Not By Works

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Ariel82

Guest
Works are not necessary to obtain or keep salvation.

Glorifying God is necessary and one of The ways we do that is by doing good works. Another way to glorify God is by displaying the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace,long suffering, gentleness, goodness,faithfulness and self control). Another way is by worshipping Him and giving Him thanks.

Good works are NOT NECESSARY to be saved or to stay saved; However, glorifying God and walking with the Holy spirit is. When God has healed us and taught us His truths, He will entrust us with good works to do with a heart filled with love for others and not fear of losing His love.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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We were discussing:

James 2:19
Even demons believe in Christ and SHUDDER.
They shudder because they believe that Christ is God.
They know He is. But they sit back and do nothing.
(it's too late for them)

Belief, faith, and works go hand in hand.
They cannot be divided.

WE are not to sit back and do nothing as the demons do.
We, unlike them, are to believe and do.
It's not too late for us.

John 3:16

Whoever Believes...
The N.T. "believes"
We believe Jesus is God...

Let us do as He commanded and NOT BE AFRAID TO SAY SO.
devil believe that Jesus is God, but Devil not invite Jesus into his heart to be his King

we believe Jesus is God and invite Jesus to be a King, Paul Said Jesus own him, he No longer the owner of himself, Jesus own him, now up to Jesus.

Paul said that he No longer entitle to manage his own life. The buyer is.

this is the different believe between Paul and Lucifer.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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you and 7seas need to step back from EG's post...you might get wet from the puddle he is stomping in...
Brother, did I read a while back that you were a Pastor?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Gods people will need to bare all theese fruits for them selves..

you on the other hand think if the child of God does not automaticaly do this after being saved they where never saved in the first place..

and you know thats the truth but you choose to ignor me on that et
He doesn't believe that. If anything he is against that teaching and those who you call "workers for" would label those who doesn't yet bear fruit as not yet saved or even forever lost and condemn them to hell.

Not all but a couple who truly teach works salvation have stated its Necessary and without fruit then they aren't saved..,,why don't you question them?

However I will admit most on this thread understand and agree a immature Christian who does not yet have fruit is still saved and beloved of God.

I say most because you always have one or two who will disagree no matter what you say.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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He doesn't believe that. If anything he is against that teaching and those who you call "workers for" would label those who doesn't yet bear fruit as not yet saved or even forever lost and condemn them to hell.

Not all but a couple who truly teach works salvation have stated its Necessary and without fruit then they aren't saved..,,why don't you question them?

However I will admit most on this thread understand and agree a immature Christian who does not yet have fruit is still saved and beloved of God.

I say most because you always have one or two who will disagree no matter what you say.
no i dont think so aerial anyone who is born of the first fruits are saved ,,,,,,,,,,, period,,,,,,,,,,, you have been connected to the vine ..............period........................... you are saved..............................period...........................................
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,032
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Meggido and EG...I type this with love from my heart to both of you who are my brothers in Christ...I have to say with all honesty that your post are becoming very personal between each other and uncomfortable to see...I am sure if you both truly put each other on ignore and take time out from each other you will both benefit...I also see that on each of your posts, someone will like what one is saying to the other although the post from both of you sometimes is very ungodly and the likes from people seem to be from those that like to stir the pot, not the likes on your bible discussions but on the post where you are both clearly getting lost in your fleshly words... Please except my post with love to you both, take time out, defuse and give each other a week and come back and see how you both feel, if time out does not change things between you both, that ignore each other for longer, this is sent with sisterly love to my brothers in Christ...God bless you both, i pray that this will be sorted...xox...:)

Yes!!!!

The last couple of months I have really felt the Lord telling me to quit reading and watching so much News. I understand why. My blood pressure goes up, I get anger in my heart, and I become a less effective minister of God to spread the Gospel.

That is now happening here at CC generally and this thread in particular. YES I KNOW I CAN JUST WHISTLE PAST THE GRAVEYARD!

I can feel anger, and disgust, and sorrow building as I type.

There will be page after page of venom, verbal attacks, "gotcha" posts and dare I say..hatred posts. Pride, haughtiness, self-righteousness abounds! "Yeah, but did you see what HE? SHE SAID"?

Then, a brother or sister will come in and try and spread love and Grace and beg those that have accepted Christ to STOP tearing each other up. I simply don't understand how someone can justify belittling and verbally assaulting someone, ESPECIALLY ANOTHER BELIEVER, in their mind.

Then there are those that don't make 50 posts a day of this type of stuff, but worse, when the dust starts to settle, they come in and toss their grenades with incendiary intent to start it up all over again.

THIS CANNOT BE OF THE LORD!

What is it about 1 Corinthians 13 that brothers and sisters in the Lord can't understand!!!!

It DOESN'T matter if YOU are right if you are not displaying the love of Christ! That's it! Don't justify any wretched behavior except by that barometer.

OK. Gotta take my BP meds now.
PLEASE dear family, STOP! LOVE one another. Build one another up in that love. If you don't see eye to eye on an issue, just post YOUR thoughts in a loving manner and move on.

PEACE, LOVE, and GRACE to you all! In JESUS Name!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The passage doesn't say they 'didn't really believe'. OSAS has taught the church to instantly interpret soil #2 as the person who never 'really' believed. I just go with what Jesus said: "they believe for a while" (Luke 8:13 NASB). Soil #2 believed for a while. That's what it says.
I'm not saying they did not believe anything at all, yet not ALL belief is the same.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons "believe" (pisteuo) that "there is one God" but they do not "believe" (pisteuo) on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31). The word "believe" (pisteuo) can describe saving belief in Christ or a belief which falls short of consummated saving belief in Christ which results in salvation.

In Acts 8:13, we read that Simon "believed," but the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his faith, "the miracles and signs which were done". Later, Simon gives himself away when he offers to buy the Holy Spirit with money (vs. 18-19), and in verses 20-23, Peter denounces Simon, showing that Simon's "belief" was NOT genuine saving belief:

Acts 8:20 - But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 8:21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.


Simon may have believed certain things about Jesus to be true, but the object of his faith was in power to do miracles, rather than in Christ's finished work of redemption. By becoming a so-called follower of Jesus, Simon hoped to obtain the same ability to perform wonders.

He did include that scenario. That's soil #3...

"22“And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. " (Matthew 13:22 NASB)
In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. TNT

The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Rieu

A.T. Robertson comments - Who has not seen the promise of fair flower and fruit choked into yellow withered stalk without fruit "as they go on their way" (poreuomenoi). Bring no fruit to perfection (outelesporousin). In contrast, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." If the seed that fell on the thorny ground produced fruit, where is it? Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.

Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground produced fruit. Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English). The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.

It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.

Correct. There is no mention of choking or withering in soil #4. It's good soil, that's why it's that way. If soil #4 doesn't keep his 'garden' weeded, his soil will become as soil #3 in which those weeds "choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful." (Matthew 13:22 NASB).
Like I said, there is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers and there are also no warnings about keeping the garden weeded for the 4th soil. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Because I believe EVERYONE who has faith (believes) in jesus as their lord and savior WILL follow his commands (although I do not believe anyone will be perfect. and some will obey a lot more than others)


I agree.
Who's perfect?
Only our Father in Heaven is perfect.
Jesus said Be Perfect, (Mathew) He meant to show the
attributes of the Father. To do our best. To aspire to be perfect.
Jesus knew we could never be perfect when He clearly stated that only
the Father in heaven is perfect.

This is why we need to put all scripture together and not pick at verses.



Some obeying more than Others...





Is works obeying?
What ARE WORKS?
If you feel God is specifically telling you to do or not to do something, that would be more a sin to me than a "work".
Sins of commission, sins of omission.

A work is something:

1. Specific that God tells you to do. Maybe teaching Sunday School? It could be anything.
Maybe NOT going to your job anymore because it's having a bad effect on you...

2. It's something you do every day. Everything you do after being saved is a WORK. We do everything we do for the glory it
gives God. If your neighbor knows you're Christian, and sees you going to Sunday worship, this is a "work" that is giving glory to God. But to you it's not a work, it's something you want to do.

I'm happy to hear that you also agree that once someone has faith, works will follow.
It's an outward sign of an inward change.

It does seem to me that the word "work" is a scary word.
"Works Salvation" seems to be the problem.

I've explained this many times.
WE WHO ARE SAVED AND HAVE BELIEF AND FAITH IN GOD,
should NOT be afraid of the words "works salvation". It's unfortunate that it has come to mean something so negative
since we ALL AGREE that we DO WORKS.


WHo is afraid? No one is afraid. The only person that says anyone is afraid is you.

Gods people WILL WORK

Gods people WILL OBEY

Gods people WILL grow

Gods people WILL not live like they used to

Gods people WILL be changed, Because God made them new creatures.

are you afraid of the word will?? Why?


Again, Saying it is REQUIRED is teaching works..

I believe faith works,, why do you not agree? why do you think a person can have faith and not work?
I agree!
I don't understand about "teaching works".
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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translated to mean...I do not know how to refute Biblical truth and keep my remarks intact....

There can not be any salvation without grace and the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sin....the forgiveness of sin was ratified at the mercy seat in heaven, when Jesus placed his own blood there....then he went to paradise and led captivity captive and set them free...

so one more time, how were these OT saints saved without grace and without the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sin?
This is a difficult one to grasp (for me), but the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. It's such a mystery to me but even before He was slain in time, He could be believed on and one could have faith in Him coming.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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If faith is firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start, then why wouldn't it continue? How do believers force themselves to continue to believe? I can see where shallow, temporary belief that has no root (which does not represent saving faith in Christ) would fail to continue.

I could not imagine waking up one day and saying I no longer believe and hereby withdraw my faith in Christ for salvation. Faith in Christ is too engrained in me and I'm too convinced to simply stop believing.
There are reasons why it wouldn't continue. One is that the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of money choke out the seed implanted. Oh who am I trying to kid - that HAS been my biggest struggle, to the point where there IS no other struggle worthy of mention where I am concerned.
 
P

PHart

Guest
Not all but a couple who truly teach works salvation have stated its Necessary...
If any of these people are in this forum please give the names of these people so I can engage them in discussion about how "God credits righteousness apart from works." (Romans 4:6 NIV).
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,723
4,084
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Yes!!!!

The last couple of months I have really felt the Lord telling me to quit reading and watching so much News. I understand why. My blood pressure goes up, I get anger in my heart, and I become a less effective minister of God to spread the Gospel.

That is now happening here at CC generally and this thread in particular. YES I KNOW I CAN JUST WHISTLE PAST THE GRAVEYARD!

I can feel anger, and disgust, and sorrow building as I type.

There will be page after page of venom, verbal attacks, "gotcha" posts and dare I say..hatred posts. Pride, haughtiness, self-righteousness abounds! "Yeah, but did you see what HE? SHE SAID"?

Then, a brother or sister will come in and try and spread love and Grace and beg those that have accepted Christ to STOP tearing each other up. I simply don't understand how someone can justify belittling and verbally assaulting someone, ESPECIALLY ANOTHER BELIEVER, in their mind.

Then there are those that don't make 50 posts a day of this type of stuff, but worse, when the dust starts to settle, they come in and toss their grenades with incendiary intent to start it up all over again.

THIS CANNOT BE OF THE LORD!

What is it about 1 Corinthians 13 that brothers and sisters in the Lord can't understand!!!!

It DOESN'T matter if YOU are right if you are not displaying the love of Christ! That's it! Don't justify any wretched behavior except by that barometer.

OK. Gotta take my BP meds now.
PLEASE dear family, STOP! LOVE one another. Build one another up in that love. If you don't see eye to eye on an issue, just post YOUR thoughts in a loving manner and move on.

PEACE, LOVE, and GRACE to you all! In JESUS Name!
Truth you have typed brother...I believe the fruit of the Spirit we have in our Lord and Savoir is SELF CONTROL, would be wonderful to see this fruit to be shown, we all have it...xox...
 
P

PHart

Guest
I'm not saying they did not believe anything at all, yet not ALL belief is the same.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons "believe" (pisteuo) that "there is one God" but they do not "believe" (pisteuo) on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved (Acts 16:31). The word "believe" (pisteuo) can describe saving belief in Christ or a belief which falls short of consummated saving belief in Christ which results in salvation.

In Acts 8:13, we read that Simon "believed," but the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his faith, "the miracles and signs which were done". Later, Simon gives himself away when he offers to buy the Holy Spirit with money (vs. 18-19), and in verses 20-23, Peter denounces Simon, showing that Simon's "belief" was NOT genuine saving belief:

Acts 8:20 - But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 8:21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.


Simon may have believed certain things about Jesus to be true, but the object of his faith was in power to do miracles, rather than in Christ's finished work of redemption. By becoming a so-called follower of Jesus, Simon hoped to obtain the same ability to perform wonders.

In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. TNT

The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Rieu

A.T. Robertson comments - Who has not seen the promise of fair flower and fruit choked into yellow withered stalk without fruit "as they go on their way" (poreuomenoi). Bring no fruit to perfection (outelesporousin). In contrast, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." If the seed that fell on the thorny ground produced fruit, where is it? Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.

Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground produced fruit. Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English). The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.

It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.

Like I said, there is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers and there are also no warnings about keeping the garden weeded for the 4th soil. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
There's a lot to read and respond to here for a working man, lol.

I'm not saying that ALL believing is sincere. Surely, some believing is fake. What I resist is the Calvinistic indoctrination that teaches us that ALL faith that fails was never real saving faith to begin with. The parable of the sower does not teach that. A person gets that out of the parable by deciding ahead of time that since the faith failed in soils #2 and #3 that they didn't really believe to begin with. The text doesn't tell us that--Calvinism does.
 

AllenW

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2016
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There's a lot to read and respond to here for a working man, lol.

I'm not saying that ALL believing is sincere. Surely, some believing is fake. What I resist is the Calvinistic indoctrination that teaches us that ALL faith that fails was never real saving faith to begin with. The parable of the sower does not teach that. A person gets that out of the parable by deciding ahead of time that since the faith failed in soils #2 and #3 that they didn't really believe to begin with. The text doesn't tell us that--Calvinism does.
Saving faith will save you, it's quite simple.
If you walk away from your belief in Jesus and give it all up forever, then it is not saving faith.
There's nothing in the Bible that says saving faith can come and go.
You and others pick out verses and make it say that because that's what you choose to believe.
 
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PHart

Guest
There are reasons why it wouldn't continue. One is that the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of money choke out the seed implanted. Oh who am I trying to kid - that HAS been my biggest struggle, to the point where there IS no other struggle worthy of mention where I am concerned.
And I think this may be the struggle of most Christians. Been there done that. But I have not stopped trusting in Christ despite my struggle with the cares of this world. A fierce opponent of mine in another forum points out it's not actually a parable about salvation, but about fruit bearing, and on that point (at least, lol) we agreed.

For all that's wrong with H-grace at least that doctrine recognizes the fact that there's no reason to conclude that 'believe for a while' doesn't mean real saving faith, and that a real believer can indeed stop believing. It's just that H-grace then makes the HUGE mistake of concluding that since '"salvation is soooooooooo not of works" (which, surely, it isn't) that even unbelief can not cause you to lose salvation, oblivious to the fact that believing never was, and never will be, among the works of the damnable works gospel. Believing is indeed required for salvation. It's not one of the works that Paul said can't justify. In fact, he said it's the ONLY thing that can justify a person before God. But many in the church have tossed faith itself out as a damnable work if you say you have to 'do' that to the very end to be saved.
 
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PHart

Guest
Saving faith will save you, it's quite simple.
If you walk away from your belief in Jesus and give it all up forever, then it is not saving faith.
There's nothing in the Bible that says saving faith can come and go.
You and others pick out verses and make it say that because that's what you choose to believe.
Hebrews 10:26-31 is very clear about what happens to the sanctified person who tramples on the blood of Christ. So you must be one who believes that the warnings are sufficient to keep the believer believing to the very end as required in order to be saved.

I can't argue with that fundamental belief, except that there are examples of people who have trampled on the blood of Christ who had the signs of having been sanctified by the blood of Christ.
 
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PHart

Guest
There's nothing in the Bible that says saving faith can come and go.
Oh, and you are right. The Bible is clear that you only get once chance to have and keep saving faith. And when it's gone, it's gone forever and you can't get it back. So, 'yoyo' salvation is not supported in the Bible at all. I agree on that for sure because that's what the Bible says.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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One can believe (mentally agree) and not have faith (an assurance or trust) , do you agree?
Hmm...I would say...one can SAY they have faith/believe, but not be being truthful because they SHOW themselves to be lying.
This has happened to me a lot. And then I say, but I DO believe, please help my unbelief!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Mankind is all "sanctified/set apart" for the gospel as far as God is concerned. It's up to us to believe it to receive the gospel of the grace of Christ.

Hebrews 10:29 is stating this fact that all man-kind has been set apart or sanctified for the gospel of Christ. Reject Christ sacrifice and there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

Remember the word "sanctified" means to be set apart for use - not sinning.


Here Paul is taking about being the husband who is an unbeliever as being sanctified because of the wife.

1 Corinthians 7:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.