Not By Works

[FranC]

Ok Fran,

I will ask forgiveness, and say it seems you misunderstood me, So although you did do what I said, it was out of ignorance, not out of anything else

I say this, because what you just described here is not even close to what I believe, or what I was even trying to say, It is the wrong context completely.

so here I will try to use an example, Remembering that faith means you have assurance that the one you are trusting can do what you are asking him or her to do.

Did you have faith in your father when you grew up? I did, I did for years, Then my father starting letting me down, I would trust him in an area and he would fail me, Eventually after so much of this, I lost faith in my father

My father did not take my faith away from me, He did not force me to keep having faith in him, he did not force me to lose faith in him, He just stopped being faithful.

That is the way we humans do things (maybe you do not? I do not know, you would be the first I ever met if you do not) We trust some one as long as they are trustworthy, As soon as they stop doing things which help us have faith in them, as soon as they stop being faithful to us, We lose faith in them, If they get to the the point they lose all trustworthiness, We lose all faith in them. (which in the case of salvation, I gather you and a few like you say this is how salvation can be lost)

Also.

Some people are trustworthy is some areas, yet are not very trustworthy in others. I may ask them to help in one area, because I know I can trust them, but other areas, I would not ask, because I do not trust them to get that job done.

Now. to God.

Is God trustworthy? Will he ever let us down? Is there any area he is not trustworthy in?

I can not think of any are where God can not do somethign that needs to be done, and he would do it right.

So why would I ever lose faith in God? Again, He is not human, he will not stop being a trustworthy God.

The only reason I can think of losing faith in God in this area, is if I become legalistic in my walk, And I look at myself, and I see I am not doing well. or I am in trouble, because I fail to live up. or I struggle with a certain sin and can not seem to break it, Or I have religious people attacking me, I have satan attacking me, so I may lose faith at this time and walk away, Not because I lost faith in God, but faith in myself.

Now. I first get saved, because I trust him to save me, from that point, I have to grow, while growing I have to learn to trust God in scary areas of my life, where I have yet to trust him in,, And when I do, Does he ever let me down? No.. SO I may never gain faith in a particular area of my life and continue to struggle in that area, but once i have it, What reason would I have to lose faith in that area?

Again, God does not let me down?

Again, Maybe you misunderstood me, I will give you that benefit. But God does not force people to stay in faith, He does not have to, He never gives anyone a reason to stop having faith in him

I hope you now understand where I was coming from.


God still promises to save me, It is not he that failed, it was me.

I can lose faith in God in some area and still be saved.

I Always said that one has to ABANDON God to lose salvation.

If God does not give me a healing. And I really needed it. Could I lose faith that He will EVER give me a healing?
YES.
This does not mean I'm not saved. I may come to think that God will never heal me. But if I still believe in God, keep Him close to me, continue in my relationship with Him, why would I lose my salvation?

God knows our limits. He remains faithful to Himself, as 2 Timothy 2:13 states. His promise to save me will be kept for as long as I WANT IT to keep me.

I feel that God can let me down in some area, I could "feel" that He let me down. Even though I know the answer could be:
YES, NO, NOT NOW, but in my heart I may feel let down. But I still could love Him and continue on.

God can do anything, but He has to want to.

"Jesus can You take the time
to throw a drowning man a line
Peace On Earth"...

We don't Always get that line. It doesn't mean God doesn't love us. It just wasn't meant to be.

I do want to say that some do lose their faith totally and ABANDON God. This is loss of salvation.

You and I disagree that salvation can be lost.
Otherwise I'd say we pretty much agree.
But this is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect of Christianity.

Hope I've understood you.

 

[dcontroversal]

It is their strawman,

A work is a work is a work, It is what I do to earn a wage, earn a salary, earn a living, Earn a reward.

They reject grace and mercy, because they THINK they have made it on their own merit.

AMEN to that.......oblivious to the fact that those who push and boast of works will be denied by JESUS on that fateful day....

Lord, Lord, did we not............

 

[Stephen63]

V1-2: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For (because/since) the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death"

That bit in red is a confirmation, not a condition.

Both "do not walk" & "walk according to the Spirit" are actions that prove we live by faith.

Faith without such works is dead.

 

[PeterJens]

God flooded the worl because men were sinners, how could men know what sin was, the law was not yet given..

Sin is sin is sin, it was sin, in fact it was so grave a sin the Middle East has suffered the result of that sin even till today,

customs of the day do not determine what is sin, God does, that's the problem with the world today custom says it is ok to live with your gf or bf, it is ok to covet, it is ok to lie cheat and steal.

That dies not make it right, let's call a sin a sin.

EG - You are not serious. Abram lived in a time when you showed you were married, you
slept with the woman given to you. They then became your wife.

There was not a register of marriages, or a defined formula of who was considered given
to you as a betrothed, often it was sorted out through circumstance.

Jacob.

Then Jacob said to Laban, “Give me my wife. My time is completed, and I want to make love to her.”22 So Laban brought together all the people of the place and gave a feast. 23 But when evening came, he took his daughter Leah and brought her to Jacob, and Jacob made love to her. 24 And Laban gave his servant Zilpah to his daughter as her attendant.
25 When morning came, there was Leah! So Jacob said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? I served you for Rachel, didn’t I? Why have you deceived me?”
Gen 29:21-25

Here marriage is deemed as sleeping with the daughter.
This demonstrates again the poverty some have in reading and understanding both
morality and scripture.

 

[dcontroversal]

The issue is not the amount of Scripture used - look at my posts where I go into detail, I want Scripture to do most of the talking!
The problem is that it is abused and its meaning distorted!
Perhaps you don't see that, but it was pretty obvious to me.

It was obvious to all who have eyes and are honest.....his embellishments found within the () is what corrupted the whole lot....

 

[FranC]

Both "do not walk" & "walk according to the Spirit" are actions that prove we live by faith.

Faith without such works is dead.

It seems so obvious...

 

[notuptome]

Both "do not walk" & "walk according to the Spirit" are actions that prove we live by faith.

Faith without such works is dead.

Yet there remains folks who are lost and dead to God who do more works than those who name the name of Christ.

Works prove nothing it is the witness of the Spirit of God that testifies of God.

Judge not for you will be judged by the same standard which you use to judge others.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I can lose faith in God in some area and still be saved.

I Always said that one has to ABANDON God to lose salvation.

If God does not give me a healing. And I really needed it. Could I lose faith that He will EVER give me a healing?
YES.
This does not mean I'm not saved. I may come to think that God will never heal me. But if I still believe in God, keep Him close to me, continue in my relationship with Him, why would I lose my salvation?

God knows our limits. He remains faithful to Himself, as 2 Timothy 2:13 states. His promise to save me will be kept for as long as I WANT IT to keep me.

I feel that God can let me down in some area, I could "feel" that He let me down. Even though I know the answer could be:
YES, NO, NOT NOW, but in my heart I may feel let down. But I still could love Him and continue on.

God can do anything, but He has to want to.

"Jesus can You take the time
to throw a drowning man a line
Peace On Earth"...

We don't Always get that line. It doesn't mean God doesn't love us. It just wasn't meant to be.

I do want to say that some do lose their faith totally and ABANDON God. This is loss of salvation.

You and I disagree that salvation can be lost.
Otherwise I'd say we pretty much agree.
But this is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect of Christianity.

Hope I've understood you.

Explain how you can abandon God? Can you abandon God if God does not abandon you?

Do you not know that you are not your own but you are bought with a price? The blood of Jesus is the price paid for you and you cannot repay that debt.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeterJens]

Oh my, look at the people excusing abrahams sin, and they want to judge us of sin

dude, clean your own life up first, and learn what sin Is before you try to clean others people's lives.

Here is a demonstration of a different moral framework at play. Rather than Gods blessing
and testimony about people lives being taken, a new exterior set of morality and rules is being
applied.

As we are talking being free from law or under the law ( law of Moses ) this is confusing as
neither being lawless or the law of Moses applies here. So what is being referred to?

It is like talking to someone in a vacuum and they refuse to declare what they mean.

As a side note, having more than one wife is not sin, it is not recommended as a good way
of living. Some are not aware that this is actual new testament teaching.

Over time it became apparent, one wife is the best social structure one can have.

 

[Stephen63]

Don;t worry Grace, He put me on ignore many moons ago, yet still responds to me,, He is not trustworthy in this area either

And if he did ignore you, Consider it a blessing.

Hi there EG.

The "ignore button" isn't a "trustworthiness" issue. It's a "do as I please" issue.

If I want to put the whole BDF on ignore, it's my right to do so. It's also yours.

This is just another example of you putting your deceptive spin on a post.

But it's ok you wrote this, 'cause it testifies to your personal malice & downgrading of God's people.

Please..... continue to testify from the abundance of your heart. It helps people to see who you truly are.

 

[Stephen63]

MMD

You give it your best shot.

But do you realize how you need SO MANY SENTENCES to describe something that Jesus said in 3 sentences? (in my NASB)

Why do you supppose this is? Because you refuse to take the bible in its literal sense. Jesus made it easy so even uneducated persons could understand it (and they do), but YOU want to make it difficult.

Descriptive Passages
Prescriptive Passages

MY oh my. I think I need a PhD to read the bible!

Jesus said:

THOSE WHO COMMITTED GOOD DEEDS, to a resurrection of LIFE
THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS, to a resurrection of condemnation.

See. Two sentences. And everybody reading along understands them.


Do you realize that Jesus didn't talk about salvation as we understand it today.
He talked about being memebers of the Kingdom, about being good-hearted, doing what He commanded, being born of the spirit so that our spirit controls us and not our sin nature.

We're going to have to do a thread on the Kingdom...
It's very misunderstood.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FranC again.

 

[Blain]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FranC again.

No worries my friend I got it for you

 

[FranC]

This is a pretty big tangled mess of doctrine here. It's going to take a lot of time to untangle it. But I know that's how it is in the church today. That's why I won't go into the ministry (one of the reasons, anyway).
I'm going to work now. I'll be back.
In the mean time, just think for a while what huge error of scripture you made in that post.

Does anyone else see the HUGE mistake of scripture eternally-gratefull made? (See my post #15692 for the quote)

Hi PHart,

I should say that I agree that Dude and Bud should not be used here on these threads. However innocently they may be used...

I did check out your post no. 15692 and wonder if this is the quote to which you refer:

If he didn't do it because he had to get back home to catch the game on TV, then 'yes', Abraham would be safe had he died before he had sacrificed Isaac. But if Abraham had not sacrificed Isaac BECAUSE HE NO LONGER BELIEVED THAT GOD WOULD RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD TO KEEP HIS PROMISE then, 'yes', Abraham would die separated from God in salvation.

I believe EG is wrong in saying that you think one must be PERFECT to have salvation. I don't know how anyone could possibly think this since only Jesus was perfect and everyone else falls short.

I do agree that one could lose faith in God in some area of life. This seems only human to me. I wrote about this to EG in my post above. This does not mean one loses salvation. It is a human condition and God happens to know that we're human. Not that God cannot do whatever it would be, but that He doesn't want to - for whatever reason. He is sovereign, after all.

James was writing to Jews who had become believers in Christ; thus, Christian Jews. IOW, he was writing to believers.

James 1:18 James wants these Christians to be the first-fruits in a line of many who will come to b e disciples.
James 1:21.... James is now telling the believers what is expected of them.

He says they/we must be doers. James 1:25

He continues and gives the same type of instruction as his Brother, Jesus, did. James 1:27

And he continues in this way, stating that faith without works is a dead faith, IOW, no faith.
James 2:17, 20.


So, I'd say you're correct. If Abraham did not obey God re Isaac because of some circumstantial reason, he would still be saved.

If he STOPPED BELIEVING IN THE RESURRECTION of life, then FOR THIS REASON,
if he did not obey God re Isaac, THEN Abraham would have become lost.

We don't listen to God many times, this does not cause the loss of our salvation.
It is disbelief in the life, Death and resurrection of Christ that can do this.
BELIEF IN GOD is crucial to salvation.

 

[Stephen63]

It doesn't take a PhD to figure out the truth here. Don't be so dramatic.

I about choked when I saw this, LOL!

You, telling somebody else they're being dramatic!

 

[Stephen63]

Doubt it will help....she thinks folks blame God for their sins...until she years down that strawman...it's doubtful she will hear anything spoken without making hay out of the statements.

I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can lose faith in God in some area and still be saved.

I Always said that one has to ABANDON God to lose salvation.

If God does not give me a healing. And I really needed it. Could I lose faith that He will EVER give me a healing?
YES.
This does not mean I'm not saved. I may come to think that God will never heal me. But if I still believe in God, keep Him close to me, continue in my relationship with Him, why would I lose my salvation?

God knows our limits. He remains faithful to Himself, as 2 Timothy 2:13 states. His promise to save me will be kept for as long as I WANT IT to keep me.

I feel that God can let me down in some area, I could "feel" that He let me down. Even though I know the answer could be:
YES, NO, NOT NOW, but in my heart I may feel let down. But I still could love Him and continue on.

God can do anything, but He has to want to.

"Jesus can You take the time
to throw a drowning man a line
Peace On Earth"...

We don't Always get that line. It doesn't mean God doesn't love us. It just wasn't meant to be.

I am glad you agree, of one does not need faith in all areas to be saved, Lack of faith in a few areas does not disqualify us from being Gods people.

I am not sure if I understood you right on this last part, , So will not assume, Just tell you what I think.

I think via the cross. God through the line, We are all or at least we were) drowning in our sin and debt, And God sent us a life preserver,

But he will not force people to take it, Those who have faith will. Those who do not will not.

The world is throwing you a line to, Its leader is satan Some grab that line, because they want it more than Gods line, and they have more faith in that line.

Sadly, most of the worlds religions, including many sects of Christianity, Have grabbed on this line thinking it is Gods line, and will get a surprise one day when they realize they grabbed the wrong line.

I do want to say that some do lose their faith totally and ABANDON God. This is loss of salvation.

This is where we separate. I do not think God gives people a reason to lose faith, or to lose hope. Only the world can offer you a hope that is not hope that is weak and unable to give you what it promises,, These people keep looking for hope they can not find.. Some find it in religion. Some think they have found it in some form of Christianity, But they never trusted it, These people will not last, they will walk away, Not because they lost hope. but because they never took hold and grabbed hold of the hope God offers.

then I think their are some who want to hold on to the worlds rope and Gods,, They will drown in there sin because they did not take proper Hold of Gods rope. and they slipped and fell and perished.

You and I disagree that salvation can be lost.
Otherwise I'd say we pretty much agree.
But this is a VERY IMPORTANT aspect of Christianity.

Hope I've understood you.

To me it is the most important, Getting this part wrong has eternal consequences.

I think you have, I hope you see now why I believe the way I do concerning faith and Hope.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems so obvious...

How much faith is enough faith?

Again, We will only walk in areas we have faith in, But are not those works proof we had faith to begin with? If so.. Faith apart from works no longer apply to us.

 

[PeterJens]

they want to judge us of sin

It is God who judges people of sin. All we can do is take the law and show when
people have gone over its bounds and confront them.

My observation of the intent is to take the focus of God and His morality and law,
and put it onto man, and then claim it is only man who is judging.

This demonstrates no fear of God or sinning against Him, and no respect for other
believers who follow Christ and His word.

This approach to sin, is not as Paul describes

continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Phil 2:12

 

[FranC]

Explain how you can abandon God? Can you abandon God if God does not abandon you?

Do you not know that you are not your own but you are bought with a price? The blood of Jesus is the price paid for you and you cannot repay that debt.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I've been bought with a price.

I have a down payment.
I'll get my house when i die.
If I have faith.

 

[FranC]

How much faith is enough faith?

Again, We will only walk in areas we have faith in, But are not those works proof we had faith to begin with? If so.. Faith apart from works no longer apply to us.

What???????????

Faith without works is DEAD.

How come there's so much misundersanding here?