Not By Works

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Apr 30, 2016
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Positional Righteousness is 2 Cor 5.21, so we agree.

I do not believe one can keep or lose their salvation.
I don't understand about "positional".
But I do like 2 Corinthians 5:21
Our righteousness is IN CHRIST.

I understand that you believe in OSAS or are a Calvinist.
We can disagree and still respect each other as Christian brothers.
I don't see this on this particular thread, but it's getting better.
I THINK. Not sure.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Amen
and those saved by works enter the kingdom of God, and are changed people. continuing to be sanctified by God, growing through tribulation, Through Trial, Through chastening Hopefully learning to love as God loved them. And not torn down by false teachers and satan who always wants to accuse them
EG

Do you think it could be possible that this is what the scriptures call 30 fold? Am thinking much about this?
 
May 12, 2017
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I don't understand about "positional".
But I do like 2 Corinthians 5:21
Our righteousness is IN CHRIST.

I understand that you believe in OSAS or are a Calvinist.
We can disagree and still respect each other as Christian brothers.
I don't see this on this particular thread, but it's getting better.
I THINK. Not sure.

The imputed righteousness of Christ gives us a position in Christ that Adam had lost. Imputed righteousness is not worked for, it is given to you as a gift and it restores our Position back with God they same Adam had.

Many work for this and it is all self-righteousness. This is what the Pharisees were doing and some modern day pharisees still do.

You cannot earn position with God, he granted position to us through the Righteousness of his dear son.

I am not OSAS nor a Calvinist I can assure you.
 
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May 12, 2017
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Meggido,
I respect and admire you for what you do.

It's a WORK!!! And some work it is.
Call it what you will....


i wanted to ask you re a sentence of yours...
First, it is not evidence of salvation, it is evidence you are a disciple of Jesus-He said so in John 15.8

What's the difference?
If you're saved, you're a disciple of Jesus.
If you're a disciple of Jesus, you're saved.

It's the same thing...

Also, Luke 7:40-43 comes to mind.
The more we are forgiven, the more we love.
Judas was a disciple but not one of us, right?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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Fruit tree's give off a fragrance before the fruit manifests.

Some things to consider on fruit bearing...

First, it is not evidence of salvation, it is evidence you are a disciple of Jesus-He said so in John 15.8

Fruit bearing is not to be confused with the Fruit of the Spirit. 2 completely different things.

Fruit of the spirit is for personal character development that should feed baby Christians. As you become a spiritual elder the fruit of the Spirit is not for you, it is for others.

Fruit bearing is planting the seed of the word in the lost and then making them disciples, who then replicate the process. The parable of the unfruitful tree in Luke 13.6-9 demonstrates this plainly

Fruit bearing is created followers of Jesus, this is bearing much fruit that Jesus talks about and nothing to do with Fruit of the Spirit or works based salvation.

Real world example of Luke 13.6-9 and what it means to bear fruit
My wife and I took on 3 people onto our ministry team about 3 years ago, that the local church probably would have left alone because they had "no fruit". All 3 were saved, born again and spirit filled and going to a local Bible college. Yet religion kept their pasts up front and center.

A- was a former drug addict, amateur porn star and black magic spiritual advisor to the drug/porn lords that owned her.
B- was a former meth cooker, dealer and abandoned her kids and served 5 years in MAXSEC Prison for women
C- was a former male same sex/hetero prostitute.

All 3 are now powerful ministers of the Gospel, preach and teach in our ministry. They all have started their own independent ministries and all were recently ordained.

A- recently graduated with a 4 year degree in Christian Counseling & is employed full time in a shelter for women that were involved in the same life she was. In addition to counselor, she is the home chaplain and is a teacher in our ministry, is a mentor and developing disciples


B- graduated 1 year ago from a 2 year Bible college, free from drugs, working as a CNA and received a 4year scholarship for nursing school. Is married and was reunited with her kids and just regained full custody of them from the state. She is a teacher in our ministry, is a mentor and developing disciples

C- graduated from 2 year Bible college 2 years ago and has a ministry reaching out to boys and men trapped in the very same past life he was. He is a preacher in our ministry and is a mentor and developing disciples


My wife and I are their accountability partners and elders and only deposit into them and make no withdrawals.

Our trees are bearing fruit of their own and in return we are bearing much fruit which glorifies the father and proves to him that we are followers of the son.

Let the flaming arrows of the religious start, but be warned the shield I have is soaked in the water and oil of the Holy Spirit and is a faith that you cannot possibly began to understand or comprehend.

All Glory in this goes to the Father
I can't see how any flaming arrow would be shot at you and your wife for anything said here. My whole view of you has just reached a higher level of respect for a godly couple working out of the love of God. Gods blessings to you both!
 
Apr 30, 2016
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I would include the idea of a 'believer' vs. a 'follower'.But, the use of the words "believe" and "follow" in the Bible have essentially the same meaning. This is referring to a living faith in God, which is an unreserved (unconditional) surrender of your will to God in full love and obedience to Him, yielding to His purposes. This is seeing Christ as worthy of your full trust and confidence and following in His example. This is allowing God to rule in your heart (Col 3:15).

Yes. If you take the meaning of BELIEVE in the Greek, it certainly means all of the above.
This may be the only time I think the Greek needs to be brought into the discussion. I usually do not believe it's necessary.



We develop a very real and personal relationship with Jesus. Questioning God or His purposes simply reveals that you have not totally died to self and there is still some rebellion within you – this is your judgment upon God’s purposes. You do not have any authority to judge God. The only one who has presumed to do such is Satan and this is the nature of his followers. To most the word "believe" is applied as a mere mental acknowledgement, agreement and acceptance of Jesus Christ and what He did, but not necessarily full commitment and submission to Him. This may be evidenced in a desire for a Savior, but not necessarily a Lord. However, anything short of full faith and commitment is hollow, unacceptable and just plain lukewarm.

Again, I agree.



Christ made a distinction between professing with your mouth and living with your heart: Matthew 15:8, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." He said such worship was in vain (v. 9). Jesus said we must die to our old lives and be "born again." Until we die to our old way, there can be no conversion (newness of life, new creature, Rm 6:4, 2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15, Col 3:10). Most just want to incorporate being a Christian into their existing life. Sort of like a membership with a get out of hell free card benefit.

Jesus either becomes your life or you have no life in Him. To mentally acknowledge Jesus is equivalent to what the devils do. James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." If you have not totally surrendered to Him then you are in rebellion just as the devils are. The devils believe, because Christ’s existence is a fact (Mk 1:34). The devils do not follow because they are in rebellion to Him and His purposes. You cannot live for self and just have Christian aspects to your life. You are either a whole-hearted follower or you are deceived. Self seeking (careers, possessions, entertainments, money, etc.) is just that and is the opposite of seeking God. This is a broad, yet temporal outlook that will never be satisfying or fulfilling (2 Cor 4:18). You're either one or the other and you are what you are – you decide. When you truly become converted, your desire will be for your Lord and not yourself.

Agree again. Jesus said you cannot serve God and mammon. It does not make the things you have in parenthesis a sin, however they cannot be loved more than God. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS righteousness...



If your belief does not fully manifest in your actions, then for what purpose is it? Being a member at a religious institution does not necessarily qualify you to be a follower. When you follow, Christ is your life twenty-four hours a day (Col 3:4, Lk 20:38). He is in your thoughts, prayers, motives, decisions and actions. Your life is not separable from Christ, for they are one in the same – this is a mystery (Eph 5:25-32). Your life revolves around Him and not you. Your actions will be weighed based upon His light. Your life is found in Christ and that relationship and not in religious activities and works. Your heart should always be to please Him and seek His will – for this you do voluntarily out of love as you seek to glorify God.

I like to say it like this: Take God with you wherever you go.
OR Every day is the Sabbath.




A believer’s faith will be tested and tried (1 Thess 2:4). This process will draw us closer to God or push us away. The heart will reveal itself under pressure and must be purified. Impurities are identified and burnt away (removed) as the purifying flame (trials and tribulations) is put to one’s life. This is a denial of the flesh and is not necessarily pleasant, but is spiritually necessary. By nature of the act, to "follow" is to submit, yield and obey.


Those whom you say are "pushed away" are the ones that I say lose their salvation. I believe we're going to disagree here.
Salvation comes by FAITH. No faith, No Salvation.




Mark 8:34, "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Jesus said, "Whosoever will." What hinders you? The narrow path is not crowded; the invitation is open to all. What is the cost? - Trading your love of self for the love of another (Jesus). John 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease." What about those who will not "come after" or "follow?" Mark 8:35-36, "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Job 27:8, "For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?" To gain self will and supposed control is to lose the life of Christ and ultimately your soul. After a life of doing what is right in your own eyes, what will you exchange for your soul (v. 37)? You have nothing to offer God nor will you take anything with you beyond the grave (Job 1:21). Will you shame Christ by rejecting Him? What goes around comes around (v. 38).



Very good! I feel like I've been to bible study.
You're very good at sharing your faith.
God bless you and what you do for Him.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
EG

Do you think it could be possible that this is what the scriptures call 30 fold? Am thinking much about this?

Matt 13? Could be, that shows that whoever receives the word and truly understands it will produce fruit. SOme 100, some 50 and some 30..

Which if I read this correct. it shows all Gods children will produce, How much though is not known, It may be alot, it may be a little. But it will not be zero
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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People walking away from the church. Why go to church when it is lifeless, When you have a sin issue you can not defeat, and you can't get help, because legalism can only judge you, not help you. You can only hide your sin so long before satan uses it to tear you down, and take you out.

In my prodigal days, I did not go to church, But if someone asked me about God, I loved hi, I knew I was saved, and I would never deny him, I just was lost in my own struggles.

In my example,

I left home to go into the military when I was 17, I felt free. I did not have to hide things anymore, I Enjoyed (or so I thought) all kinds of sin, all the things I wanted to do but was to afraid to (that's what happens when your under law) and prety much wasted many years of my life, I married a gal I should have never married, I finally did get back into church, But it was the same old stuff, having to hide so much, Then I became involved, thought that would help. But my home life was falling apart due to the military, (people do not understand the stress military puts on any family) WHen I got out, I went back to my old church, Same stuff, Only this time I was not so much worried about sins, I wanted to serve others. I taught sunday school, was involved in helping start a christian school, Ran a food pantry, Tried many things, then due to problems in the church, it crashed and burned, and split up. Again, legaism took its tole on a church.

Eventually my wife left me, And thanks to legalism, I was afraid to go to church because I was a failure, I could not even keep my family together, and we all know what God thinks about divorce, I was a sinner of all sinners..

I then fell away hard, I became a prodigal son, who left the church for 5 years.. I was angry, I was hurt, (I did not stop believing in God. or think he left me, But I was confused, and could not understand why things happened, Was it sin, Was it me, What was it,

It was not until 5 years later, My best friend, Who I helped lead to the lord when we were teens, Called me out of the blue, and my restoration started. and I started to really study and find out all the things i thought were true were legalistic hogwash, That God loved me because he created me, not because of what I did or did not do. and he wanted a real relationship with me. I was healed. I had friends I could confess my sins too, I found healing and victory over those sins, I am still to this day working as God says to be sanctified, and knowing that I have not yet made it I still need to run the race.

But my life story has me passionate about legalism, I want people to find the freedom I did. To be released from the prison that enslaves. Whether a person is saved or not, I do not know, I accepted the Lord around 7 years old, I remember it like it was yesterday, I know it changed my life for a few years, then that pastor left, and I got tore down by legalism by the pastors who followed. But I was saved, Continued to be saved even in the darkest time of my life (the footsteps in the sand picture is a reality, God realy did carry me when I thought he was gone, I just could not see it. But I see it now, My life was hard, but could have been so much worse, I am lucky to be alive)

anyway, Sorry to be so wordy, I hope this makes sense.
EG, thank you for being honest and open.
We need more of this amongst believers.

My story is similar to yours although I stopped going to church for about 12 years (I went on and off).
I actually led a very successful youth ministry.

I won't go into details about why, in fact i have gone into in previous posts here and in other threads.

I would say it was down to burnout, guilt, felt God didn't love me if I sinned and so on.

There was no freedom in my life full stop. In my own eyes I was a useless piece of crap who deserves hell but hopefully if I did enough maybe just maybe God would let me with the words "Oh well I suppose I better let you in"

Now this is shocking but it is true. The bible verses I clung onto were the ones about works being burnt up but my salvation was safe.

Now I like you are passionate, passionate about people, looking out for the wounded. One part of my ministry is walking with the wounded.

Anwyay enough about me.

The church needs to be a safe place for believers and non beleivers.
The church needs to be honest and realise there are lots of hurting people, lots of struggling people, lots of wounded people.

People who carry a lot of baggage, from the past which affects their present and you can be sure it will affect their future.

However if we can be spiritual doctors and nurses and allow God to use us to bring his healing and also Godly advice then people can be set free.

One person set free can help another, now it's 2 people. 2 people now set free who both walk with others, then it becomes 4.
And so it goes on.

I implore all beleivers to love all whom God has given us.
Lets not shoot our wounded, if someone goes MIA, seek them out, get into the battlefield with them.

Great post EG, tried to rep it but apparently I need to spread it somewhere else.

God bless

Your brother in Christ

Bill
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
EG, thank you for being honest and open.
We need more of this amongst believers.

My story is similar to yours although I stopped going to church for about 12 years (I went on and off).
I actually led a very successful youth ministry.

I won't go into details about why, in fact i have gone into in previous posts here and in other threads.

I would say it was down to burnout, guilt, felt God didn't love me if I sinned and so on.

There was no freedom in my life full stop. In my own eyes I was a useless piece of crap who deserves hell but hopefully if I did enough maybe just maybe God would let me with the words "Oh well I suppose I better let you in"

Now this is shocking but it is true. The bible verses I clung onto were the ones about works being burnt up but my salvation was safe.

Now I like you are passionate, passionate about people, looking out for the wounded. One part of my ministry is walking with the wounded.

Anwyay enough about me.

The church needs to be a safe place for believers and non beleivers.
The church needs to be honest and realise there are lots of hurting people, lots of struggling people, lots of wounded people.

People who carry a lot of baggage, from the past which affects their present and you can be sure it will affect their future.

However if we can be spiritual doctors and nurses and allow God to use us to bring his healing and also Godly advice then people can be set free.

One person set free can help another, now it's 2 people. 2 people now set free who both walk with others, then it becomes 4.
And so it goes on.

I implore all beleivers to love all whom God has given us.
Lets not shoot our wounded, if someone goes MIA, seek them out, get into the battlefield with them.

Great post EG, tried to rep it but apparently I need to spread it somewhere else.

God bless

Your brother in Christ

Bill

Thank i you for sharing, I agree, Jesus went to the sinner, he was not hold up in a church of righteous people who although according to society where the true believers, in reality were lost, but hopeless.

as it says, the healing know they need healed, if you do not understand your ill, the physician is powerless to help you.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Judas Iscariot was a disciple of Jesus and did outward works without inward change. He even stole money intended for the poor.....like many false teachers we are today who steal from widows to buy their mega jets and mansions.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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1. You don't understand why people use the term "future sins are forgiven" I don't like it because it's easily misunderstood. However, it is basically saying that God can reach down and forgive any sin...no one is so lost that God can't save them.

Yet instead of learning what the term means, you impose that folks teach a licences to sin, which is a lie that you love to repeat and hammer over and over even when people have told you it's a lie.

The question is : do you focus on your sin and how you are a sinner or do you focus on God and How He has helped you overcome sin and walk in His light,

Everyday we are called to go before God and ask Him if we have sinned or if we need to repent or change our behavior.

All God's kids get chastened and shown God's truth and way,
.if you are not chastened and taught to live godly lives, you are not a child of God.
I would say (ok it might be semantics) but God HAS forgiven All future sins that will be committed (apart from one) when Jesus died on the cross.

Of course I'm not talking about universalism here and definitely not about easy beleivism and certainly not about a license to sin.

What I do not get and find it strange and at times is angsts me that some will say that because we believe all sins are forgiven and paid for on the cross then it can be used as a license to sin and assume it is. And most who say this focus on the "Vile sins of the flesh and seem to neglect the words of Jesus when he separates the sheep from the goats.
 
May 12, 2017
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=================================================

this here is a real stumper???
If you say that you can keep your own salvation it is a self-righteous work, if you say you can lose your salvation, you are not paying attention to the word.

Imputed righteousness of Christ on a believer at conversion results in obtaining an instant right standing/justified position before God.

In imputed positional righteousness, God does not see you as a sinner anymore, he sees you righteous through the shed blood of his own Son. This is positional righteousness we do not work for and the free gift of righteousness found in Romans 5.16-18. This should not be confused with self-righteousness, which is no righteousness at all or practical righteousness that comes from us loving God, loving people and loving ourselves and entering into intimate relationship with Father.
 
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See how you are, You act all pure and righteous, then in the middle you have to put a jab and attack in there. Which is totally meaningless, because it is all based on a FALSE PREMISE of you KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING a view someone else takes. Which has been proven countless times by countless people not to be true.

News flash peter. I know it is hard for you to understand, because of the armor that you have surrounded yourself with, But you can not tel someone they have an invented form of faith WHEN YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT THEIR FORM OF FAITH IS.

That is like a person who has never studied about engines, Worked on an engine, or even watched someone work onn an engine going to them and telling them they have no idea what they are talking about, there way to fix the engine is an invented view and is not right, And they need to try to tell the mechanic how to fix the car.

but you will continue on, You will continue to bash people. continue to tell them they believe things they do not COntinue to make yourself look bad, and continue to be unable to converse with anyone, Because you refuse to try to figure out what they believe, Your right about everything, You know them better than themselves. You are a self proclaied diety who is omniscient and knows all things, and how dare anyone tell you otherwise.
Let me be frank, you take forever to say I do not know what I am talking about.

:cool: Your response was not even addressing my points.
God tests us, whether we will listen to man or to the word.

I quoted Paul talking about lessons from Israel.
I quoted revelations saying the sexually immoral will be thrown into Hell.
I showed if you can believe and then fall into unbelief, and lose your salvation,
you cannot have security of salvation.

I showed faith and actions are the reality of walking in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now the answer to this is not you know nothing about what other people believe.
I do not need to know what anyone believes just what God calls me to believe and
walk in.

The funny thing is you do not have an answer so that is the end of the story.
God bless you, and thank you for your contribution, because every response speaks
what the heart if full of. I just want to praise the Lord for His blessing of us all and
allowing us another day to sing His praises.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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See how you are, You act all pure and righteous, then in the middle you have to put a jab and attack in there. Which is totally meaningless, because it is all based on a FALSE PREMISE of you KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING a view someone else takes. Which has been proven countless times by countless people not to be true.

News flash peter. I know it is hard for you to understand, because of the armor that you have surrounded yourself with, But you can not tel someone they have an invented form of faith WHEN YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT THEIR FORM OF FAITH IS.

That is like a person who has never studied about engines, Worked on an engine, or even watched someone work onn an engine going to them and telling them they have no idea what they are talking about, there way to fix the engine is an invented view and is not right, And they need to try to tell the mechanic how to fix the car.

but you will continue on, You will continue to bash people. continue to tell them they believe things they do not COntinue to make yourself look bad, and continue to be unable to converse with anyone, Because you refuse to try to figure out what they believe, Your right about everything, You know them better than themselves. You are a self proclaied diety who is omniscient and knows all things, and how dare anyone tell you otherwise.
you description of me "You are a self proclaied diety"

This is so cruel I am struck to the core by your deep insight, nope, not a chance.
:cool:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Heb 4:12

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matt 7:2

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4

This forum is a place of sharing scripture, bdf and our walk with Christ.
You seem to want to attack me and do me harm. But I have the shield
of faith and the breast plate of righteousness. So I wonder what you are
trying to do, because these defences are designed to defend against the
enemy, and I thought you are a brother in Christ. But you do not appear
to be behaving like one, but like a wolf determined to eat me up.

But listen to James

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
James 4:7
 
Apr 30, 2016
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The imputed righteousness of Christ gives us a position in Christ that Adam had lost. Imputed righteousness is not worked for, it is given to you as a gift and it restores our Position back with God they same Adam had.

Many work for this and it is all self-righteousness. This is what the Pharisees were doing and some modern day pharisees still do.

You cannot earn position with God, he granted position to us through the Righteousness of his dear son.

I am not OSAS nor a Calvinist I can assure you.
Well then, I think we agree on everything.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
you description of me "You are a self proclaied diety"

This is so cruel I am struck to the core by your deep insight, nope, not a chance.
:cool:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Heb 4:12

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matt 7:2

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
Phil 4:4

This forum is a place of sharing scripture, bdf and our walk with Christ.
You seem to want to attack me and do me harm. But I have the shield
of faith and the breast plate of righteousness. So I wonder what you are
trying to do, because these defences are designed to defend against the
enemy, and I thought you are a brother in Christ. But you do not appear
to be behaving like one, but like a wolf determined to eat me up.

But listen to James

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
James 4:7

I hate to say it peter, but I have to consider you a lost cause,

you always think everything is about you,

you made a statement earlier that I use the term legalism in order to say we are continually trapped in sin,

1. I have never mentioned legalism and entrapment in sin.
2. I have told you 100 times what I think legalism is, and it had absolutely nothing to do with sin

at least two people have tried to tell you this, but you as always ignore any form of chastening from anyone

now we have spent how many posts trying to get you to repkent of your lie, and what do you do? Do you repent? No, you continue to skirt the issue you do not even speak of the first post that got this discussion about your false innuendo concerning me just today,and Got me to declaired your a self proclaimed deity (know it all)

dude, I do not know what world you live in, but it is not a world of reality, maybe your sick? I will pray for you, however, as I said earlier, your not normal, normal people do not continue to day after day do what you do,

However, you can count on the following,


I will continue to expose your slander when you do that to anyone

i will continue to give a counter argument any time I disagree with what you say about Gods word

If you do not like that, that's too bad. Live with it.

I will no longer try to help you learn how to discuss with anyone, or try to help you to be truthful, you speak of love and holiness, yet almost daily you commit the sin of bearing false witness. Stop trying to be a teacher of repentance and holiness, when you refuse to repent yourself


And love, love does no harm to people, it surely does not slander them with lies, all we can do is pray one day you see this,
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The imputed righteousness of Christ gives us a position in Christ that Adam had lost. Imputed righteousness is not worked for, it is given to you as a gift and it restores our Position back with God they same Adam had.

Many work for this and it is all self-righteousness. This is what the Pharisees were doing and some modern day pharisees still do.

You cannot earn position with God, he granted position to us through the Righteousness of his dear son.

I am not OSAS nor a Calvinist I can assure you.
do you believe in eternal security?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
E.g.....sometimes disengage is the best tactic.,, Jimbo actually advised me of that days ago.