Not By Works

[PeterJens]

Let us answer this accusation - It is all about self

If Christs victory is empty and has no effect on our lives, what is the point?
Because it will get us into heaven?

But everything in Jesus is about going beyond this world into God will, into
holiness, righteousness and purity.

How do you know in focusing on Jesus and the cross, repentance and faith that
this has become a reality? Because ones heart literally changes.

So the proof of the spiritual life within is the change of ones heart and the deeds
that flow without.

Now for the apostates this reality has now been called evil, and even looking for
fruit as judgmental. But it is not surprising as the fruit is not present and the
reality has not taken place, so if you distract away from this, then people will not
ask, Do I actually know Jesus?

And make no mistake these apostates know the evangelical gospel because they
used to be people of faith, which they now disown and work against.

So poison works from its root, and shows itself by overthrowing key doctrinal and
life issues. And you know the hardness of their hearts, because sin no longer cuts
them to the quick or hurts, it is just accepted as part of their daily existance.

 

[MattforJesus]

These works are not our works according to the flesh,but according to the Spirit,preach the Gospel,live godly,represent goodness,help the poor and needy.

Paul was dealing with Gentiles,and their false religions,and telling them that their works in their religion will not find them favor with God,but only by having faith in Christ,and confessing Him,can they find favor with God.

Our works are as filthy rags,and there is none that does good,no,not one,and all have sinned,and come short of the glory of God,so the only thing we can do is have faith,for we are in the flesh when we confess Christ,not having received the Spirit yet.

When we receive the Spirit we are no longer abiding by the flesh,but the Spirit,so we have to do those works to have faith active in our life,for if we do not then faith is dead,and there is no salvation,which the Bible says quench not the Spirit,work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,Paul said if he did not abstain from sin he would be a castaway,if a person does not continue in the goodness of God they will be cut off.

James said if they do not care about the poor and needy then their faith is dead,but they say it does not have anything to do with salvation,but an outward appearance of faith,but James said their faith is dead,non existent,which many people that believe that God chose them in the beginning without their input,enjoy this world's pleasures,money,material things,and neglect the poor and needy,all the while saying we are saved.When I think of these people worldliness comes to mind,and they love it so.

God said He wants no one to perish,but all come to repentance,and acknowledge the truth,and be saved,so they should stop their silly fleshy games.

Paul was dealing with Gentiles and their false religions,and said the only thing they can gave is faith,because they are in the flesh,and no works we do according to the flesh can save us.

James is dealing with people that receive the Spirit,that they have to do works of the Spirit to have faith active in their life,which there are many people that claim Christ that are not led of the Spirit,loving worldliness,fleshy pleasures,money,and material things.

When a person receives the Spirit then the responsibility falls on them,and they have to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

When we confess Christ we are in the flesh,all we can do is have faith,but when we receive the Spirit we have to have works to have faith active in our life,and we are saved by faith.

But they try to drag not by works throughout their walk with God,when it only applies when they confess Christ,because they are in the flesh,and that is all they can do.

When they receive the Spirit,then a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,and work out their own salvation with fear and trembling,for the responsibility is on them,for the Spirit will not twist their arm to do right.

If they say they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,did they receive the Spirit at all.

They cannot abstain from sin does not make sense,for they are sinning on purpose,and not forced to sin,and if they hate sin,and do not want sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,and God said do not err for if you hold unto sin,and do not get rid of it,you are not saved,for the blood of Christ cannot wash it away,and it will be on their record.

But some have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,and anybody that holds unto sin,and believes it does not affect their relationship with God,is denying the power thereof,and they are ever learning,but never able to come to the truth that they have to abstain from sin by the Spirit,and if they do sin,do not hold unto it,but get rid of it.

But we can hold unto sin for a year,and be forgiven,but before a person perishes from off this earth they should not have any sin that they held on to,for sin does affect our relationship with God,which God said whoever does not do righteousness is not of God.

 

[PeterJens]

They cannot abstain from sin does not make sense,for they are sinning on purpose,and not forced to sin,and if they hate sin,and do not want sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,and God said do not err for if you hold unto sin,and do not get rid of it,you are not saved,for the blood of Christ cannot wash it away,and it will be on their record.

This is why I ask, what sin are they talking about that is so endemic?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can not claim victory in Christ, yet teach that a person has to earn salvation by works,

if you teach victory in Christ, you have true faith God will save you completely and chage you from the inside out and make you a holy person who is sanctified in him

which means you are saved forever. Because God will change you

to say anything else is to profess faith in self, and you ability to become holy, and not in God to make you holy

its amazing how many people proclaim faith in Christ, that in really only have faith in self

 

[Meggido]

I often hear Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites and other works salvationists quote these passages of scripture in their efforts to try and prove that salvation is by works.

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the condition or means of receiving eternal life. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose the condition of our heart.

Folks,
Romans 1 is speaking of the sinful condition of the gentiles, Romans 2 is speaking to the Jews, who thought they were above the condition of the gentiles discussed in Romans 1, because they were God "chosen" people. Yet Paul says they also fall short and that there is no impartiality with God concerning Jew or Gentile and the the Jews cannot condemn the gentiles just because they have the law.

Romans 3 shows how ALL men talked about in 1 and 2 fall short of the Glory under the new Covenant.

Romans 4 shows us that righteousness and the free gift comes through faith alone, Romans 5 shows why God did it, because he loved us. Romans 6 shows us that we are a new man, Romans 7 shows us that a war of 2 natures can take place, but then Romans 8 shows us no such war should take place if we are Spirit led.

Lets not get confused about context while we support our pet doctrines, please

 

[dcontroversal]

/side note:

Jude has a little to say about going the way of Cain.

i can't believe this discussion is still happening.

Exactly why I referenced Cain...one of three false teachers that false teachers are compared to....He pushed his works.......and is 1st on the list!

 

[FranC]

You can not claim victory in Christ, yet teach that a person has to earn salvation by works,

if you teach victory in Christ, you have true faith God will save you completely and chage you from the inside out and make you a holy person who is sanctified in him

which means you are saved forever. Because God will change you

to say anything else is to profess faith in self, and you ability to become holy, and not in God to make you holy

its amazing how many people proclaim faith in Christ, that in really only have faith in self

What is true faith in God but following His commandments?

What you call FAITH IN SELF, is YOUR fear of WORKING.
As if there was something AGAINST GOD in working for HIM.

This has to be one of the most convoluted ideas in Christianity today.

JESUS SAID:

John 17:3
"And THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE, that they may KNOW THEE, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."
NASB

If we want eternal life, we are to know the one true God, and Jesus Christ.

What does "to know" mean? I hear from some who post here that KNOW in the Greek means to "know intimately", not just with the mind, but with the heart.

JESUS SAID

John 17:16
"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."
NASB


If we, believers to whom Jesus was speaking of, are not of this world, it means that we should be different and that this difference should be noticed by all.

So the argument that our "works" are a superficial and exterior means for "men to see" and NOT GOD, is a farce and as false a statement as could be made.

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFERENT. THE DIFFERENCE IS SUPPOSED TO BE SEEN BY ALL.

When persons call their Brother Christians unsaved, judge their very soul, and their motives for speaking the TRUTH, they certainly are NOT behaving in a manner worthy to be called Christianly.


JESUS SAID

John 14:15
"IF you LOVE ME, you will KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".
NASB

And yet I hear some on this thread say that it is not NECESSARY to keep God's commandments, we only keep them BECAUSE we're saved. That's not what Jesus said. He said IF WE LOVE HIM, WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

This does not denote a CHOICE. He said we ARE TO KEEP THEM.

So... Why the hesitancy to state this plainly???

Salvation is a free gift.
KEEPING SALAVATION IS A WORK.

You're either IN THE KINGDOM
or you're OUT OF THE KINGDOM.

If you're in the Kingdom, you follow the rules to remain there.

If you want to live in the U.S.A., you must follow the RULES and REGULATIONS and LAWS of that country, or you'll be put in prison or kicked out altogether.

If you want to be a part of God's Kingdom, you must follow the rules and regulations and Laws of that Kingdom, or you are NOT a part of it.

1 John 2:1-14

 

[Meggido]

Because as Katy correctly pointed out to Chris, "He who practices righteousness IS (already) righteous. This is confirmation, not a condition. Those who are born of God (saved) WILL practice righteousness (this is the evidence), not that one practices righteousness in order to be saved."

Those who are born of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous. Certain people get this backwards and confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Practicing righteousness is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

Positional righteousness is gained at conversion, practical righteousness is the gateway to abiding in him and having intimate relationship with him and it is done out of love for what he did for us.

 

[Meggido]

Hi Meggido,

I'm sorry I'm too busy right now to spend time on this thread.
It's a thread where those reading along can learn much.

The above is very good. I especially like that you posted Romans 8:2.
Romans 8:2 New International Version (NIV)

2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.
(the Law is still present, the method by which it is kept has been changed)

I'd just like to make sure that those who may not be familiar with the New Covenant understand that every O.T. covenant was made between God and Israel. Most were non-conditional, only two were conditional: The Edenic and the Mosaic Covenants.

The New Covenant is not conditional, however, one MUST BE IN IT to be a part of it.
It will be for ALL nations, but it was made between God and Israel, as you stated.

The big diffrence between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New:

1. An internal spiritual transformation with the new possibility of obedience. OBEDIENCE. Exactly what Jesus preached.
John 14:15 (and many more) Jesus DID NOT preach that ONLY belief in Him was necessary for salvation.

2. Sins will be forgiven and forgotten FOR THOSE IN COVENANT.
Hebrews 10:16-17

God does not say that the Laws are done way with. He says instead:

this is the covenant I willl make...
i will put my laws upon their heart...
and upon their mind I will write them...


It is USELESS to keep repeating that we are not continued to be saved by works.

Hebrews 9:14 tells us that Christ will cleanse our conscience from DEAD WORKS to serve the living God.
This goes to Romans 12:1 we are to offer ourselves A LIVING SACRIFICE.
and James 2:17,20

Fran,
We do not keep the Law of Christ, which is love God, love others and love yourself out of fear of losing something, that becomes self-righteous effort. We keep covenant relationship because we love him for what he did for us and what he continues to do in us and through us...

 

[FranC]

Exactly why I referenced Cain...one of three false teachers that false teachers are compared to....He pushed his works.......and is 1st on the list!

Did Abel not push his works?
Why not?
Explain please.

Did he not have to shepherd and raise those sheep?
Is it not difficult work?
I'd say it is more difficult to raise a lamb than to raise a vegetable.

You keep saying that Caine offered his labor.
Explain the difference between Abel's sacrifice and Caine's sacrifice.

Thanks.

 

[FranC]

Fran,
We do not keep the Law of Christ, which is love God, love others and love yourself out of fear of losing something, that becomes self-righteous effort. We keep covenant relationship because we love him for what he did for us and what he continues to do in us and through us...

Could we stop all the talking.

IS IT NECESSARY TO KEEP THE LAW OR NOT.

that's a yes or no answer.
Thanks.

 

[stonesoffire]

and proud of it

As you should. My Ancestors are from England, Scotland, Wales.

 

[Meggido]

Could we stop all the talking.

IS IT NECESSARY TO KEEP THE LAW OR NOT.

that's a yes or no answer.
Thanks.

which law Fran?, the law of Christ, yes we keep it<<<<<<<<<<<<<<now define that for me

The Law of Moses, no we don't

 

[FranC]

This is why I don't like labels. If Calvin believed the sky is red then would I be accused of also believing this? Would I be associated with everything he believes, by wrongful assumption? In the same way, if I agree with what Dcon says on something, would that then make me a Dcon-ist?

Honestly did not know anything about Calvin until a thread I read on here. I don't follow men and their views. But if I believe there will be a rapture does that make me a follower of Darby, just because he believed the same thing? I've been called a follower of him before, but I still don't know what he actually believes. I don't research these men and their beliefs, because I'm a follower of Jesus. These men were not crucified for me. As the scriptures say... 1 Cor 1:10-17.

I just read the scriptures, I don't just copy and paste what these men believe.

You make assumptions about what I believe. When did I ever say that God plays people like chess pieces and selects those He wants to throw into hell? As the scriptures say "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16) and that "the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

The problem arises when one doesn't acknowledge that those who have been born of the Spirit are changed and don't then become atheists that reject God. Scripture makes clear that "many will come out from among us and they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us" (1 John 2). Only those who have had that inner change will endure. Sure, some believers might drift into the world/backslide, but God calls them back. I'm actually a prodigal (daughter), and He brought me back in a dramatic way. Wasn't pleasant either. I plan on sharing it in a blog post soon ... but I can tell you that even during my backsliding I never stopped believing. I often had people approach me asking me if I were a christian. A colleague even back then could see by my nature that I was a believer and he just knew I was his spiritual sister.

How can you say that eternal security is demonic? You call a promise of God demonic? That's really worrying that you believe this. When I was saved at 11 years old I instantly had that assurance, I just knew I had eternal life. Didn't read views of men back then.

I can tell you're very passionate about scripture and what you believe. Also that you're in beautiful Italy and choosing to share on the forums here rather than be on the beach too. I have great memories from Firenze and remember staying at the hotel "Sant' Anna in Camprena" which used to be a monastery. It's near Pienza, in the province of Siena. A beautiful part of Italy and hope to get back there someday. I have so many memories there .... and I love Italian wine, particularly Valpolicella wine, which comes from the Veneto area.

It's a shame there is division on so many things, particularly God's promises. That scripture I shared was God's word, not mine, I just highlighted words He used, to make the message clear.

I wonder if you're catholic because you asked a question MANY pages back (lol ) which is a very common question I've only ever heard asked by two particular groups of people..... universalists and catholics. And clearly you're not universalist from what I've read in your posts. Or maybe you used to be Catholic and now are part of a church that has embraced catholic teachings, so you're not completely rid of all of their teachings.

Can you share your born again experience?... how you believe a person is born again.

Thanks Fran

Katy,

What's wrong wih labels? We're labeled every day.
Are you a woman? That's a label.
Are you a Christian? That's a label.

If you believe you cannot lose salvation, you're a Calvinist. Whether or not you believe everything he said.
I believe one can lose salvation so I'm an Arminian, whether or not I believe everything Arminius said.
Maybe you should find out the difference? Not that I think it's important, but if you're going to post it might be a good idea.

If you believe a person cannot lose salvation, it means that you believe that after salvation God takes away your free will to ever leave Him again. If you have no free will, then God is playing you like a chess piece. Read up on Calvin. It's really interesting. You tend to agree with him.

I someone falls away and then comes back, this is wonderful. Not all do. They fall away and stay away. The parable of the sower will teach this. Some hear the gospel, believe for a while, but it is temporary and then they fall away. Jesus said this, not me.

If you were backsliding, but still believing, you never lost your salvation. Do you think salvation i like a yo-yo? One day you have it, one day you don't, the next day you have it back. God is able to keep you safe.

Eternal salvation is a demonic doctrine because not only is it not what God has taught us in the N.T. but it is HERETICAL.

It didn't exist until 1,500 years after Jesus' resurrection. Do you think that no one had thought of this? They were so dumb, it took Calvin to invent this and all the early theologians, who were closest to Jesus, were just idiots? Have you ever read their writing? I've posted them many times, even just recently.

Jesus NEVER SAID that we are only to believe in Him and we would never lose salvation.
He preached on the Kingdom and how to be a part of it. Look up all the verses on the Kingdom. Look up what we have to do to be a part of it. Jesus told many parables on the Kingdom.

He came here to show us how to make a CHURCH, a Body of Christ. It seems the modern idea of salvation is getting very out of hand.

Word of Faith. If you don't get what you want, it's because you don't have enough faith.
HyperGrace. You have to do NOTHING. JUST BELIEVE. If we don't DO anything, how are we different from anyone else?
There are atheists that do more than some Christians do. Then I get the rediculous question of HOW MUCH do
we have to do to remain saved. This shows no understanding at all of salvation.

So when you come back to Italy, let me know. I live about 45 minutes from Florence.
And the beach? 20 minutes. But I live here, I'm not on vacation as many of my NY friends think!

Next time you go through the N.T., keep the Kingdom in mind and you'll understand everything differently.

 

[Ariel82]

you're affirming what i wrote - don't you even know it?

that isn't an "either/or" question you are asking. answer my question in your heart, which is yes or no: does God redeem?

Yeah...kind of an AND statement...,Everyone gets a new heart and has God's laws written on it.

 

[FranC]

which law Fran?, the law of Christ, yes we keep it<<<<<<<<<<<<<<now define that for me

The Law of Moses, no we don't

The Law of Moses
and the Law of Christ is the same.
Jesus did not come to abolish the Law. Not one ioda of it.

You're confusing
OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH


You should know the difference.

 

[FranC]

Yeah...kind of an AND statement...,Everyone gets a new heart and has God's laws written on it.

Laws that MUST BE KEPT.
Why is it so difficult to admit this??????

 

[Meggido]

The Law of Moses
and the Law of Christ is the same.
Jesus did not come to abolish the Law. Not one ioda of it.

You're confusing
OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW
OBEDIENCE OF FAITH


You should know the difference.

Fran, it is very evident you don't....know the only law we are held to, which is Love God, Love people, Love yourself, if you do this, you fulfill the law.

 

[FranC]

Fran,
We do not keep the Law of Christ, which is love God, love others and love yourself out of fear of losing something, that becomes self-righteous effort. We keep covenant relationship because we love him for what he did for us and what he continues to do in us and through us...

Let me ask you this. Something I usually do not do, but just for discussion's sake...


Man no. 1 follows the commandments because he loves God.

Man no. 2 follows the commandments because he fears God.



They both know God.
They both know Jesus.
They both do their best.

WHO IS SAVED?

 

[FranC]

Fran, it is very evident you don't....know the only law we are held to, which is Love God, Love people, Love yourself, if you do this, you fulfill the law.

Excuse me Meggido.

If you follow the two Great Commandments.

Are you not following ALL of the 10 commandments AND MORE?

YOU know what I know and what I don't know?
When did you give me the test?

The way you asked about Jesus' Law shows me that YOU don't understand very well what you are being obedient to and what the difference is between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant.

I'm not here to teach anyone anything.
This could be looked up. Professor Google knows everything.