The Rapture

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Ahwatukee

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Also the first fruits from Israel came and went in the 1st century. Thousands of Jews were added to the church, it is clear. First fruits refers to the multitude of the Jews who accepted their Messiah, which included the Apostles. 2000 years later can hardly be called first fruits no?

"No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women (male child), for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The 144,000 are the first fruits to God out of Israel
 

PlainWord

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If by war you are referring to the war between Michael and his angels against Satan and his angels, that war has not yet taken place, but will in the middle of the seven years. As proof of this, the war, which is the result of the sounding of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, would have been preceded by trumpets 5 and 6. That said, we have no record of demonic beings being released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of a scorpion.

The 6th trumpet would follow where those four angels would have been released at the great river Euphrates and they and their army of 200 million would have killed a third of the inhabitants of the earth and this certainly hasn't happened.



Gen.37:9-10 makes it very clear that the woman is representing the nation Israel. The woman never becomes the church. The woman of Revelation 12 is representing Israel. In the middle of the seven years Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. The woman/Israel flees out into the desert where she will be cared for by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.



I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way[SUP]e[/SUP] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[SUP]f[/SUP] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[SUP]g[/SUP]

As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Israel) are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God is not done with Israel. On the contrary, He has unfinished business with them, namely, that last seven years in fulfillment of the seventy sevens.



The woman of Rev.17 -18 is not Israel at all, but is that idolatrous city that sits on seven hills, that counterfeit church, Roman Catholicism.



Israel will say exactly this during the time that she is being cared for during that last 3 1/2 years.



During that last seven years not only is God going to fulfill the prophesies regarding Israel, but he is going to pour out his wrath upon the entire Christ rejecting world and that via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. You and those who believe as you do, have no understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath. You have watered it down and diluted it, reducing it to the destruction of the temple. Yet anyone who reads and understands the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, can easily see that the destruction of the temple pales greatly in comparison.

You people are going to unpleasantly surprised when you see the real wrath of God begin. Once the church has been gathered from the earth, the next event to take place will be the initiating of that seven year agreement, which will allow Israel to build her temple. When you see these things begin to take place, then you will know that we were telling you the truth about these things.


Dude, there is no helping you. Your views are so completely false and twisted that no amount of truth is going to sink in. Fortunately the message of salvation is a simple one. Love in Christ my brother;).
 

J7

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Also the first fruits from Israel came and went in the 1st century. Thousands of Jews were added to the church, it is clear. First fruits refers to the multitude of the Jews who accepted their Messiah, which included the Apostles. 2000 years later can hardly be called first fruits no?

no. lol.

It must be figurative then. Such literalism is killing me.

It is first in the sense of last, according to a special law of Biblical hermeneutics which only the very erudite such as myself understand
 
Apr 15, 2017
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lol.

What is the difference between covenant Israel and the Church.

What does Israel mean? It means He Overcomes. He is victorious.

What is the message to all the Churches in Revelation?

"He who overcomes..."


Israel is the Church
True,Israel is the Church.

The Bible says God has not cast away His people He once foreknew,and if the ordinances in heaven are still in effect,the sun,moon,and stars,His covenant is still with Israel,and Jesus said,salvation is of the Jews,and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance,and all Israel shall be saved for God will turn physical Israel to the truth,and when a Gentile is saved they are a Jew inward,and become part of the commonwealth of Israel.

It is Israel all the way,and all the blessings to Israel,which a Gentile can become part of that.

Jews can be saved like everybody else,but the Jews lost the physical kingdom on earth temporarily because of their disdobedience,but will get it back,and then be spiritual when God turns them to the truth.

Nation of Israel given to the Jews,the Old Testament given to them,the New Testament given to them,the millennial reign of Christ given to them,and the New Jerusalem is patterned after Israel,for the 12 tribes of Israel,and the 12 apostles of the Lamb,are written in the New Jerusalem.

It is Israel all the way,from Abraham all the way to the final destination of the saints,the New Jerusalem.
 
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"No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women (male child), for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The 144,000 are the first fruits to God out of Israel
Yeah, they are first fruits to God out of Israel. And it has been 2000 years ago since Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead. Are you saying that during this time 144 000 Israelites have not been saved yet? I would argue that amount was saved within a century.

First fruits refers to something coming first, in the beginning, not 2000 years later at the end, that would be last fruits. Why is this so difficult? Look, you can still hold on to the pre-tribulation rapture even if the first fruits were just that, first fruits.
 

Bookends

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Bookends...I will ask you again to listen to Ahwatukee , VCO and a few others. Surely you do not believe everything PW and the other friend of yours say. You do know your eternal soul is at risk! and they do not care........ They prevert the Bible like it is something written out of one of newspapers of today. They are poking their fingers in God's eye and dragging you down with them.....

Listen to them and look it up for yourself....... for where YOUR SOUL spends its eternity is yours to control.

I will pray that you will change your mindset before it is too late.

Blade
Bladerunner,

It is not from listening to Plainword or KJV1611 that lead me away from dispensationalism. I'm was a preteristic-amillennialist ever since I joined CC in 2012, which was before these guys joined. I have written many post, debated many people using the bible to defend my postition to no avail that I'm aware of. It is clear to me, by interpreting the bible with the bible, by interpreting the unclear passages with the clear passages, that those in Christ in the Church are now ruling with Him in this millennium (time frame). There will be a day when the Lord comes back to raise all the dead, some to eternal damnation and some to eternal life (John 5:29). The dead will raise first, then those alive will be caught up with the Lord in the air while the earth burns with fire (2 Peter 3:7) and is remade/restored. Then God's people will continue down to earth in the eternal state and forever live in eternal bliss. Jesus will hand over this kingdom to the God the Father so that God can be our all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

Having said this, I still reserve the right to be wrong. However, I still believe that the system of eschatology that I hold has more biblical truth and less error.

Sounds like you are in more need of prayer if you think eschatology is what saves a person from their sins. Maybe this is why so many dispensationalist fight so hard for their system of eschatology.

I think knowing you're in Christ's kingdom now, as opposed to waiting for Christ's Kingdom to come, changes your perspective on how we live our lives for Christ. And IMHO, this the most important reason why it matters. The second reason would be going back to animal sacrifices (even if you think it's just a memorial, why would you need a memorial when you could see the holes in Christ's hands and feet?) which would be an insult/abomination to the Trinity and would trample on the blood of Christ.

Perhaps you, or someone on the fence, would read Kenneth Gentry's "Ephesians Road Out of Dispensationalism" (Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6)".
 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Also the first fruits from Israel came and went in the 1st century. Thousands of Jews were added to the church, it is clear. First fruits refers to the multitude of the Jews who accepted their Messiah, which included the Apostles. 2000 years later can hardly be called first fruits no?
Absolutely correct. What many don't realize is that the believing Jews of the first century, the converts to Christ still honored three of their national feasts, Unleavened Bread, Tabernacles and Passover. These Christians would also return to Jerusalem in large numbers for these three feasts as did the Law practicing Jews. Jerusalem in 66 AD was bursting with people who came for Passover. Approximately 3 X the normal population was there when the Roman troops first arrived.

The Christian population, which numbered 144,000 men (counts usually only included the males), included those from every tribe (12K of each). God divinely led this group back to Jerusalem and they all went to the Church of Jerusalem situation on Mount Zion, the site of David's burial. Just prior to Titus replacing Vespasian, an angel came to them and told them to flee which they did, to Pella. This story is in the historical record and written about extensively by the early church fathers.

Not one Christian was lost in the War of the Jews. What an incredible and mostly overlooked story. You of course are 100% correct that this happened in the first century which made them firstfruits. Since then many have died in Christ over the past 2,000 years.

Sadly some think these 144,000 are future, acne faced, snot nosed, virgin Jewish kids in some future tribulation. I know, crazy, but those who think like this are out there by the millions.
 

Ahwatukee

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Many, if not all, pre-tribbers deny it. They deny that the Great Tribulation happened in 70 AD and instead assign it to some future, global wrath against all unbelievers. You see if the GT was in 70 AD, it would destroy their future rapture theory whereby they don't have to face death because they plan to be air lifted off to heaven totally escaping the death of their physical bodies. The problem with this thinking is that it's been proven wrong for nearly 2,000 years now but each generation, I guess, thinks they will be the lucky ones.
And for good reason! Because "Then there will be a time of great tribulation from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. And if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive."

The destruction of the temple does not measure up to the description above. It doesn't even come close! God's vengeance, his wrath is still to come and will be the worst time in the history of the entire world. Anyone who studies the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, can plainly see that nothing like them have yet taken place.

We are not concerned about the death of our physical bodies, but believe because it is the Lord's promise to gather us before His wrath. The appearing of the Lord to gather us, is our blessed hope, which we are told to watch for.
 

J7

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And for good reason! Because "Then there will be a time of great tribulation from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. And if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive."

The destruction of the temple does not measure up to the description above. It doesn't even come close! God's vengeance, his wrath is still to come and will be the worst time in the history of the entire world. Anyone who studies the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, can plainly see that nothing like them have yet taken place.

We are not concerned about the death of our physical bodies, but believe because it is the Lord's promise to gather us before His wrath. The appearing of the Lord to gather us, is our blessed hope, which we are told to watch for.
But if 144,000 have a protective seal, then how can all be killed?
 

Ahwatukee

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Yeah, they are first fruits to God out of Israel. And it has been 2000 years ago since Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead. Are you saying that during this time 144 000 Israelites have not been saved yet? I would argue that amount was saved within a century.

First fruits refers to something coming first, in the beginning, not 2000 years later at the end, that would be last fruits. Why is this so difficult? Look, you can still hold on to the pre-tribulation rapture even if the first fruits were just that, first fruits.
Look at the scripture that I provided, for it states that the 144,000 are the first fruits to God and the Lamb. The 144,000 will be those who come out of unbelieving Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah.
 

J7

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Look at the scripture that I provided, for it states that the 144,000 are the first fruits to God and the Lamb. The 144,000 will be those who come out of unbelieving Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah.
But unbelieving Israel is only Jews. Where you gonna find the other tribes?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Hello Bogadile,

After reading the following you may change your mind about the woman representing Mary:

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

The scripture above identifies the same symbols used in Rev.12 and their meanings are revealed by Jacob:

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Stars = The twelve sons of Israel

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is figurative representing the nation Israel.

It is unbelieving Israel during that time who will be pregnant and will give birth to a male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of her (gives birth to). These will be the first fruits to God who come out of Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah.

Furthermore, if you will compare the male child to Jesus, you will see that Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child:

Jesus = crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven

Male child = Caught up to God and his throne.

Harpazo translated "caught up" is the same word used to describe the living church being changed and caught up to God's throne. The male child is caught up before the dragon can devour it, while in comparison, Jesus was crucified.
The sun, moon and stars always represent EXCEPT when the sun is turned to darkness, the moon to blood and the stars fall to the earth... some how they become literal at that point. Well not exactly literal, the stars are actually asteroids lol.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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And for good reason! Because "Then there will be a time of great tribulation from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. And if those days had been allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive."

The destruction of the temple does not measure up to the description above. It doesn't even come close! God's vengeance, his wrath is still to come and will be the worst time in the history of the entire world. Anyone who studies the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, can plainly see that nothing like them have yet taken place.

We are not concerned about the death of our physical bodies, but believe because it is the Lord's promise to gather us before His wrath. The appearing of the Lord to gather us, is our blessed hope, which we are told to watch for.
Wow. What else can I say? It all happened back then. The seals, trumpets and bowls all dealt with the judgment of Israel in the first century. Deu 28 tells them that they will receive the plagues of Egypt if they break their half of the covenant (which of course they did) so John wrote Revelation using the plagues as figurative language which had literal meaning. After all, the entire earth (Israel) was destroyed. You can't get much worse tribulation than that.

The early Christians were given the blessed hope of seeing Christ return and to not face this wrath. Paul reminded the early church of this all the time. Jesus Himself told them that some standing there would see Him return and He told the Pharisees that they would see Him coming in power (in wrath).
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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But if 144,000 have a protective seal, then how can all be killed?
First, the seal is an identification with God. Those demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss will be commanded to torment the inhabitants of the earth, with the exception of those who have the seal of God in their foreheads, which would be the 144,000.

And second, the 144,000 are not killed, but will be caught up to God and his throne before the dragon can devour them.
 

J7

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The sun, moon and stars always represent EXCEPT when the sun is turned to darkness, the moon to blood and the stars fall to the earth... some how they become literal at that point. Well not exactly literal, the stars are actually asteroids lol.
we need a woot woot button and a grandstand applause button
 

J7

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Apr 2, 2017
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First, the seal is an identification with God. Those demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss will be commanded to torment the inhabitants of the earth, with the exception of those who have the seal of God in their foreheads, which would be the 144,000.

And second, the 144,000 are not killed, but will be caught up to God and his throne before the dragon can devour them.
well then, why worry about terminating the days short, God can just pluck up anyone he wants to save
 
May 11, 2014
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Look at the scripture that I provided, for it states that the 144,000 are the first fruits to God and the Lamb. The 144,000 will be those who come out of unbelieving Israel who will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah.
I did, first fruits. First fruits. First fruits. Not last fruits. First. First meaning in the beginning, the first.

first
fəːst/
number


  • 1.
    coming before all others in time or order; earliest; 1st.

 

Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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AHW,

This is a common misconception.




The Woman in Rev 12 starts off as all of Israel. When Christ ascended back into heaven after the Cross, war broke out in heaven. It should be easy to imagine that when victorious Christ who just defeated death returned to heaven that He might have more than a few words with Satan. This is when Satan was cast down to earth. The woman now became the Church. The Jews who rejected Christ were no longer part of the Bride, their branches were cut off. We see in vs 10-11 that salvation had come (the kingdom and power of Christ) and that the woman (the Church) overcame Satan by the Blood of the Lamb.

Once Satan gets to earth, 1,260 days after Christ returns to heaven, he immediately wages war against the Church. The first martyr, Stephen is killed. The Christians are all subject to massive persecution and martyrdom wherever the Gospel was spread. But in vs 14, the woman (the Church) is told to flee to Pella (the wilderness) just prior to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Here the Church is nourished for 3.5 years until the war is over. Satan, not being able to do further harm to the Church attacks the off-spring, the rejecting Jews inside Jerusalem and slaughters 1.1 million of them leaving only 98,000 left alive. These are taken to Rome where many more are put to death in the Colosseum.

The other woman, of Rev 17, was apostate Jerusalem (the Christ rejecting murdering Jews). They are the ones, "drunk with the blood of the saints and the martyrs of Jesus." This woman, arrayed in purple and scarlet (the colors of the garments worn by the Jewish priests) all decked out with gold and precious stones, killed their Messiah and many of His followers. The "beast" that carried this woman was Rome. Rome supported this filthy harlot, the Jewish customs and priestly leaders and even put their Messiah to death for this woman.

But in 70 AD, Rome turns on this filthy harlot Woman and absolutely slaughters her, burns down her vile temple, kills the remaining priests and desolates the city. "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.” - This is Jerusalem, the "holiest" city on the planet at that time. Everyone was in awe over Jerusalem in those days.



Jerusalem also sits on 7 hills. Look it up. The harlot of Rev 17 being Jerusalem is absolutely clear from Mat 23. The same symbolism John uses in Rev 17 is first found here, in Mat 23 (right before the Olivet), "fill up" as in "cup."

[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [SUP]32[/SUP]Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! [SUP]38 [/SUP]See! Your house is left to you desolate; [SUP]39 [/SUP]for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Can't you see that the Wrath of God was aimed at them??? God had it with them!!! Try really hard and look back on the entire history of the Jewish race from Abraham to the death of Christ and recognize who rejected Christ, scourged Him, killed Him and His disciples. This stiff necked nation had been disobedient more in 2,000 years then they were ever obedient. This is why the Church came about, the kingdom was given to another. All of this is why God destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It's desolation foretold by Daniel and the other prophets was the conclusion of those wicked nightmare people. The significance of the destruction of Jerusalem cannot be overstated. It was the end. It was finished. God's wrath concluded.
Too add;

1 Thessalonians 2:

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen
(gentiles), just as they (Jewish Christians in the church of Jerusalem) did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us (Paul and the apostles) to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their (apostate Jews) sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Fulfillment of Daniel 9:24, "to finish the transgression". The apostate Jews/Jerusalem could do no more to add to the cup of God's wrath. Just like in Noah's day, the wicket people of the world filled up God's wrath which led Him to destroy them by a flood. Just like in Abraham's day, the City of Sodom and Gomorrah in which they also filled God's cup of wrath and led to their destruction. Once God reaches to the point of His cup of wrath being filled, destruction/judgment happens. There were/are no further sins (transgressions) the Jews can accumulate to add to God's cup of wrath. God has judged them, now we must lump them in with the rest of the unbelievers (gentile unbelievers, the world) to be punished/destroyed once and for all on the Last Day.
 

Ahwatukee

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The seals, trumpets and bowls all dealt with the judgment of Israel in the first century.


Obviously you have not studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Not understanding the severity of these judgments is a common error.

When has a third of the earth and trees ever been burned up?

When has there been something like a huge mountain all ablaze hit in one of the oceans killing a third of the creatures in the sea and a third of the ships destroyed?

When have a third of the rivers and fresh water been contaminated killing many people?

When has a third of the sun, moon and stars been struck so that they turn dark by a third, so that the earth is missing a third of its normal light during both night and day?

When has an angel opened the Abyss and released demonic beings to torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of scorpions?

When has an army of fallen angels killed a third of mankind via fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from their mouths. And that in addition to a fourth of the earths population that will have been killed at the opening of the 4th seal?

The results of Bowl judgments 2 and 3 has the ocean and fresh waters all turned into literal blood.

The fourth angel pours out his bowl on the sun and it is give power to scorch people with intense heat. When has that happened?

These are all just off the top of my head and none of them have been fulfilled.

so John wrote Revelation using the plagues as figurative language which had literal meaning.


John is not the author of Revelation, God is. Nothing that John wrote was from his own understanding but from what he saw and heard.

After all, the entire earth (Israel) was destroyed. You can't get much worse tribulation than that.


In writing the book of Revelation, God knows the difference between the land of Israel vs. the entire earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire planet, so yes, you can get much worse than just referring to Israel.

The early Christians were given the blessed hope of seeing Christ return and to not face this wrath.


The promises that Christ made are directed to the entire church and not just a small sliver of it, which is what the case would be if you have Jesus returning in 70 AD. When the church is gathered, those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church until the resurrection will be resurrected. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed and caught up, meeting those who will have resurrected in the clouds. At this point the entire church will be present and will be taken back to the Father's house according to the promise in John 14:1-3.

Jesus Himself told them that some standing there would see Him return


Man! You guys really need to pay attention to the details instead of just repeating what you hear. Those standing there that would not taste of death were peter, James and John, which was fulfilled when Jesus took them up to that high mountain and they saw Jesus in his glorified state. He was not making reference to his return to end the age.
 

Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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The scripture you provided above does not support your claim of Jerusalem/Israel being the woman of Rev.17-18. Reason being is that, during the last 3 1/2 years the woman who rides that beast, which is identified as that great city who rules over the kings of the earth, is destroyed at that time. So much so, that no one will ever inhabit her again, just as it is described in the scripture that you provided above. The problem is that, scripture makes clear that Jerusalem will be inhabited during the millennial period, as can be seen from the following scripture:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So according to the scripture above, after Satan is released he deceives the nations figuratively called Gog and Magog and they surround the camp of God's people, the city he loves, which could only be referring to the city He's always loved, Jerusalem.

Therefore, if the woman, which is that city that sits on seven hills was Jerusalem as you say and that city is completely destroyed, then how could we see Gog and Magog surrounding Jerusalem at the end of the thousand years?

The answer is that Jerusalem is not the woman who rides the beast, not the woman who sits on seven hills and is not the woman referred to in Rev.17-18.

15 biblical reasons or identifiers that Babylon the great harlot is 1st century Jerusalem, 16 if you read the whole thread. I'm not going to re-post it but anyone can go to it and read it.

Who is Babylon the Great Harlot