Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

Sacred cow?

LOL..

a "sacred cow" is a term used to describe a church teaching that has been handed down as a tradition and thus most would view it as being true. But there is no scripture for these beliefs to back it up.

For example:

There were no wise men from the East present at Jesus' birth.

The bible does not say there were 3 wise men.

There is no scripture that states the "believer" that is in Christ needs to confess sins "in order" to be forgiven in the New Covenant.

There is also no scripture that states the Holy Spirit "convicts" believers in Christ of sins - in fact scripture says the complete opposite. ( This doesn't mean we go on sinning as much as we can nor that our own conscience knows the difference between right and wrong doing )

The way the modern evangelical world has used this term in relation to believers is contrary to what scriptures actually are saying about this subject.

All of the above are what are termed as "sacred cows".

Jesus said that our man-made traditions invalidate the word of God. Mark 7:13

Mark 7:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

 

[PeterJens]

if we think about it, it is a reversal, as a child of the world, Satan does not want us to think we are sinners, it is agod who exposes our sin,

as as a child of God, it is Satan who wants to expose our in, and show us how worthless we are. It is agod who wants to expose his love, even when chastening us.

As a church, we can not help a brother/sister in a sin issue by throwing law at them trying to expose their sin, they already know it is sin, doing his will never cause a person to stop sin, yet that is what the traditional church wants to do, then wonder why I fails, (people rather walk away, hide their sin, then crash and burn, or replace one habit with another habit they will not be so harshly judged with. what the church needs to do is come along side, try to expose the heart issue, and get the person to stop being self focused, and making them others focused, all the whil fighting satans lie that god will not love them because they are doing that sin.

Taking this premise. As believers we are slaves to sin, but saved, so it is Christ God sees
and not the evil we do everyday. As the devilish satan, how dare he, is pointing out the
sin we do, for which judgement came, and we are now innocent of, because we bought the
ticket of faith, so we need to believe we are righteous, holy and redeemed even though we
are not.

This is just unbiblical junk, worthy of being burnt in the lake of fire.

To a believer like this there is no redemption or victory, it is just a hypocritical walk of a
farce, saying you are something by faith, while living as the world.

You need to get down and dirty with evil and sinful behaviour. It is not acceptable, which
means, identify, isolate, repent and walk away from. If you cannot do this, then start
sharing with others and working it through with Christ, because He can bring the victory.

And you are not dealing with sin because the prudish and self righteous are nice, and we all
have to be nice, sin and evil leads to death, destruction, the taking of that which is good
and rubbishing it, even ourselves. To talk compromise with sin is talking as an unbeliever.

And when people talk about failure, it is their failure not others. No one can talk about anothers
failure, because who are we to judge.

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:6

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
rom 6:12

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
rom 6:14

We people testify that sin still has dominion over them, they are still under law
and not grace.

What is staggering is month after month we testify to the power of the cross,
of repentance, of victory over failure, and still the same people preach failure
and sin that cannot be resolved.

 

[Ariel82]

We confess our sins to Christ IN ORDER for HIM to heal our cuts and bruises and show us how to fix our brokenness. We go to Him because we know He loves us and has forgiven us worst sins in the past, thus we have faith God's love can overcome and wash clean any sin in His blood.

Yet it is as important for us to go to God when we sin for cleansing and healing; as it is to go for help when we have physical wounds, because sin causes spiritual wounds upon ones soul that only God can heal.

 

[PennEd]

Yes sir, thus my flag but grew up in the USA since I was 2. However Asian culture and values differ from mainstream America. Just as I believe Christian values should differ from the world.

Culture and traditions can differ from family to family. Church to church and that is not wrong.

What I find and treasure in all the churches I have been blessed to attend is the Holy spirit love moving through members to look beyond self and their church to others in the community and needing love, food and shelter.

Plus I like the free food and fellowship. Lol.

Not that it matters in the slightest, but, as we naturally form what a person we are conversing with looks like, I did not envision your nationality of origin as southeat Asian. Lol.

 

[dcontroversal]

Can someone post all the scriptures that says that the Holy Spirit convicts the believer that is in Christ of sin in the New Covenant. Thanks. Let's see them all.

There must be lot's of them because so many in the church say this saying all the time - that the Holy Spirit convicts us believers of sinning.

( I know of one that says that the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of righteousness because Jesus went to the Father for us as our Advocate. )

AMEN....and HE convicts the lost of SIN because they do not believe on Christ.......

 

[Grace777x70]

I firmly believe we need to view ourselves the way that God through the Lord Jesus Christ views us. We need to see ourselves and others through His eyes - from His perspective - from the work of Christ that He has already done for us on the cross and resurrection - that we are His children - beloved and complete in Him. That we truly are a new creation - created in righteousness and holiness in our inner man of the heart.

As we see that we are His children and come to know and believe the love that He has for us - we will grow up in the grace of Christ and become fully grown mature sons/daughters of our loving Father.

We will participate in the family business of telling others the good news of the love and grace our Father and Lord have for all the people of the world.

None of this leads us to sinning. Sin management and sin-consciousness is a tool of religion.

Righteousness consciousness because of Christ's finished work is the dynamic that the Holy Spirit uses to transforms us by the renewing of the mind as we behold the goodness/glory of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Proclaiming the truths that are in Christ releases His grace to walk in our lives all that He has already done for us. We have a great salvation and redemption in Him!

 

[PennEd]

I firmly believe we need to view ourselves the way that God through the Lord Jesus Christ views us. We need to see ourselves and others through His eyes - from His perspective - from the work of Christ that He has already done for us on the cross and resurrection - that we are His children - beloved and complete in Him. That we truly are a new creation - created in righteousness and holiness in our inner man of the heart.

As we see that we are His children and come to know and believe the love that He has for us - we will grow up in the grace of Christ and become fully grown mature sons/daughters of our loving Father.

We will participate in the family business of telling others the good news of the love and grace our Father and Lord have for all the people of the world.

None of this leads us to sinning. Sin management and sin-consciousness is a tool of religion.

Righteousness consciousness because of Christ's finished work is the dynamic that the Holy Spirit uses to transforms us by the renewing of the mind as we behold the goodness/glory of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Proclaiming the truths that are in Christ releases His grace to walk in our lives all that He has already done for us. We have a great salvation and redemption in Him!

I'm curious Bruce. Do you believe our Heavenly Father lovingly corrects us?

I can tell you I love my boys to pieces but I correct them, and in some cases that correction takes the form of punishment they don't like, but afterward, for the most part, they understand and appreciate that I did it solely out of love.

Surely God, who loves us infinitely more than we can love our children, will do the same for us.

 

[dcontroversal]

No one is advocating sinning....you have missed the whole point.

I know what you mean by "man-made traditions" - it's because I don't say that Christians are sinning and dis-obeying God like you say they are because the don't observe the Sabbath as in the4 Old Testament and we say that Christ Himself is our true Sabbath rest.

BROTHER...ALL the workers for who can lose salvation will say that we advocate sin......I have yet to figure out how lying and misrepresenting the facts and or twisting what is said helps their working for café blend salvation....it would seem that lying willfully would cause them to lose their salvation......

 

[PeterJens]

yes, which is why churches like peters church will never help a child f God grow, only give them a false sense of security that they somehow made it,

i know, I grew up in that church, and saw so many good hearted people destroyed by the church that was supposed to help them

This has to be role reversal. The proposition here, if I understand it, people walking
righteously are not, they are just denying the sin that is actually in their lives and
are hypocrites, rejecting Christ and the cross and working for salvation.

So the true church is admiting we are hopeless sinners but Christs righteousness saves
us and keeps us safe from now to eternity, no matter what happens or what we do.

Now these two straw men are just that.

I would hold the people of God are learning how to walk in love and are being transformed
into the likeness of Christ through faith and obedience to the Holy Spirit, repenting of sin
when it arises, and their lives are changing from glory to glory.

Now these people exist in all theological groups, and none have a corner on this reality.

The principle I am standing for is facing sin, and its causes, and seeing this as something
that need not exist, but learning to walk in love and see Christ and the cross changes us.

The light means you see everything, the sin and the good, the lost and the saved.
Nothing pollutes because you walk with Jesus.

The hatred is obvious of "the church" an institution which is to blame, not the believers and
their walk with God and the preachers and their failure to preach Gods word.

After reading reports enough atheist pastors have gone into the church it is not surprising it
creates empty places with no hope, because the pastors who were meant to bring this, never
had faith in some cases to begin with. This is not about religion, but about who is alive and who
is spiritually dead.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

G777 fight against the idea that the Holy spirit convicts believers. He calls it a sacred cow.

I say the word convict in Greek is the same as the word translated chasten. Thus the same concpet PennEd express as "loving correction".

I don't care what word you use. The concept is that God will stop you in your tracks if you live unrighteously in sin and chastens/convict/lovingly correct/rebuke/reprove you by showing you what you did wrong and what He wants you to do and be instead,

I agree with you that we as believers don't need to go around pointing out others sins and judging them. God does that through His holy spirit. However God does call us sometimes to rebuke or chastens others in love. To turn them from the path they are walking away from the world and back to His light and truth. Which is that his love has overcome the world and He has empowered us to do the same.

The word convict is greek elenxie,

the word translated chasten is greek paideia

not sure where you get your info.

Again, this is an argument which is pretty much useless, I is a word or term you both interpret differently, but I am sure if we got to the meat, you both agree.

 

[dcontroversal]

From gotquestions.org

The Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin (John 16:8). To

Nothing else matters in your post because you left off the rest of the verse above....why does it convict the WORLD of SIN????

Post the rest of the verse please.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

AMEN....and HE convicts the lost of SIN because they do not believe on Christ.......

2 Corinthians Chapter 7


9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.



this is to the lost?

it does not apply to those who follow Jesus...
but choose to sin and feel shame for it


or if you still choose sin after "accepting" Jesus were you never in him?

or should you not feel sorrow for your sin?



not trying to argue

or offend

i would like to hear what you have to say on this when you have time please

 

[dcontroversal]

Church traditions have their place in a Christians life. They aren't evil or bad. Like anything in the world people can worship them instead of God. When folks make idols that is when it's bad.

The snake staff used to heal was eventually made into an idol...molech I believe it was called, will have to research.

Sabbath day keeping is a man made tradition and fairly recently created to imitate holiness but has not merit to incrreasing godliness.

They are bad when they are taught as the doctrines of God and in so doing make void the word of God<--by their traditions........Jesus spoke to this problem within the ranks of those who claim to know God.....

 

[Stephen63]

I'd like to make an announcement.

All glory to God, today is my 7 year anniversary of being cancer-free.

Congrats, Blue! I'm glad for you.

 

[Stephen63]

Can someone post all the scriptures that says that the Holy Spirit convicts the believer that is in Christ of sin in the New Covenant. Thanks. Let's see them all.

There must be lot's of them because so many in the church say this saying all the time - that the Holy Spirit convicts us believers of sinning.

( I know of one that says that the Holy Spirit "convicts" the believer of righteousness because Jesus went to the Father for us as our Advocate. )

Where is the scripture that says that the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of sins? None of what you quoted in Hebrews says that.

There must be all kinds of scripture that says the Holy Spirit convicts believers of sins because it seems to be accepted as a fact - just like it is generally accepted that the wise men from the East were at Jesus' birth and that there were 3 of them.

None of that has been shown to be true. It is all church tradition.

Let's post all the scriptures that say that the Holy Spirit convicts "believers" of sins. Let's see how many we can find in the New Testament.

I can see a scripture that says that the Holy spirit convicts the world of sin - because they do not believe on Christ. John 16:8-9

Then Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would "convict" the disciples /believers of righteousness because He goes to the Father. So, John 16:8-10 is out.

What are all the scriptures that say they Holy Spirit "convicts" believer of sins now that they are in Christ. There must be tons of them because almost all Christians say so. Is this one of our church traditions that we have embraced that has no scripture to back it up?

I guess that settles the question of some of what he believes.

 

[dcontroversal]

]A works based LIE......SIN does not send ONE PERSON to HELL......UNBELIEF in the finished work of CHRIST is what sends one to hell.....you better wise up man.......your false gospel falls way short of meeting God's requirement........[/B]

If you desire to argue with Jesus then be my guest, I dont suppose any amount of sound reasoning can reach you at this point in time....the flesh will seek its own comfort zone, an eventually if not kept in check will opt to silence the conscience, whereas it becomes reprobate and can no longer receive anything from the Spirit....This is why Paul said "examine YOURSELF and see if you be in the faith"....those that walk after the flesh in the easy grace circles measure themselves amongst themselves, by themselves, for themselves ( meaning the flesh determines its own righteous standards>>>self righteous). Paul said this was not a good idea, but rather measure yourselves by the word of truth and see if their be any evil way in you.....
i

Pay attention to the bolded....SIN does not send one to hell SPONGE.....rejecting CHRIST and HIS finished work on our behalf is what SENDS ONE TO HELL.....so.....apply your own words to yourself pal....I have trusted JESUS unlike YOU......end of story.....!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This has to be role reversal. The proposition here, if I understand it, people walking
righteously are not, they are just denying the sin that is actually in their lives and
are hypocrites, rejecting Christ and the cross and working for salvation.

they are not, they will tell you they are, they believe in their hearts they are, but when we put their life under a microscope, they are not, it is all a smokescreen for the hidden truth they refuse t see. As I said, I lived it, I was it, you can fool some people. But you can not fool people who lived it,

So the true church is admiting we are hopeless sinners but Christs righteousness saves
us and keeps us safe from now to eternity, no matter what happens or what we do.

no, the church is admitting I will never live up to Gods standard, so instead of trying to make myself be something I can not be, I can focus on learning to be like Christ, and loving others the way he loved me, and the way he demonstrated what they love looks like when he was on earth.

Ie I can seek after the things of the spirit, and thus not fulfill the lust of the flesh (be outward focused, not self focused)

Now these two straw men are just that.

they are not strawman, they are your continued misunderstanding of what people say and believe, they are your made up stories that do not even resemble reality of what anyon is preaching

So as usual, we have to stop in a post you make, because your basing your argument on false truths

 

[gb9]

they are not, they will tell you they are, they believe in their hearts they are, but when we put their life under a microscope, they are not, it is all a smokescreen for the hidden truth they refuse t see. As I said, I lived it, I was it, you can fool some people. But you can not fool people who lived it,



no, the church is admitting I will never live up to Gods standard, so instead of trying to make myself be something I can not be, I can focus on learning to be like Christ, and loving others the way he loved me, and the way he demonstrated what they love looks like when he was on earth.

Ie I can seek after the things of the spirit, and thus not fulfill the lust of the flesh (be outward focused, not self focused)




they are not strawman, they are your continued misunderstanding of what people say and believe, they are your made up stories that do not even resemble reality of what anyon is preaching

So as usual, we have to stop in a post you make, because your basing your argument on false truths

any church that pushes the " God loves good people, God hates bad people, so you must BE good in order to get to Heaven" lie, any church that pushes sinless perfectionism, ( I grew up in the first kind, not the second) is poison that should be exposed.

 

[PeterJens]

BROTHER...ALL the workers for who can lose salvation will say that we advocate sin......I have yet to figure out how lying and misrepresenting the facts and or twisting what is said helps their working for café blend salvation....it would seem that lying willfully would cause them to lose their salvation......

dc - When will you understand perspectives and drop the lying accusation.

A heroin addict may believe he can be cured, but until he stops taking heroin, he
is not cured. If you believe in your heart you can never be free from sinful behaviour,
are never pure, clean and Holy, acceptable before the Lord, you are still polluted
and a sinner lost in sin.

Imagine this. How could anything be brought into the Holy of Holies? Only when they
was cleansed and purified, Num 8:5-13

Now we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, the veil is torn in two, we are regarded as
Holy.

But it appears you do not believe this. You think of yourself as an impure vessel, defiled
by sin, but looked at as if you are Christ.

This is the same as saying a herion addict is cured because their counselor is not an addict,
while they still main line. This is just make believe dream world.

Now our summary of this is to say you accept to walk with Jesus it is ok to be defiled.
If it is not ok to be defiled, then you can never walk with Jesus.

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Either sin is ok, and you fellowship with God, or
sin is not acceptable, and God rejects you because you can never be clean.

It is this simple and polarised. All your complaints are just hot air, because facts are facts,
as some love to tell me. So who is your God and how clean has He made you?

 

[dcontroversal]

Righteousness IS NOT TRANSFERABLE anywhere within the bible...neither is sin transferable....let no man deceive you; he that does righteousness is righteous, and he that sins is of the devil, said the apostle John....

QUOTE]

When are you going to quit lying? You do understand that ALL liars shall have their part in the lake of fire which is the second death right.....YOU consistently LIE (the bolded above)......and by your own dogma will end up lost.....! MAN..you are a deceiver and not of GOD!

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,