Don't blame the law its you.
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Lol. This made me think of a bunch of children sitting around the feet of a teacher who is standing over them with a piece of paper, pointing at each thing and saying it out loud to them. 
Exodus 31:18
And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Exodus 31:18
And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Hi All,
Nice post Gotime.
I have been away for a while busy with work and family so just popping in for a bit.
I just want to say I think it is AMAZING how every time Bible verses about Faith and Works are brought up the conversation always goes in either two opposite directions.
In one direction, as soon as anyone brings up scriptures about God's Law, the consequences of sin, following Jesus by obedience and the accountability of sin, these people instantly get labelled as legalistic, Pharisees, under the works of the Law, deceivers, Judaizers etc etc.
In the other direction you have another group of people that proclaim faith faith faith.. all you have to do is believe we are not under the works of the Law and they provide a different set of scripture from God's Word
Now both groups of people are adamant that the other side is off track and not following the bible and I don't know how many people read their bibles here and only God knows someones heart and if that person is following Him or not so who are we to judge anyone here, but Jesus clearly says "You shall know them (followers and those not following) by their fruits" (Matt 7:20).
What is amazing to me is that many people do not know that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Tim 3:16)
As Christians we need to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." (Matt 4:4)
Now I would like to suggest that if we are only following some of God's Word and ignoring or keeping our eyes closed to other important parts of God's Word then we are not following every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. If this is the case then we are not really believing God's Word either. Jesus says.....
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (v 34 from sin)" (John 8:31-32,34)
If your on either side of the groups described above then you need to seriously ask yourself (as I do as well) do I believe every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God? It is only those that through Faith alone and have complete dependence on ALL the Words of God that follow Jesus and have the Faith of Jesus.
God's Word is very clear about the new covenant experience and being Born again. It is a gift of God to the sinner (us) and we can only receive this gift as we come to Jesus (the Law of God brings us to Him). It is only as we have complete faith and dependence on Gods Word to do what if says it will do that God can change us into His image and write His laws in our heart. (Heb 8:10-12)
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1John 3:9)
1John 3, 3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3, 4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1John 3, 5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1John 3, 6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sin hath not seen him, neither known him.
1John 3, 7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1John 3, 8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God
Joh 14, 15, If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15, 10, If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 2, 3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2, 4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Jam 2, 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2, 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2, 19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2, 20, But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Act 17, 30 In times of this ignorance God winks at; but now commands all men every where to repent:
"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:26-27)
My dear friends they only question we need to ask ourselves is... Do we believe (ALL) of God's Words?
Its not about Law and Faith its about both and believing ALL of God's Words and having Faith in God's Word to allow him to work in you, to will and to do of His own good pleasure (Phil 2:13; Heb 13:21)
God bless you all
Nice post Gotime.
I have been away for a while busy with work and family so just popping in for a bit.
I just want to say I think it is AMAZING how every time Bible verses about Faith and Works are brought up the conversation always goes in either two opposite directions.
In one direction, as soon as anyone brings up scriptures about God's Law, the consequences of sin, following Jesus by obedience and the accountability of sin, these people instantly get labelled as legalistic, Pharisees, under the works of the Law, deceivers, Judaizers etc etc.
In the other direction you have another group of people that proclaim faith faith faith.. all you have to do is believe we are not under the works of the Law and they provide a different set of scripture from God's Word
Now both groups of people are adamant that the other side is off track and not following the bible and I don't know how many people read their bibles here and only God knows someones heart and if that person is following Him or not so who are we to judge anyone here, but Jesus clearly says "You shall know them (followers and those not following) by their fruits" (Matt 7:20).
What is amazing to me is that many people do not know that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2Tim 3:16)
As Christians we need to live by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." (Matt 4:4)
Now I would like to suggest that if we are only following some of God's Word and ignoring or keeping our eyes closed to other important parts of God's Word then we are not following every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. If this is the case then we are not really believing God's Word either. Jesus says.....
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (v 34 from sin)" (John 8:31-32,34)
If your on either side of the groups described above then you need to seriously ask yourself (as I do as well) do I believe every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God? It is only those that through Faith alone and have complete dependence on ALL the Words of God that follow Jesus and have the Faith of Jesus.
God's Word is very clear about the new covenant experience and being Born again. It is a gift of God to the sinner (us) and we can only receive this gift as we come to Jesus (the Law of God brings us to Him). It is only as we have complete faith and dependence on Gods Word to do what if says it will do that God can change us into His image and write His laws in our heart. (Heb 8:10-12)
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1John 3:9)
1John 3, 3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3, 4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1John 3, 5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1John 3, 6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sin hath not seen him, neither known him.
1John 3, 7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1John 3, 8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God
Joh 14, 15, If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15, 10, If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 2, 3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2, 4, He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Jam 2, 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2, 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2, 19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2, 20, But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Act 17, 30 In times of this ignorance God winks at; but now commands all men every where to repent:
"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:26-27)
My dear friends they only question we need to ask ourselves is... Do we believe (ALL) of God's Words?
Its not about Law and Faith its about both and believing ALL of God's Words and having Faith in God's Word to allow him to work in you, to will and to do of His own good pleasure (Phil 2:13; Heb 13:21)
God bless you all
Romans 14.5-9
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; [SUP]8 [/SUP]for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; [SUP]8 [/SUP]for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Well , here is where we differ..WHERE does GOD say 'go ahead and choose your own day...never mind what I want ?
AS soldiers of God we are supposed to obey/follow command...not answer back and decide for ourselves.
People lack disciplene/obedience, a wild bunch refusing correction and training.....I won't go on...sure you get the picture.
AS soldiers of God we are supposed to obey/follow command...not answer back and decide for ourselves.
People lack disciplene/obedience, a wild bunch refusing correction and training.....I won't go on...sure you get the picture.
E
As for the words written in stone
[h=1]2 Corinthians 3New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Christ’s Epistle[/h]3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
[h=3]The Spirit, Not the Letter[/h]4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
[h=3]Glory of the New Covenant[/h]7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
[h=4][/h]
[h=1]2 Corinthians 3New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Christ’s Epistle[/h]3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
[h=3]The Spirit, Not the Letter[/h]4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
[h=3]Glory of the New Covenant[/h]7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
[h=4][/h]
I just showed you were God said the day does not matter...are you lawyers always this obtuse or doe sit just come with being a lawyer?
The day does not matter, for worshiping in spirit and truth is a heart condition...
Romans 13.8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
The day does not matter, for worshiping in spirit and truth is a heart condition...
Romans 13.8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Now I find this interesting that you say this:
"I will continue to post what Paul says about the law and the New Covenant every time people try to bring Christians under the bondage of the law again."
Which means you think that is what this post was about. Interesting response that I am trying to get my head around.
Now I am not sure if you are responding to me or someone else.
All my post does is follow what Paul says, The issue is not the law its sin. Jesus came to save us from sin.
To blame the law is like Adam blaming Eve for his sin as if it was his fault for his choice. I am not sure this is what your doing so could you please clarify for my dull brain lol.
I may have totaly missed the boat on this one.
So We know the bible says the law is good.
We know our problem is sin not the law.
We know the law was ordained for life says Paul.
For me it is straight logic.
If the law simply reveals the problem.
But the problem is not the law but us.
Then the solution has to be something concerning us.
Anything done to the law misses the problem and can not save.
"I will continue to post what Paul says about the law and the New Covenant every time people try to bring Christians under the bondage of the law again."
Which means you think that is what this post was about. Interesting response that I am trying to get my head around.
Now I am not sure if you are responding to me or someone else.
All my post does is follow what Paul says, The issue is not the law its sin. Jesus came to save us from sin.
To blame the law is like Adam blaming Eve for his sin as if it was his fault for his choice. I am not sure this is what your doing so could you please clarify for my dull brain lol.
I may have totaly missed the boat on this one.
So We know the bible says the law is good.
We know our problem is sin not the law.
We know the law was ordained for life says Paul.
For me it is straight logic.
If the law simply reveals the problem.
But the problem is not the law but us.
Then the solution has to be something concerning us.
Anything done to the law misses the problem and can not save.
I cannot find "He who does not observe the day" in here.
God created a 7 day week, and made the last day of the week holy. This was not undone.
If you want to rest on Tuesday, then do it. But don't pretend that it was God's intention, or that it is holy.
Revisionism is silly, trying to make excuses to not keep the sabbath by saying that every day is holy. God created Tuesday, but did He make it holy and set it apart? That's not what happened.
The feasts are shadows, part of the Levitical priesthood. They are a different thing than an actual 1/7 part of the week being set apart for man.
God created a 7 day week, and made the last day of the week holy. This was not undone.
If you want to rest on Tuesday, then do it. But don't pretend that it was God's intention, or that it is holy.
Revisionism is silly, trying to make excuses to not keep the sabbath by saying that every day is holy. God created Tuesday, but did He make it holy and set it apart? That's not what happened.
The feasts are shadows, part of the Levitical priesthood. They are a different thing than an actual 1/7 part of the week being set apart for man.
Yes, you have missed the point!
The righteous demands of the law are completely unattainable!
All the law can do is make sin sinful and condemn us.
Paul stresses that the law is righteous or holy yet all it can do is condemn us because we cannot measure up to its righteousness.
That is why we need a saviour!
And we have a saviour in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.
The work that Jesus Christ did by shedding His blood and dying on the cross fulfilled the righteous demands of the law ON OUR BEHALF.
We do not need to "do" anything to the law.
What we do need to do is trust that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the righteous demands of the law and NOT look to the law for our righteousness.
The righteous demands of the law are completely unattainable!
All the law can do is make sin sinful and condemn us.
Paul stresses that the law is righteous or holy yet all it can do is condemn us because we cannot measure up to its righteousness.
That is why we need a saviour!
And we have a saviour in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.
The work that Jesus Christ did by shedding His blood and dying on the cross fulfilled the righteous demands of the law ON OUR BEHALF.
We do not need to "do" anything to the law.
What we do need to do is trust that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the righteous demands of the law and NOT look to the law for our righteousness.
Thanx for the reply some good points in there find my comments if interested in red. Blessings.
Continuing on the last thought in Red. Paul said this of the law:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Notice that the same law that made the world guilty because all have sinned also acts as a witness to the righteousness of God. This is the righteousness of Christ which we receive by faith. It is not talking about Jesus himself in the sense of Just Him it is in regards to Us having the righteousness of God by faith is it is written:
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
So it is that by faith we are transformed from sinners to the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
Now the law still says the same thing. For example
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
now we know its deeper than simply physically killing, even the OT teaches that. But for the sake of illustration lets keep it simple.
thou shalt not kill, condemns anyone that kills because killing is sin.
But thou shalt not kill when seen next to person who does not kill is now a witness to the righteousness of God in the person. A witness to the saving of God from sin.
the one who killed now no longer kills thus they must have the righteousness of God. One need only apply the same to every commandment.
Its Jesus that saves not the law. The law stays the same its just writing on stone. It either condemns as a sinner or witnesses to the conversion by faith in Christ.
Either the heart is carnal and the law condemns
Or the heart now has the law written on it and the law bears witness to the work of God in the one who has faith.
As it is written:
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
and again:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The law is established by the work of God through faith in converting the sinner. The law bears witness that the person is changed by grace as it is written:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
The new creature that God haw written his law on will now do the things contained in the law thus the law bears witness.
Sin is over come as it is written:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Sin has lost its power when we put our faith in Jesus. We no longer walk in sin. The law is then fulfilled in us as it is written:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This is conversion. This is salvation.
It stands to reason that if the problem is not the law but sin in us. Then the solution is not to edit or get rid of the law but rather to get rid of sin in us. Anything short of that is no salvation at all. Hence it is written:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Note not the law but sin.
and here:
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
this is salvation and the law which condemned the one who does sin acts as a witness of the work of God in the one who does righteousness and no sin.
blessings.
Continuing on the last thought in Red. Paul said this of the law:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Notice that the same law that made the world guilty because all have sinned also acts as a witness to the righteousness of God. This is the righteousness of Christ which we receive by faith. It is not talking about Jesus himself in the sense of Just Him it is in regards to Us having the righteousness of God by faith is it is written:
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
So it is that by faith we are transformed from sinners to the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
Now the law still says the same thing. For example
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
now we know its deeper than simply physically killing, even the OT teaches that. But for the sake of illustration lets keep it simple.
thou shalt not kill, condemns anyone that kills because killing is sin.
But thou shalt not kill when seen next to person who does not kill is now a witness to the righteousness of God in the person. A witness to the saving of God from sin.
the one who killed now no longer kills thus they must have the righteousness of God. One need only apply the same to every commandment.
Its Jesus that saves not the law. The law stays the same its just writing on stone. It either condemns as a sinner or witnesses to the conversion by faith in Christ.
Either the heart is carnal and the law condemns
Or the heart now has the law written on it and the law bears witness to the work of God in the one who has faith.
As it is written:
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
and again:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
The law is established by the work of God through faith in converting the sinner. The law bears witness that the person is changed by grace as it is written:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
The new creature that God haw written his law on will now do the things contained in the law thus the law bears witness.
Sin is over come as it is written:
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Sin has lost its power when we put our faith in Jesus. We no longer walk in sin. The law is then fulfilled in us as it is written:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This is conversion. This is salvation.
It stands to reason that if the problem is not the law but sin in us. Then the solution is not to edit or get rid of the law but rather to get rid of sin in us. Anything short of that is no salvation at all. Hence it is written:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Note not the law but sin.
and here:
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
this is salvation and the law which condemned the one who does sin acts as a witness of the work of God in the one who does righteousness and no sin.
blessings.
Thankyou for your reply but may I suggest humbly that you have missed my point.
I don't have any problem with what you wrote above because at leas as I read it, its true. My post is not about being saved by the law. This would seem to be an assumption on your part. Maybe I worded things in a way that looked that way. If I did sorry. But now it is cleared up hopefully.
The post is looking at how the law functions not about how we are saved.
I don't have any problem with what you wrote above because at leas as I read it, its true. My post is not about being saved by the law. This would seem to be an assumption on your part. Maybe I worded things in a way that looked that way. If I did sorry. But now it is cleared up hopefully.
The post is looking at how the law functions not about how we are saved.
How do you read that? I am curious because I find it interesting that people actually think that the law makes them sin.
In my estimation the law can't make me do anything. Its just writing. How I respond to it is a revelation about me not the law. To blame the law is akin to blaming God as if he some how tempted us by the law. But it is written:
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Temptation comes from within not without.
So Paul clearly does not mean to cast blame on the law for sin when he says these things. As he stated else where:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
and again:
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
So we see the issue is not the law, the law is spiritual the problem is we are carnal in nature. not after conversion but that is another story. The problem is sin in us.
So what does Paul mean then when he says:
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
Is he blaming the law here? well not according to what he says in Romans 7. But Paul has something to say about the law and sin lets look.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Here we see a similar instance, Is Paul here saying that the law made the motions of sin? He tells us what he means by this so lets see:
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So the law is not sin but rather makes sin known.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Notice it is sin that uses the commandment, It is sin that wrought all manner of concupiscence. The law because something sin used.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Is Paul saying that the commandment caused sin to revive, We know this is not the case as Paul in chapter 5 makes it clear that sin and death were before the law.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
how?
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
notice again it not the commandment but sin using the commandment and sin deceived and killed.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The law is good it is not the problem.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
And here it is plainly what Paul is saying, The commandment is not the issue but,"sin" the commandment brought death only by making sin appear sin that was already working death in us because the commandment made sin more sinful.
Paul demonstrates how in the verses to come, Though he wants to keep the law He can not and thus his sin becomes more sinful.
The issue is sin clearly, the law is just writing it does not change anything it rather revealed that sin is worse than we thought. that sin is rebellious in nature and the law only revealed its rebellious nature.
In my estimation the law can't make me do anything. Its just writing. How I respond to it is a revelation about me not the law. To blame the law is akin to blaming God as if he some how tempted us by the law. But it is written:
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Temptation comes from within not without.
So Paul clearly does not mean to cast blame on the law for sin when he says these things. As he stated else where:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
and again:
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
So we see the issue is not the law, the law is spiritual the problem is we are carnal in nature. not after conversion but that is another story. The problem is sin in us.
So what does Paul mean then when he says:
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
Is he blaming the law here? well not according to what he says in Romans 7. But Paul has something to say about the law and sin lets look.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Here we see a similar instance, Is Paul here saying that the law made the motions of sin? He tells us what he means by this so lets see:
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So the law is not sin but rather makes sin known.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Notice it is sin that uses the commandment, It is sin that wrought all manner of concupiscence. The law because something sin used.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Is Paul saying that the commandment caused sin to revive, We know this is not the case as Paul in chapter 5 makes it clear that sin and death were before the law.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
how?
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
notice again it not the commandment but sin using the commandment and sin deceived and killed.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The law is good it is not the problem.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
And here it is plainly what Paul is saying, The commandment is not the issue but,"sin" the commandment brought death only by making sin appear sin that was already working death in us because the commandment made sin more sinful.
Paul demonstrates how in the verses to come, Though he wants to keep the law He can not and thus his sin becomes more sinful.
The issue is sin clearly, the law is just writing it does not change anything it rather revealed that sin is worse than we thought. that sin is rebellious in nature and the law only revealed its rebellious nature.
Fair enough!
To unbelievers the law acts as a tutor to bring one to Christ.
Once one is saved the law no longer of any use.
We are called upon to follow a different kind of metric, Paul calls it the law of faith Rom 3:27.
Operating according the law of faith calls on us to do things that are beyond the law - the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22-23 encompasses and summarises those things that we are to do yet cannot be legislated!
I have only given the barebones here - there is a lot of amplification that can be done to develop this more fully!
To unbelievers the law acts as a tutor to bring one to Christ.
Once one is saved the law no longer of any use.
We are called upon to follow a different kind of metric, Paul calls it the law of faith Rom 3:27.
Operating according the law of faith calls on us to do things that are beyond the law - the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22-23 encompasses and summarises those things that we are to do yet cannot be legislated!
I have only given the barebones here - there is a lot of amplification that can be done to develop this more fully!
The 10 commandments were called the ministry of condemnation and of death by Paul. We can trust the life of Christ in us to live godly in this world.
The grace of God "teaches" now in the New Covenant how to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly, righteous and godly in this present age - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12
The 10 commandments are called the"letter that kills" and the"ministry of death" - The New Covenant is called the "ministry of the Spirit" that brings Life.
The 10 commandments were called "the ministry of condemnation" - the New Covenant is called "the ministry of righteousness." This is Christ's righteousness given to us that believe.
2 Corinthians 3:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
The law of Moses including the 10 commandments are like an x-ray machine - they show up things that are wrong but the x-ray machine has no power to "fix it".
It just reveals what is wrong. It's the same here for Christ Himself and His life in our new hearts is the only thing that can "fix us" with a transformed live.
The only way to be free from the law - is to die. Rom. 7:1-6
We in Christ have died with Jesus on the cross. In this dying - we have also died to the law "so that" we could be joined to Another. Rom. 7:4
Romans 7:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
So that we could bear fruit for God. We only bear true fruit for God through the Lord Jesus Christ and in order for that to happen - we have died to the law of Moses.
The Christian has no relation to the law of Moses in any capacity other than to see Jesus fulfilling the law and that the law leads us to Christ Himself. The law is NOT of faith.
The grace of God "teaches" now in the New Covenant how to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly, righteous and godly in this present age - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12
The 10 commandments are called the"letter that kills" and the"ministry of death" - The New Covenant is called the "ministry of the Spirit" that brings Life.
The 10 commandments were called "the ministry of condemnation" - the New Covenant is called "the ministry of righteousness." This is Christ's righteousness given to us that believe.
2 Corinthians 3:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
The law of Moses including the 10 commandments are like an x-ray machine - they show up things that are wrong but the x-ray machine has no power to "fix it".
It just reveals what is wrong. It's the same here for Christ Himself and His life in our new hearts is the only thing that can "fix us" with a transformed live.
The only way to be free from the law - is to die. Rom. 7:1-6
We in Christ have died with Jesus on the cross. In this dying - we have also died to the law "so that" we could be joined to Another. Rom. 7:4
Romans 7:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
So that we could bear fruit for God. We only bear true fruit for God through the Lord Jesus Christ and in order for that to happen - we have died to the law of Moses.
The Christian has no relation to the law of Moses in any capacity other than to see Jesus fulfilling the law and that the law leads us to Christ Himself. The law is NOT of faith.