Not By Works

[FranC]

True.

Chasten means to form. It's a wood working term.
It's eye is on who we are becoming, like Christ.
Convicting of righteousness is actually the idea of chastening.
It's focus is on making us more like the Lord.
And repentance is about what's in front of us, not simply what's behind us.
Jesus Himself says, "Repent for the Kingdom is at hand".

Godly sorry leads to repentance, but it isn't repentance.
Repentance is a change of mind.
The question is what is the change of mind toward?
It's toward God.
The idea isn't a change of mind to how sinful I am, but how righteous I am in Christ.
How good He is, how forgiven I am, etc.

Paul explains this idea by saying, "I am crucified to the world"
The life I now live is in Christ, toward God, focused on God.
Keep your eyes on Heavenly things.
This is true repentance, submitting to Him.

C.

Hi Cee

I agree with all of the above.

Just want to add a thought...
Repentance means what you said it means...
To change direction--- We were walking toward satan. We change our mind, we change direction, turn around and are now walking toward God.

Some people use the word "repent" to mean "sorry for".

"I repent of my sins" = "I'm SORRY FOR my sins".

It's unfortunate that this occurs. One just has to understand what the other person means.
If one truly understands what REPENT means, it even helps to understand our change in behavior and actions.

 

[FranC]

Hi friends,

I don't know the acronyms very well or what others are teaching or their controversies associated with them. But for me many years ago. I believed that I needed to keep God's Law (10 commandments) for my salvation accepting the death and life of Jesus. I was very exacting in what I believed at the time and tried to be very strict in my observance to obey God's Law. I found after some time that the harder I tried the more I saw myself as a sinner going through a cycle of sinning, confessing and repenting the same old sins, until I was ready to give up in discouragement. I also saw myself on the inside. Sometimes I was outwardly never breaking God's Laws but in my thinking it was not a very nice place to be at all. Where was this love I was suppose to have for others. I knew deep down inside that I did not really love people like Jesus wanted me to.

What now? Reading God's Word Jesus is telling me even if I look on a woman to lust I have already committed adultery applying God's Law to my very thoughts? Ok here I lost all hope..... condemned as a sinner....... All my righteousness now was as it is plainly to be seen, filthy rags. I have finally given up all hope of trying to keep God's Law. There is finally nothing that I can do to save myself.

It was at this place for the very first time in my life I met Jesus. I could finally see that it was he who died on the cross for my sins and that I was the chiefest of sinners of whom Christ had come to save! I knew for the very first time in my life that Jesus had come into the world not to save the righteous but bring sinners to repentance. Before I was righteous (in my own eyes) but now I can see myself just how God sees me, sick with sin in need of a Savoir. The Law of God was my schoolmaster that brought me to the cross to meet Jesus for the first time. Here I was at the cross, all undone my complete dependence was no longer on what I could do, but was only on what God's Word says it would do. For the first time I had complete dependence on the Word of God to do what it says it would do and that Jesus was holding out His free gift of salvation to me all he wanted me to do was to believe His Word and it was mine. I saw for the very first time that I love Him because He first loved me.

Now I walk with him. His commandments that brought me to him are no longer his commandments. They are his promises and as I received Jesus I live in Jesus, by faith in his Word to do what it says it will do. Now I obey and follow him because I love him. He has made me free in Him and given me power to walk with him in newness of life. Now I follow the God of creation by faith and dependence on the Word only to do what it says it will do. I love Jesus and His Word. His Words are spirit and they are life! I worship Jesus everyday. I follow His Word by faith and it is he that works in my as I believe His Word. For the very first time I am free in Him, He changes me day by day as I believe His Word.

A counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation.

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (1John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 24). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matt 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God.

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Savior and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of Gods Word. (2Pet 1:4) It is here as we believe God, that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfillment of His new Covenant promise (Heb 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1John 3:6)

God bless you all.

GREAT GREAT GREAT POST

Explains EVERYTHING !

Works before meeting Jesus that do not bring to salvation.
Works after meeting Jesus because we want to please Him.
Our REST in HIM even though we are working, for HIS yoke is easy
and HIS burden is light because He is at our side.

Hope everyone reads the whole post...

 

[JIMBO43]

[SUP]34 [/SUP]No longer will they teach their neighbor,or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” more evidence here that God ranks us all

 

[FranC]

I can say, without a doubt, that you misunderstood me.
I said arguments over whether we have to abide or not are unnecessary when we have such a forgiving God.
I meant the arguments are unnecessary. The abiding is very necessary!
My one main complaint is that in every debate on OSAS/NOSAS, the one "side" gets twisted around in defense of their position to the point that abiding becomes unnecessary. It is impossible to maintain that continuing and growing in trust is unnecessary. It IS the race I am in! By grace through faith can never stand if you remove the faith part later on. It is a defense of eternal life without running the entire race!

Sorry SG

Do I understand you now?
You're saying that we shouldn't even be arguing about abiding in Christ since it's a given.

IF we abide in Christ all His promises are for us and will be realized.

If this is what you meant, I agree 100% and apologize.

 

[JIMBO43]

I hear that quite a lot of people think the new testement Got easier... for me it got a whole lot harder and more law enforcing than the old testement..all tho one thing did change we where no long under the law of moses for now we are now inside the law its self and not underneath it..

 

[FranC]

Fran, another way to try to say what I mean is that...it seems to me that I can understand up to the point where they say they are saved whether they continue in faith or not. That is the point where I cannot follow their construction any longer. When it begins to skew into a statement that abiding is "works", I can no longer comprehend what they think they are building. It's like...the argument should not be works vs. faith. It should be works vs. grace THROUGH FAITH.

Well, let's see...

I don't think it's works vs anything !

I believe what you're saying is that we do works from the grace of God based on our faith in Him.
OK. But so why discuss works at all as if they were a bad thing?

I agree with you.

We are saved BY JESUS. NOT by our works, NOT by our doctrine.
If we are saved by Jesus, we also owe Him a lot. He has given us so much.
IF we understand this, we WANT to do our works for HIM and not for man.

To whom much is given, much will be expected...
God gave to all of us certain gifts as in Romans 12:6-8.
He gives us these gifts so that we can do His will on earth.
We're in the Kingdom, we must do the work of the Kingdom.

This should be a PRIVLEDGE and not something to be argued over, as you have stated.

 

[JIMBO43]

Hi Cee

I agree with all of the above.

Just want to add a thought...
Repentance means what you said it means...
To change direction--- We were walking toward satan. We change our mind, we change direction, turn around and are now walking toward God.

Some people use the word "repent" to mean "sorry for".

"I repent of my sins" = "I'm SORRY FOR my sins".

It's unfortunate that this occurs. One just has to understand what the other person means.
If one truly understands what REPENT means, it even helps to understand our change in behavior and actions.

yup repent is a change of heart... also people need to repent from abusing people with there hert and anger jelousy pride greed and lust... this is also a change of heart that God will know that your not changing from and so you will be called the least unless of course your in captivity...

 

[FranC]

Sure.....works don't save or keep saved......like I told one of your pals above...you can quote 5000 scriptures about works and it will not change the fact that we are not saved or kept saved by works.....

And for the record...I have said that faith plus works to gain, keep or facilitate salvation is false, a dogma with no power to save and as heretical as water immersion for salvation is....

The underlined I totally disagree with and to the bolded....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

There is no such thing as hyper grace and or easy believism..... this (ARE) moronic misnomers invented by the workers for salvation...there is God's unsurpassable grace which saves and then out bounds our sin....now that is the end of the story!

I find it rather unfortunate that you do not believe the Word of God.

If I can list 5,000 verses about Works, and you STILL do not believe they are necessary, it means you DO NOT BELIEVE the Word which God has given to us.

So, I won't waste my time on this since I've written plenty for those reading along,

I'll only say this:

WORKS DO NOT SAVE.

BUT

WORKS KEEP US SAVED.

You entered the Kingdom?
You want to remain in the Kingdom?
You better do the works of the Kingdom.

Not me saying this.
JESUS said it. But you don't believe Him.

 

[FranC]

I hear that quite a lot of people think the new testement Got easier... for me it got a whole lot harder and more law enforcing than the old testement..all tho one thing did change we where no long under the law of moses for now we are now inside the law its self and not underneath it..

It got harder because Jesus explained how it's a heart thing and that makes it easier to sin.
However, let's not forget that we have the Holy Spirit to help us by reminding us of our LOVE
for Jesus who died for us to make us free from the bondage of sin to satan.

When we sin, Jesus now protects us from the evil one and forgives us for as long as we walk and
abide in Him.

So, in a way it's harder, and in a way, it's easier.
If God has freed us, we are free indeed !

 

[FranC]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

You can quote 5000 scriptures about works and it still will not change the fact that we are not saved and or kept saved by works.....!

You see Dcon.

What you state above is true.

NO AMOUNT OF WORK CAN SAVE US.

Any work we do BEFORE we know God is self-righeous works --- trying to get saved by our own effort.

We are SAVED by God's GRACE, MERCY AND JESUS' SACRIFICE, and OUR FAITH in JESUS.

What you don't seem to understand is that there are TWO STEPS to being saved ETERNALLY.

GETTING SAVED.
STAYING SAVED.

You think you don't have to STAY SAVED?

You think you could steal and lie and dishonor your parents, and STILL BE SAVED?

I know you don't believe this because you've said so.

SO... This means that you understand that you must STAY SAVED.
You stay saved by doing GOOD WORKS.

Why do you fight this so???

You do NOT STAY SAVED no matter what.
You MUST ABIDE in Christ.

IF YOU'RE ABIDING IN CHRIST, it means you WANT to do HIS WORKS.
(If you don't WANT to do His works, or speak AGAINST doing them, there's some problem present)

END OF STORY.

 

[FranC]

Verb tense proves eternal life based upon the initial act of faith....we are then KEPT by the power of GOD as JESUS saves to the UTTERMOST having been SEALED unto the day of redemption!

You and others here love the idea of being sealed.

Too bad it's only one or two verses as opposed to the hundreds against this idea.

And you know VERY WELL that you cannot take two verses and make a DOCTRINE out of them.
I'm sure this is one of the very first things you learned in theology class.

You'll be sealed in the Holy Spirit for as long as you WANT to be.

If you don't WANT TO BE anymore, God will LET YOU OUT OF THAT SEALED ENVELOPE.
He will not FORCE YOU to stay in there.

Did you lose your FREE WILL when you became saved?
Is God going to save you even if you don't WANT to be saved?

Think about it.

 

[FranC]

When did you ever see me say that works are an insult to God? I know myself, and those words are not in my thinking.

What I say is that the unsaved does good works too. Anyone can do a good deed because the tree of knowledge is dualistic. We know what is good.

The work of Jesus only saves all mankind, but...one is required to believe. Do you agree here? Did not Jesus die for all the world, and in particular, us who believe, yet was while we were still in sin? Do you agree?

Then what are the works of the new creation body of Christ Jesus? And where do we get our instructions from, remembering that we are now of the new and living way, which is again...the members of His body?

The scriptures are a guide. But, the Voice of God is personal. And the gifts of God enable us to see and hear what the Lord wants in ministering to others. Personally from Him to us...and to us to others. A new Living way.

I truly believe you would like to have this, but there's a block somewhere.

First of all, I wasn't addressing you so I don't know why you're answering for Dcon.
I guess he needs all the help he could get...

Second of all, don't you be worrying about what I'd like to have and what blocks I may have.

Why do you make this personal?
Can't you just speak to the doctrine like I do with you?

 

[FranC]

I know that i am saved through Gods Grace, and i understand that i am only saved because He put the desire in my heart and called me to His Son Jesus...When i first came to this thread, i also shook my head thinking people were saying works saved, but through pages of things being explained, i understand now that you Fran and a few others are NOT saying works keep us saved, but works are to follow once we have been saved and as i go deeper in to my Bible i also can see this, my works i do do not keep me saved but they are things done for God, everything we do we must do it to glorify God lest any man should boast, i believe that somewhere in between the two sides who are battling, one side is deaf and the other blind, is there anyone out there who can actually see this from both sides, i can but i can`t quiet put my finger on it, please don`t shoot me, i am but the messenger ...xox...

It's good that you're thinking about the Rosemary.

Works keep us saved in the sense that we do them because we are Abiding in Christ.

IF we stop doing good works, what does it mean?
If we start being mean to people instead of being nice to them, does it mean we're still IN CHRIST?
Are we still abiding in Him?

Works are a SIGN of our abiding. They of themselves do not keep us saved.
They're a SIGN that we are still saved.

I understand that there's a think red line here, but I believe you're seeing it.

As you read you'll find that Jesus told us to do many things.
Was he just wasting His breath??
Mathew chapters 5 to 7 is sufficient to understand Him.

 

[FranC]

Its a pretty good lesson for kids Fran. Just this one sentence I don't quite see.

" if they don't do what they're supposed to and what the Jesus ant tells them to, it might make God angry because He sees the ant as being very ungrateful toward His love."

This is how I viewed Father too as a kid. I heard a lot about the wrath of God and was fearful of Him. It's a poor picture of our Father in heaven, and scripture says His wrath will only fall on those who have refused His own offering of salvation through His Son.

He just loves us too much to hold anything against us for failures. Otherwise, how could we ever approach Him for restoration?

Remember this:

GOD IS LOVE.
but
GOD IS ALSO JUST.

God is a loving God, but He is also a Just God.

He has not changed from when you were a little girl.
He has not changed from when He spoke in the OT.
Only the MANNER in which we serve Him has been changed.

HE ALWAYS DEMANDED OBEDIENCE AND HE ALWAYS WILL.

 

[Jackson123]

[h=1]“We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”[/h]
― Martin Luther
faith that save is never alone.

why, because faith that save produce fruit, and the fruit is love

 

[Ariel82]

GREAT GREAT GREAT POST

Explains EVERYTHING !

Works before meeting Jesus that do not bring to salvation.
Works after meeting Jesus because we want to please Him.
Our REST in HIM even though we are working, for HIS yoke is easy
and HIS burden is light because He is at our side.

Hope everyone reads the whole post...

Read the whole post and see that it lacks mention of how the Holy spirit leads, the importance of love and how the new Covenant is founded on MORE than keeping of the ten commandments.

It looks like he believes that God just repackaged the old covenant and have it again instead of showing a true understanding of the New Covenant.

 

[FranC]

What I've seen in Frans posts, is that works keep us saved.

I have no idea what this means or how this could be. His Word promises to keep us, and we are kept by His power.

I've listed many verses that show salvation can be lost.

YOU say that Jesus promises to keep us.

Could you list some verses where Jesus makes this promise to keep us NO MATTER WHAT.

Where JESUS says He promises to keep us no matter what.
I like to go by what JESUS said since HE IS GOD.

If you're going to list John 6:29 I then ask you to please explain to everyone here what the word BELIEVE means.
Thanks.

 

[FranC]

Read the whole post and see that it lacks mention of how the Holy spirit leads, the importance of love and how the new Covenant is founded on MORE than keeping of the ten commandments.

It looks like he believes that God just repackaged the old covenant and have it again instead of showing a true understanding of the New Covenant.

Each new covenant does not negate the previous one.

Also, you're asking for a COMPLETE theological thesis.
Are you doubting he believes in the Holy Spirit?

You have the same reaction as to my ant analogy.
A post cannot be complete in every little detail.
I don't see Dcon making complete posts.
I don't see anyone complaining to him.

LoveGodForever did a great job!

 

[Ariel82]

You and others here love the idea of being sealed.

Too bad it's only one or two verses as opposed to the hundreds against this idea.

And you know VERY WELL that you cannot take two verses and make a DOCTRINE out of them.
I'm sure this is one of the very first things you learned in theology class.

You'll be sealed in the Holy Spirit for as long as you WANT to be.

If you don't WANT TO BE anymore, God will LET YOU OUT OF THAT SEALED ENVELOPE.
He will not FORCE YOU to stay in there.

Did you lose your FREE WILL when you became saved?
Is God going to save you even if you don't WANT to be saved?

Think about it.

You didn't "lose free will". You subjected to God's will and admitted that "free will" is just rebellion when it does but gave the Holy spirit wisdom to guide it's choices.

Why such opposition to the concept of being sealed by the Holy spirit? Where in the Bible does it say you get unsealed? Where does it say the Holy spirit abandons you?

Yes you will say that people choice to abandon the Holy spirit.

However I would say this is only done by immature Christians who have been deceived by Satan's lies. Some aren't even true believers because they believed in a false gospel or false Jesus to begin with and never had the Holy spirit. Some believe they are Christians but are not born again children of God at all.

The immature Christians God teaches and draws back to Him via the Holy spirit. The fake Christians need to hear the true Gospel and actually believe in the true Gospel and the true Jesus and not a demonic counterfeit.

The holy spirit seal means that you have Jesus teaching and leading you towards God and away from sin. It means you have freely given up your will to learn God's will for your life. It means that you have rejected the world and it's temptations for the better promise of eternal life with God and the world to come.

The Holy spirit teaches many spiritual truths. Walking with The holy spirit produces good fruit. Following where the Holy spirit leads reveals good works that God empowers and motivates you to do for HIS GLORY...not to keep or maintain salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

Originally Posted by stonesoffire

What I've seen in Frans posts, is that works keep us saved.

I have no idea what this means or how this could be. His Word promises to keep us, and we are kept by His power.




--------------------------------

I think faith keep us save, and faith produce good work

the problem we not in agreement is whether we can lose our faith in Jesus

it is dificult question. Both side have verse for back It up