The father will Always take us back. JESUS said this. (no need to quote Hebrews 6:4-6 which is Paul speaking. I trust Jesus)
Luke 15:20

NOW, the father proclaims the state of the son:
THIS SON OF MINE WAS DEAD.
AND HAS COME TO LIFE AGAIN.

AGAIN means the son HAD LIFE, LOST IT, AND NOW HAS IT AGAIN.
A very simple concept to grasp.
Luke 15:24

Read some stuff on this, don't trust me.
But you'll find that I'm correct.

notuptome · Jun 19, 2017

FranC said:

Not yet. Millennial reign is the preview of the kingdom of God on the earth. Then the new heaven. new earth and new Jerusalem. All after the 1000 years and the brief final rebellion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Grace777x70 · Jun 19, 2017

Sometimes some ask - "So what happens if we no longer believe?"

True biblical faith of which the verb is called "believing" is of the heart - not in the mind per se although the renewing of the mind is needed for growing up in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This implies that anyone can stop believing even though they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. We must realize there is a difference between the heart of man and the mind of man.

We believe in the heart - not in the head. People can be messed up in their heads because of wrong thinking and false teachings and be sick in their thinking. This doesn't negate the work of Christ in their hearts - in their spirit where they are one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6;17

At what point does Jesus leave you and separate Himself from you? He did say that He would never leave you nor forsake you.

If someone could at any time "change their believing in their heart" - then that means that Paul and all the other Christians that have gone to heaven can now as an act of their own mind choose to not believe in Christ.

It's foolishness and it is a deception from the enemy to get us "working to keep our salvation". Christ Himself is our salvation - not us.

Can any Christian that is with the Lord now in heaven choose to not believe in Him in his heart? Think this through. Does he have a will to "not believe" in Chrsit now?

No - belief in Christ and true faith is born in the heart of man and we are then born-again and have been created a new creation in Christ - sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

FranC · Jun 19, 2017

stonesoffire said:

In Hebrew, we can see the actual meaning of believe.

~H539
אָמַן
'âman
aw-man'
A primitive root; properly to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; figuratively to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe, to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (in Isa_30:21; by interchange for H541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, + fail, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurse, (-ing father), (put), trust, turn to the right.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

H543
אָמֵן
'âmên
aw-mane'
From H539; sure; abstractly faithfulness; adverbially truly: - Amen, so be it, truth.
Total KJV occurrences: 30

~AMaN Means 'I Affirm' When Used at the End of a Prayer

A [ah] (H543) means I. The pictograph of an ox-head named AL (ika aleph) can mean "strong”, or “I” when used as a prefix to words because a person who experiences a phenomenon themselves (the proceeding word) will feel it the strongest.

MaN (H543) [man] means affirm. MaN means “firm” or “affirm” in the functional action sense, and AMaN means “An affirmation of firmness and support.” (AHLB#: 1290).

AMaN was used to ask IEUE to affirm, make firm, make true and make real what one had spoken just beforehand.

This ancient OBaRI sense of firmness was if their blood continued in their following generations, and possibly through their (long, thin) veins. This aligns with Lev 17:11 - ‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood,

MaN - Strongs #543: AHLB#: 1290
1290) Nm ac: Firm co: Kind ab: Sure: The pictograph m is a picture of water or other liquid such as blood, the n is a picture of a seed representing continuance. Combined these mean "blood continues". Each species (kind) continues by passing its blood to the following generation, which comes from the parent. Also the idea of strength through the blood. (eng: man; name - a reversal of the letters; animal; omen)

AMaN had several meanings relating to "MaN" (firmness).

The main one is "I affirm"

Amen, I believe.

Seen here in the NT clearly:

~The Scriptures '98+ Luk 8:12 “And those by the wayside are the ones who hear, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, lest having believed, they should be saved.

The obedience comes from the phrase "hearken unto My Voice".

Noah believed and obeyed His Voice.

But, believe doesn't always include an instruction.

Taken from both Strongs concordance and Yahweh.org

You said that BELIEVE does not ALWAYS mean instruction.

Does it mean INSTRUCTION when it's JESUS giving the instructions?

All I want to now is this, with a clear answer:

ARE WE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS AND INSTRUCTIONS JESUS LEFT US?

Or do we get to decide NOT to do what HE TAUGHT and INSTRUCTED?

Not By Works

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