The Rapture

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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The word, "reign" is not found in the Greek text. The word is Kathizo, 2523; another form of 2516 (to sit down, to sit) to settle - continue, set, sit (down), tarry.

He doesn't stay there and reign for any period of time such as 3.5 years. This thinking has led many to not realize the Man of Sin was Titus. He was the only foreign ruler since Paul spoke of him to sit down as a god in the Temple of God. Then the temple was destroyed never to be built again.

AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.

I combine with revelation 13


17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

I do not think it happen in Titus era.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
No,there is zero in that passage about either of those items.

You ASSUME it.

You ASSUME there were those that thought the church disappeared.

You actually think Paul would address those two non mentioned items,and not allude to the total insanity that the church was raptured when they could just look around and see that they were not raptured?????

"oh,thanks paul,I thought we were missing"
Than why Paul said do not any one decieved you? Deceive from what?


3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over eve
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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Than why Paul said do not any one decieved you? Deceive from what?


3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over eve
The key to understanding that verse is the previous verse where it says "That ye be not SOON shaken in mind. Think about what was about to happen in the very near future that was so BAD that they would think that it was the day of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 KJV
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
The key to understanding that verse is the previous verse where it says "That ye be not SOON shaken in mind. Think about what was about to happen in the very near future that was so BAD that they would think that it was the day of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 KJV
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
It does' say what happen in the very near future, it say ​has already come


2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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It does' say what happen in the very near future, it say ​has already come


2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come
Where does Paul say something had already came? It says don't be troubled that the day of Christ is at HAND. There's nothing past about that statement and that statement doesn't come from some false statements by someone else.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
Where does Paul say something had already came? It says don't be troubled that the day of Christ is at HAND. There's nothing past about that statement and that statement doesn't come from some false statements by someone else.
I qoute that from kjv,

2 thesalonians 2

[h=3]The Man of Lawlessness[/h]2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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I qoute that from kjv,

2 thesalonians 2

The Man of Lawlessness

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
No wonder you confused on the day of Christ. Geez man that Bible is screwed up big time.
 
May 11, 2014
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0
No wonder you confused on the day of Christ. Geez man that Bible is screwed up big time.
It says in the Greek on my e-sword that the word is Christos so it is day of Christ indeed. But maybe the other translations use a different source text to translate from? So hence the translation is good, it is just a translation of a different manuscript / source text.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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It says in the Greek on my e-sword that the word is Christos so it is day of Christ indeed. But maybe the other translations use a different source text to translate from? So hence the translation is good, it is just a translation of a different manuscript / source text.
There's way more wrong than just Christ, the two bibles have completely different meanings.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
No wonder you confused on the day of Christ. Geez man that Bible is screwed up big time.
In this original say is present, to me mean is happening, to day, not tomorrow.

If it mean tommorow, than Paul said it will happen tommorow or next year etc.

present mean already there when he say
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[TR]
[TD]1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Than why Paul said do not any one decieved you? Deceive from what?


3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over eve
There are two different groups of people and two different deceptions being discussed by Paul in the 2 Thes 2:1-12 passage.

The first group is the Church of the Thessalonians of 51-52 AD
The first deception is the idea that Christ's presence had already returned.

Note: There is no need to warn them about this if Christ's presence would be thousands of years from then.

The second group are the 1.1 million Jews who perished in Jerusalem from 66-70 AD.
The second deception was the idea that their king, Caesar, came to liberate them from the 3 tyrants who were killing and abusing them.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
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In this original say is present, to me mean is happening, to day, not tomorrow.

If it mean tommorow, than Paul said it will happen tommorow or next year etc.

present mean already there when he say
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[TR]
[TD]word
N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]3383 [e]
mēte
μήτε
nor
Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD]1223 [e]
di’
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[/TR]
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[TD]1992 [e]
epistolēs
ἐπιστολῆς ,
letter
N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
as if
Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1223 [e]
di’
δι’
by
Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1473 [e]
hēmōn
ἡμῶν ,
us
PPro-G1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
as [saying]
Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
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Conj[/TD]
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[TD]1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
"At hand" means presently... like on the door step.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,587
113
It does' say what happen in the very near future, it say ​has already come


2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come

Covenient of you to keep the word ASSERTING in tiny print. READ IT NOW, if you know what ASSERTING means.

This will help:



2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,587
113
In this original say is present, to me mean is happening, to day, not tomorrow.

If it mean tommorow, than Paul said it will happen tommorow or next year etc.

present mean already there when he say
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[TR]
[TD]word
N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]3383 [e]
mēte
μήτε
nor
Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1223 [e]
di’
δι’
by
Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1992 [e]
epistolēs
ἐπιστολῆς ,
letter
N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
as if
Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1223 [e]
di’
δι’
by
Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1473 [e]
hēmōn
ἡμῶν ,
us
PPro-G1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
as [saying]
Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
But the REAL Question is what does GOD mean by SOON, or Tomorrow, or DAY of the LORD ? ? ?


OH, I REMEMBER:


DAY TWO is not even over YET:


2 Peter 3:8-9 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
No,there is zero in that passage about either of those items.

You ASSUME it.

You ASSUME there were those that thought the church disappeared.

You actually think Paul would address those two non mentioned items,and not allude to the total insanity that the church was raptured when they could just look around and see that they were not raptured?????

"oh,thanks paul,I thought we were missing"
...and so it went,way back then,that had it not been for paul,they would have continued to think they were all raptured.

...and to think those wacky false teachers had em convinced they were missing.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Covenient of you to keep the word ASSERTING in tiny print. READ IT NOW, if you know what ASSERTING means.

This will help:



2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.
Alleging nor asserting should be in that verse. Those words destroy the meaning of the verse
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,587
113
lol,First I should state that I do also see that Jesus is the creator of all creation and is God.

My reason for saying that at that time was that in the thread it was being discussed as to if God was doing certain things out of anger or not.

I should also state that this that I said although not a direct quote was not my own original thoughts but Irenaeus in A.H. 3.22.3 CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.22 (St. Irenaeus) and the next page is also speaking of the same subject. This is something that was discussed by the second century church in reference to Hebrews 1 Interlinear Bible Hebrews 1 "made a little lower" and also Colossians 1:15 and other scriptures Romans 5:14.

The point I think is in that he(saviour) both existed prior to the creation and was from the beginning to be born into the world flesh as it's saviour not that it was an after thought that he was made "because we sinned" he existed before the creation was made and was who he was before it was ever created.

Colossians 1 Interlinear Bible it's something that I've looked at for years (because of different threads discussing it) and find it interesting to note the exact words i.e. "Made,created ect." in reference to Jesus and the comment made in Hebrews "today I have begotten you",,,"only begotton son" ect.

Anyway I see him as the creator and God just as you(I appreciate your efforts to help me because of thinking I misunderstood that though,lol) .
So what part of THE WRATH OF GOD, do you find unbelievable?


Revelation 6:16-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

Isaiah 57:16-18 (NRSV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I will not continually accuse, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirits would grow faint before me, even the souls that I have made.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Because of their wicked covetousness I was angry; I struck them, I hid and was angry; but they kept turning back to their own ways.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I have seen their ways, but I will heal them; I will lead them and repay them with comfort, creating for their mourners the fruit of the lips.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
But the REAL Question is what does GOD mean by SOON, or Tomorrow, or DAY of the LORD ? ? ?


OH, I REMEMBER:


DAY TWO is not even over YET:


2 Peter 3:8-9 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

You see God could have killed them all when they murdered His Son in 30 AD. But He gave them 40 years of instruction (just as He did when they wandered in the desert after Egypt) to repent. Instead they got worse and worse. In the end they were sacrificing people and priests in the temple and setting themselves up as priests, wearing their robes and making their own sacrifices and using the utensils of the temple. They were also killing their own countrymen and robbing them of everything they had. After the 40 years (having first given them the sign of Jonah by Christ while He was with them, God gave them a year for every day He was going to give Nineveh), God had enough and brought Titus to completely and utterly wipe them out except for 98,000 who called upon the Lord to be saved.
 
Last edited:

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,972
4,587
113
Alleging nor asserting should be in that verse. Those words destroy the meaning of the verse

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (NRSV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here.


It still reads the same to me, because "to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here" referrs back first part of the sentence, as thinking or being taught that it had already happened had effect that it was causing them to be shaken in mind. THEY WERE SHOOK UP, BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THEY MISSED IT.

If errors arise among Christians, we should set them right; and good men will be careful to suppress errors which rise from mistaking their words and actions. We have a cunning adversary, who watches to do mischief, and will promote errors, even by the words of Scripture. Whatever uncertainty we are in, or whatever mistakes may arise about the time of Christ's coming, that coming itself is certain. This has been the faith and hope of all Christians, in all ages of the church; it was the faith and hope of the Old Testament saints. All believers shall be gathered together to Christ, to be with him, and to be happy in his presence for ever. We should firmly believe the second coming of Christ; but there was danger lest the Thessalonians, being mistaken as to the time, should question the truth or certainty of the thing itself. False doctrines are like the winds that toss the water to and fro; and they unsettle the minds of men, which are as unstable as water. It is enough for us to know that our Lord will come, and will gather all his saints unto him. A reason why they should not expect the coming of Christ, as at hand, is given. There would be a general falling away first, such as would occasion the rise of antichrist, that man of sin. There have been great disputes who or what is intended by this man of sin and son of perdition. The man of sin not only practises wickedness, but also promotes and commands sin and wickedness in others; and is the son of perdition, because he is devoted to certain destruction, and is the instrument to destroy many others, both in soul and body. As God was in the temple of old, and worshipped there, and is in and with his church now; so the antichrist here mentioned, is a usurper of God's authority in the Christian church, who claims Divine honours.

Matthew Henry Concise Bible Commentary.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
In this original say is present, to me mean is happening, to day, not tomorrow.

If it mean tommorow, than Paul said it will happen tommorow or next year etc.

present mean already there when he say
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]word
N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]3383 [e]
mēte
μήτε
nor
Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1223 [e]
di’
δι’
by
Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1992 [e]
epistolēs
ἐπιστολῆς ,
letter
N-GFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
as if
Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1223 [e]
di’
δι’
by
Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1473 [e]
hēmōn
ἡμῶν ,
us
PPro-G1P[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
as [saying]
Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: tablefloat"]
[TR]
[TD]1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
So what is your theory.

Play it out and make your post trib rapture point.

I already showed you how that passage is easily twisted to fit 3 different camps.