Not By Works

[followjesus]

Yes. The Spirit of Christ.
Know what?
We should have a thread on the Kingdom of God.
Maybe the problem is that this is not understood?

Lol i tried that a long time ago and was told about the " true gospel of the grace of Christ" that doesnt allow for the Gospel of thr Kingdom of God. some actually believe there are 2 different Gospels, One spoken By Jesus, and another thats pauls gospel the grace where nothing applies but those 5 letters. turned in to a massive argument.

 

[FranC]

Obeying Jesus is NOT WORKS.
Fruit is not by our efforts but God's work in us.
.Our works are outward expression of God's love to the world.

They don't keep us save. Jesus keeps us save.

Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Fyi...I asked what the Holy spirit tells you...how is that questioning if you are born again? People who aren't born again,don't have the Holy spirit and even those who do don't always listen to Him.

Well, whatever you want to call it... we need to DO what Jesus told us to do.
You say works are an outward expression.
Fine. You could understand it as you want to. It's not easy talking about spiritual things.

But, tell me this:::

Is it necessary to have these outward signs or not?

 

[Ariel82]

lol of course i seem befuttled to you because we disagree

I look at doing good a a blessing and an honor to have been made able to do that. you seem to be saying that actions arent required. I embrace obedience to Jesus Christ and His Word of truth I see no reason to make it a work. what i was saying there is this

james 2:14-22 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?

can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


in other words we can say faith all day Long, true Faith will make us to do the Works taught By God. i dont consider anything " works" If God teaches us to do it in the Gospel, but the subject Here and the biblical language used is " works" i think better the term deeds, what we actually do because we actually have Living faith is How I would put it, what we do when We Have faith matters immensly. no actions means faith is reprobate and useless and cant save, true Faith will always spur action. repentance is an action we do because of Faith, a good deed is done because of Faith. we dont pit faith against the deeds taught in scriopture to actually do or pit faith against obedience.

you have to argue my language because you see as well whats there. to say i have faith or to say Jesus is Lord.......is one thing, to Live as if Jesus is Lord and Live by that Living and working Faith by following the spirit is entirely another.


do works save? nope. do we Have faith if we refuse the Works? nope. thers no way to seperate the 2. faith either makes us to do, or its no different from a devil saying " JESUS Son of God what do you want with us have you come to judge us before the appointed time?"

they understand Jesus is Lord, but they work opposite in disobedience. that Kind of faith is Like saying yeah Jesus came and died, and even rose BUT i dont need to believe His words or obey Him i just call Him Lord and thats all thats there. that will not save but serving Him as if He is Lord will.

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"you seem to be saying that actions arent required. "

Finish this statement..,,

Actions aren't required to BECOME A CHILD OF GOD, ONLY FAITH IN JESUS IS. Works do not keep someone saved.

Works are done to glorify God because we are loved...

NOT BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO EARN GOD'S LOVE or keep our salvation.

People look at the outward actions.

GOD LOOKS AT THE INNER MOTIVE AND HEART.

 

[Ariel82]

Well, whatever you want to call it... we need to DO what Jesus told us to do.
You say works are an outward expression.
Fine. You could understand it as you want to. It's not easy talking about spiritual things.

But, tell me this:::

Is it necessary to have these outward signs or not?

God sees your heart, if you pray and love and have no "outward signs". God will see the inner good works as acceptable sacrifice.

However I believe the Bible verse that says....to know good and not do it (if God has blessed you with the physical means to do good) is a sin. God will chasten all His kids of their sins and teach us how to live godly lives.

 

[FranC]

What you don't get is the Holy spirit walks with each person individually and helps them grow and become the personHood created them to be.

Does the mouth have the same function as the hand?

As our cells are growing the DNA in each cell is the same but the expression of the gene is different.

In the same why how God works in each believers life is different and how He shapes us is different.

Another analogy is good and diet. Some can eat meat. Some people actually would die if they ate too much animal protein. Some people are allergic to peanuts.


In the same way, some spiritual practices God commands certain people to do at certain times in their lives.

Therefore God's will is more than written words in the Bible and unique to each person for each day they walk this earth.
.the Holy spirit individually leads and guides each person.

The fruit of walking with the Spirit is the same BUT THAT IS NOT A WORK OF MAN BUT GOD'S WORK IN US.

Ariel,
I really don't understand what you mean.

Is it OK for me to curse now? Maybe at some time in the future God will tell me to stop?

It's OK to steal that ring I like? I'm not fully mature in God after all.

What do you mean?

When we let God down, we let Him down.
He ins't NOT let down because we're immature.

How could we be immature if we KNOW what God wants?
Are you saying we cannot know what He wants?

And yet we here are reading the bible all the time...

Isn't it more honest to say that we either do not want to do or are unable to do what He wants?
Instead of calling us children and immature?

We know very well what God wants of us.
Whether we do it or not is up to us.

Call it works, deeds, fruit, it's all the same.
No difference.

You might be thinking of Galatians 5:22.
This is what we reap when we have the Holy Spirit.
But this is up to us too.
I see some that say they have the Holy Spirit, but they don't have the fruit...

 

[FranC]

"you seem to be saying that actions arent required. "

Finish this statement..,,

Actions aren't required to BECOME A CHILD OF GOD, ONLY FAITH IN JESUS IS. Works do not keep someone saved.

Works are done to glorify God because we are loved...

NOT BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO EARN GOD'S LOVE or keep our salvation.

People look at the outward actions.

GOD LOOKS AT THE INNER MOTIVE AND HEART.

In my heart I know you're sick and want to bring you some chicken soup.

But in my actions I never do...

you must know the parable of the Two sons..
Which one did the will of the Father???

 

[Ariel82]

Works, fruit and deeds are not the same Fran and the fact you don't bother to listen to the distinctions makes me question if its worth putting the time to find the words to explain what I am trying to convey to you.

 

[followjesus]

Different scriptures...doesn't change the point that some do good works, even miracles and cast out demons IN JESUS NAME but are cast out and called workers of iniquity.

Do YOU KNOW WHY?

Again God's children will display love and do good works because that is WHO THEY ARE. It does NOT KEEP THEM SAVED. It is done BECAUSE WE ARE GOD'S CHILDREN AND HE HAS SAVED US.

so then those who do not do the deeds they arent saved ...right? thats what you are saying . if its who they are lol then they will do those things. so really you are saying they will do the Works and if they dont what happens? arent they thrown into eternal Punishment instead?

it seems like another circle a i go in with bruce so often so ill let it go, hinestly this debate goes nowhere ever. because faith isnt faith without works. either we live by faith, or we say i have faith but my deeds Have no part. ill Leave this last scripture regarding faith

Hebrews 11:7-8 " By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. ( noah obeyed God by Faith and was the heir of righteousness by Faith)
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Both cases Here they were saved by Faith, and both cases the acted because they Had Faith in what God said, had noah not believed what God said and did what He was told, He would not have had an ark to go into when the flood came. and Had abram Not Believed what God had said, and obeyed God when He told Him to go without Knowing where......abraham would not Have made it to His inheritance either.

if you have faith in Jesus, Believe what Jesus has said to do and that is what will lead to what He has promised. faith is A word if it has no action that comes from it. if i had no faith in God i wouldnt obey Him because I believe what He says and Where He says that will lead. thats How faith saves, because it will always lead to the action

 

[FranC]

God sees your heart, if you pray and love and have no "outward signs". God will see the inner good works as acceptable sacrifice.

However I believe the Bible verse that says....to know good and not do it (if God has blessed you with the physical means to do good) is a sin. God will chasten all His kids of their sins and teach us how to live godly lives.

I would tend to believe the bible verse.

How could you not have ANY OUTWARD signs?
What do you think works are anyway??
Can't people tell that you're Christian?

 

[dcontroversal]

No. It's WHO.

You're getting mixed up with non-saved people again. Think about this.

And WHAT the WHO said is to be DONE.

Believe on him whom was sent......simple faith that saves eternally........!!!!!

 

[Ariel82]

◄ James 4:17 ►
New International Version
If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

New Living Translation
Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it.

English Standard Version
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Berean Study Bible
Therefore, whoever knows the right thing to do, yet fails to do it, is guilty of sin.

Berean Literal Bible
Therefore to the one knowing to do good, and not doing, it is sin.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

King James Bible
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[Ariel82]

I would tend to believe the bible verse.

How could you not have ANY OUTWARD signs?
What do you think works are anyway??
Can't people tell that you're Christian?

You have fruit of the Spirit as an outward sign which is a work of God in you,

Outward works are blessing God allows us to do according to His plan for this world.

 

[followjesus]

"you seem to be saying that actions arent required. "

Finish this statement..,,

Actions aren't required to BECOME A CHILD OF GOD, ONLY FAITH IN JESUS IS. Works do not keep someone saved.

Works are done to glorify God because we are loved...

NOT BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO EARN GOD'S LOVE or keep our salvation.

People look at the outward actions.

GOD LOOKS AT THE INNER MOTIVE AND HEART.

My statement is that Faith is not an inward belief alone, faith is WHY WE OBEY GOD. because we beluieve Gods Word. if you believe Gods Word there is no way to get around His commandments its not possible to make our own salvation up, we have to do it Gods way. faith so therefore i act accordingly to that faith.


you are acting as if theres no Holy spirit to make us able to do those things gladly, with no power to actually change us into those who willingly embrace the good deeds God tells us plainly to do. as if nothing is rewuired but to believe the cross. the truth is faith is seen in the action and thats what saves that Kind of Faith that Hears, and because it believes it does the action. Like all the examples we have of faith in the Bible. you will never find an axample of a person arguing against doing what God has commanded we are to do. no one who says i believe and then takes the action to be an offense or not necassary.


anyways ariel its okay if we disagree I hope the remainder of your day is blessed and you have a peaceful Heart God Loves you, that i know is agreeable

 

[Desertsrose]

God sees your heart, if you pray and love and have no "outward signs". God will see the inner good works as acceptable sacrifice.However I believe the Bible verse that says....to know good and not do it (if God has blessed you with the physical means to do good) is a sin. God will chasten all His kids of their sins and teach us how to live godly lives.

Hi Ariel,

What you're proposing seems to be an impossibility.

If God is the One working in our lives to be obedient children, producing fruits of repentance, there has to be an outward manifestation of God at work in us; our obedience to Him.

If a person is a new creation in Christ, the old has gone and the new has come, there will be outward signs. It's impossible not to when God is at work in the believer and through His work, we obey.

 

[Ariel82]

so then those who do not do the deeds they arent saved ...right? thats what you are saying . if its who they are lol then they will do those things. so really you are saying they will do the Works and if they dont what happens? arent they thrown into eternal Punishment instead?

Wrong..God chastens...he doesn't cast his kids in hell for not doing one task anymore than you would toss your kids out of the house for not cleaning their room.

God teaches us and shows us the wisdom in following and obeying Him.

 

[Ariel82]

Hi Ariel,

What you're proposing seems to be an impossibility.

If God is the One working in our lives to be obedient children, producing fruits of repentance, there has to be an outward manifestation of God at work in us; our obedience to Him.

If a person is a new creation in Christ, the old has gone and the new has come, there will be outward signs. It's impossible not to when God is at work in the believer and through His work, we obey.

I don't count fruit of the Spirit as a work we do but a work of God done within our hearts and minds.

 

[dcontroversal]

Works, fruit and deeds are not the same Fran and the fact you don't bother to listen to the distinctions makes me question if its worth putting the time to find the words to explain what I am trying to convey to you.

The fact that she is never wrong speaks volumes.....

 

[RedeemedGift]

I don't count fruit of the Spirit as a work we do but a work of God done within our hearts and minds.

If the fruits of the Spirit were simply our own doing, wouldn't the glory belong to us and not to God? Hence they're called "fruits of the Spirit". Not arguing with you, just backing up your statement.

 

[Cee]

We do good works by abiding in Christ. Apart from Him we can do nothing. How do we abide in Him? We first call upon Him as Lord. And next we follow His commandment: Love one another as He Himself has loved us.

What about the law? Great question.

Paul answers it here:

Gal 5:1 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

 

[Cee]

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Notice Paul first stresses identity. We are His workmanship, created (reborn) in Christ for good works.

And what about good works? God ALREADY prepared them for us so that we get to walk in them.

Notice the focus is on God, God, and more God.

He designed us. He created us. He prepared the works for us. So we get to reveal Him.