Not By Works

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PHart

Guest

Works are NOT required in, around, on top, beside, below, under or in any other place, for salvation.

Emphasis on required.
Right, works are not required to solicit a declaration of right standing with God, but they are required in that the person who has a declaration of right standing with God through faith will have works on the Day of Judgment. If he doesn't, John says that person is a LIAR, and that they do not know Him and the truth is not in them.

Can you see the difference between those two ways that works are 'required' in salvation? Are you still only able to hear the argument as works are required because they earn salvation? Nobody here that I know of is saying that works earn salvation. It's only being heard that way, even though it's being thoroughly explained that works are only required in salvation because works are what people saved by faith (all by itself) do. Understand?
 
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Sully

Guest
Don't stop believing...
Santa clause is comin' to town? that fits the works doctrine i think. Better watch out, better not cry Just a small town girl livin' in a lonely world, i'm tellin' you why, don't stop believin', he sees you when you're sleeping...
 
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PHart

Guest
Works are not required in salvation but rather a manifestation of salvation. Works by themselves do not save. Hopefully this passage will clarify this scriptural point.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
Hopefully, you are simply supporting what I'm saying and that you do not think I'm saying works earn salvation. Works are the 'required' manifestation of genuine faith. If your 'faith' does not manifest that way, you do not have the faith that saves all by itself (Galatians 5:6).
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
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PHart

Guest
A true believer does not stop believing. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. See 1 John 2:19.
And that's great and awesome Calvinist teaching. I'm not going to dissuade you from it. At least you agree that only BELIEVERS (present tense) are saved. That's the important point. Kudos for you.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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If you are paying full attention to the 613 commandmants of God, and you obey them all 24/7/365 X your life, you won't sin. Every sin we commit is a result of us willfully ignoring the Mosaic Law.The law is perfect.
Thank God for Mercy and Grace.
Hi Limey410v2

[FONT=&quot]How many commandments are in God’s 10 commandments? Seems like you are getting the God's Law mixed up with the laws of Moses that were finished at the cross. These posts may help linked.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gods Law and the laws of Moses (1)

Gods Law and the laws of Moses (2) [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Shadows of things to come (1)
Shadows of things to come (2)
Shadows of things to come (3) [/FONT]

God bless you all:rolleyes:
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Santa clause is comin' to town? that fits the works doctrine i think. Better watch out, better not cry Just a small town girl livin' in a lonely world, i'm tellin' you why, don't stop believin', he sees you when you're sleeping...
I can't help but think of Cory Monteith when I think of Glee... Satan is taking the lives of many, putting people in the ground before they confess with their mouths and believe in their hearts...
 
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PHart

Guest
I asked this before, but what is a return to unbelief?
You stop trusting in Christ's blood for the payment of your sins. You either don't care anymore that your sins need payment outside of yourself because you've been led away into the lusts of the flesh, or you are trusting in something else to pay your sin debt. Either way, that unbelief will invariably manifest itself in a return to the old life of sin, and worse. Just as the continued believing of the believer will invariable manifest itself in ever-increasing works of righteousness.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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I agree but I still want to highlight "wilful sin" as a very specific reference within the context of this verse as a reference to specific Hebrew understanding at the time, which the author states in verse 9.In the context of Hebrews "wilful sin" is defined.
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]According to Hebrews, even Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) only covers 'sins of ignorance'
'But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance' (Heb 9:7, NIV)
The Old Testament sacrifices did not cover anything beyond 'sins of ignorance'.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Even then the fathers of faith committed wilful sin Abraham, Isaac, Jacob....where did they go for forgiveness? .... directly to God ...there was still grace back then. Amen!!:)
The author is saying if you go back to the Old System there is no sacrifice to cover "wilful sin" .... except judgement, but that judgement (which is not damnation) which would not be pleasant.
I reality they could not go back even if they wanted to but they could not yet understand.
The entire letter is a comparison of the old versus the new, and why the new is better. The writer is explaining to the Hebrews we have a better promise where all sins are covered. This whole letter just tells me how hard it was for these Hebrews to wrap there mind around this new covenant, I guess we see that even still.:(
Hi UG,

This was for you.
Let's look at all the context of Heb 10:26-29 shall we and see what the scripture is saying?

HEB 10


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, [SUP]
20
[/SUP] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[SUP]21[/SUP] And having an high priest over the house of God;[SUP]
22
[/SUP]Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.[SUP]
23
[/SUP]Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[SUP]25[/SUP] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.[SUP]
26
[/SUP] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[SUP]
27
[/SUP] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]
28
[/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29[/SUP] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[SUP]
30
[/SUP]For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, says the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Context points:

* Being saved by the blood of Christ
* Let us hold fast our profession of faith not wavering
* Provoking one another unto love and to good works
* Assemble together exhorting one another because the day of God is approaching
* WARNING against wilful SIN after receiving a knowledge of the truth; there remains no more sacrifice
* Continuing in wilful SIN results in a fearful looking forward to the Judgement and fiery indignation that will devour those that practice SIN.
* You see what happened in the day of Moses and how people were put to death for not obeying his law
* How much more will the punishment be for those that have trodden underfoot the Son of GOd and hath counted the Blood of the Covenant (new Covenant = Blood of Jesus) and Unholy thing and done despite to the Spirit of God.
* God will Judge His people and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God!

So in summary SIN is the context. SIN is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4). If we come to Jesus and receive a knowledge of the Truth and willfully continue in SIN we are treading underfoot the Son of God and counting the Blood of the Covenant an UNHOLY thing (because SIN is the opposite of HOLY) and resisting or ignoring the Spirit of Grace. So what is the problem here in Heb 10:19:31? It is WILFUL SIN after you receive the truth of God's Word! Hope this helps you. Your better off however studying God's Word for yourself and asking Jesus to be your teacher. If you are professing to be a Christian and are practicing wilful known SIN than the punishment applies to you. If you profess to know God while doing this then God's Word says you are not following God....

1Jo 2:4,
He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jam 2:10,

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


Can anyone show me one bible verse that says that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day? That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED? God's 7th Day Sabbath is also the 4th Commandment in God's Law (Ex 20:8-11). If we break any of God's 10 commandments we are guilty of SIN. All will stand before God on the day of Judgement for the things we have all done in this life.

Isa 55:6-7,
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon
.

God bless:)
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
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Hopefully, you are simply supporting what I'm saying and that you do not think I'm saying works earn salvation. Works are the 'required' manifestation of genuine faith. If your 'faith' does not manifest that way, you do not have the faith that saves all by itself (Galatians 5:6).
Galations 5:1-6
1Christ has set us free for freedom. Therefore, stand firm and don’t submit to the bondage of slavery again.
2Look, I, Paul, am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, having Christ won’t help you. 3Again I swear to every man who has himself circumcised that he is required to do the whole Law. 4You people who are trying to be made righteous by the Law have been estranged from Christ. You have fallen away from grace! 5We eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness through the Spirit by faith. 6Being circumcised or not being circumcised doesn’t matter in Christ Jesus, but faith working through love does matter.
 
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tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
Hopefully, you are simply supporting what I'm saying and that you do not think I'm saying works earn salvation. Works are the 'required' manifestation of genuine faith. If your 'faith' does not manifest that way, you do not have the faith that saves all by itself (Galatians 5:6).
I agree completely with this, I just wanted to clarify what was said. No, works do not earn salvation. Salvation is a gift based on faith. Works are a manifestation of the saving faith in Jesus dying on the cross for our sins.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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And that's great and awesome Calvinist teaching. I'm not going to dissuade you from it. At least you agree that only BELIEVERS (present tense) are saved. That's the important point. Kudos for you.
I believe the testament of Scripture. Nothing can snatch us from His hands. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. His children hear His voice; He knows us, and we follow Him. Those He predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. That is past tense. What do you make of that?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
. Just as the continued believing of the believer will invariable manifest itself in ever-increasing works of righteousness.
ever increasing....

if your last action is sinful

after 1000 back to back good works


do you believe you go to hell for "dying in sin" ?


(not poking or prodding.... curious on your understanding)
 
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Sully

Guest
You stop trusting in Christ's blood for the payment of your sins.
Speaking for myself only, how do you see this occurring? Maybe you have a revelation we could all benefit from.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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Can anyone show me one bible verse that says that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day? That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED? God's 7th Day Sabbath is also the 4th Commandment in God's Law (Ex 20:8-11). If we break any of God's 10 commandments we are guilty of SIN. All will stand before God on the day of Judgement for the things we have all done in this life.

Stonesoffire wrote:
I did answer this on another thread. Perhaps you didn't see it. I hope this time you will. The seventh day Sabbath was for the nation of Israel after they came into their rest which was their land. This is physical, tied to the earthly realm which is not what the body of Christ is all about.

So looking here at the NT..
~Heb 4:8
  For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken later about another day. The day...a period of time. And it was Joshua and Caleb who had another spirit of bravery and belief that took them into their land.
 
Heb 4:9
There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God, The body of Christ is the people of God. Am sure you would agree if you are born again. So what is the spiritual Israels rest? Where is our Head? And where is the body spiritually? Jesus has already entered this rest. But, it remains yet for the body of Christ on earth to enter. There is a body of believers already there.
~
Heb 4:9
  There remainethG620 thereforeG686 a restG4520 to theG3588 peopleG2992 of God.
G2316
rest:
~
G4520
σαββατισμός
sabbatismos
sab-bat-is-mos'From a derivative of G4521; a "sabbatism", that is, (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven): - rest.
Total KJV occurrences: 1
The final resting place for those of obedience...belief which leads to faith. We hear the Word, believe it's true, and the gift of faith is released to us. Heaven.
Our Sabbath rest. We do keep it Holy. Guard the way within our heart.


Heb 4:10
  because the one who enters God's rest has himself rested from his own actions, just as God did from his. 
Heb 4:11
  Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fail by following their example of disobedience. 

Hi Stonesoffire,
The questions were; Where does it say in Hebrews Chapter 4 that the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day is no longer God’s Sabbath Day?
Where does it say in Hebrews Chapter 4 that the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

Read it again all of Hebrews Chapter 4 it does not say this whatsoever.


I am happy that someone here at least wants to share God’s Word. You have quoted Heb 4:8-11. Let’s look at the whole context of the scriptures in Hebrews 4.

HEB 4
King James Bible
A Sabbath-Rest for God's People
(Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 16:22-36)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limited a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Context: for Heb 4:9-11

· Fear that the promise being left us any of us should fall short of entering God’s rest (v1)
· The Gospel was preached to the people in the Wilderness as well as us. The Word did not profit those in the wilderness because of their unbeliefit (v2)
· For we which have believed do enter into His Rest. The people in the wilderness that did not believe God did not enter into His Rest even though works were finished from the foundation of the world (v3)
· Speaking of the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath and the last day of the creation week (Gen 2:1-3) (v4)
· God’s rest (Gen 2:1-3), those that believe enter into God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath rest those that do not believe do not enter into God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath rest (v5-6)
· Harden not your heart in unbelief (v7-8)
· There is a rest for the people of God (v9)
· Those that enter into God’s rest cease from works as God did v10
· We should labour to enter into God’s rest (Gen 2:1-3) faith in God’s Word (rest through believing God) v11
· The Word of God is powerful. v12


Please go back and look at the Greek meaning of the word "rest" used in Heb 4:9 its meaning is resting through keeping of a Sabbath or Sabbath observance. (I have provided Greek links below)

“There remaineth therefore a [Sabbath] rest [SUP]4520[/SUP] to the people of God.” (NAS; Heb 4:9)
The Greek word literally means “Sabbath keeping” or “Sabbath observance.” (links below)
Strong's Concordance 4520
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Short Definition: a Sabbath rest
Definition: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.


Strong's Greek 4520

σαββατισμὸς — 1 Occ.
Hebrews 4:9N-NMS
GRK: ἄρα ἀπολείπεται σαββατισμὸς τῷ λαῷ
NAS: there remains a Sabbath rest for the people
KJV: therefore a rest to the people
INT: Then remains a sabbath rest to the people

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4520: σαββατισμός
σαββατισμός, σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath); 1. a keeping sabbath. 2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians (R. V. sabbath rest): Hebrews 4:9. (Plutarch, de superstit. c. 3; ecclesiastical writings.)


So let’s pull Hebrews 4:1-12 all together?
The context is God’s rest from the week of creation on the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day of the creation week (Heb 4:1-5). Those that did not enter into God’s rest (7th Day Sabbath) did not enter in because of their unbelief and disobedience (sins) to God’s Word. The Gospel was preached unto them but they did not believe it (Heb 4:2). God did not give them His true rest (Heb 4:5-8). This is the same warning for those that disobey Him and do not follow His Word. Only those that believe and obey God’s Word enter into his 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath rest (Heb 4:6, 9, 10-12). So as you can see Hebrews 4:1-12are not answering the earlier questions. In fact these scriptures support and talk about God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath those that entered into God’s rest and those that did not. So the questions remain…..

Can anyone show me one bible verse that says that the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?
That says the seventh day Sabbath is ABOLISHED?

Hope this helps.

God bless



 
Apr 30, 2016
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Do you actually believe anything has changed?
Or not?
Oh yes GraceNpeace.

But who could keep up with this very popular thread.
It's 2 am here now.

What has changed?
Satan is no longer in charge of us even though we live in his home.
Death has been conquered.
The gates of heaven have been opened up for us to enter.
Fellowship with God has been restored.

Nuff for ya?
There's more but it's too late.
Night.
 
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PHart

Guest
amen...... saved comes first by faith......it is a done deal already before ONE work ever comes as the result of....and last time I checked.....1 cup of cold water in the name of Jesus or a disciple does not go unnoticed and or unrewarded......imagine that....guy believes in Jesus, is born again eternally and 50 years later gives a cup of cold water in the name of JESUS or a disciple......He was saved the whole time.......!
The important thing is that you have something to show for the faith you claimed you had while you were in the body. If you get to the Judgment having trusted in a dead faith (faith with no works attached) you will find that you have been trusting in a faith that can not save you. You will be cast into the eternal fire.

That's why the Bible exhorts us to make our calling and election sure, so we can know NOW that we do indeed have the faith that really did solicit a declaration of righteousness and which will usher us through the coming Judgment safely. It's too late on the Day of Christ's return to do anything about it if you realize then you really didn't have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works.

See, the Bible doesn't say take comfort in your workslessness. It says be diligent to 'do' so that you can know that your calling and election is a sure thing and, therefore, you will be richly welcomed into the kingdom at the end of the age:

"he who lacks these qualities (see context) is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:9-11 NASB)
 
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Jun 1, 2016
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ever increasing....

if your last action is sinful

after 1000 back to back good works


do you believe you go to hell for "dying in sin" ?
naw wise man...it just means we need to follow peters example and follow the conviction that leads to repentance of that sin or any other we become aware of. its not condemnation without Hope to fall, stumble, even walk the other way...it becomes condemnation when were prompted over and over to repent of the sin in our Lives and we end up ignoring the spirit and putting out the fire in us. One awesome thing about Jesus Our Lord, is He is there for the ery purpose to call the worst of us to repentance through the workings of Gods Word in our Mind and Heart, and the spirit given through the Lord Jesus. were only accountable for what we personally Know is sin.

its why i can never judge you, and you can never judge me. Gods spirit is with us and judges us according to our thoughts, Knowledge and the intent of Our Heart. he wont destroy us even if weve done something terrible.....we destroy Ourselves through resisting repentance and righteousness, those things are gifts we pray for and receive as well. Hes always there with arms wide open and a pateint and steadfast Love for us willing that we repent and Live and learn and grow. internally, we can either fear His word because we Know it will cause conviction against the sin we enjoy as humans and cause change, or we can embrace His word take it to Heart, and commit to giving Our Whole Lives, whole Hearts to Him for what He has done in making us able to live before God with a name " Child of the Living God"

God bless you man you always Have good stuff ( sorry to jump in im not here much lately)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,787
26,640
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Speaking for myself only, how do you see this occurring? Maybe you have a revelation we could all benefit from.
I think apples and oranges are being discused, because quite frankly, there are people here who say they are protestant while they defend and uphold Roman Catholicism as being superior. Roman Catholicism is filled with people who fall away, though they were not true believers in the first place... they were coerced into conforming on fear of punishment, and simply go through the motions to appease the demands of man while their hearts are far from God, and they have no idea what true saving faith even is.