The Rapture

[Locutus]

I was thinking on what Peter said in his 1st letter:

Note he's writing to the diaspora which are the 10 scattered tribes not just Jews among the Gentiles:

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Pet 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Peter is saying that the prophets wrote of "the things" which were happening in his time and was applicable to his readers (the scattered 10 tribes) of the salvation that was coming to them.

Looking at Jeremiah 31:1:

Jer 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Matt 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Looking at what Matt says about the fulfillment of Jer 31:15 we have to conclude that Jer 31:1 "I will be the God of all the families of Israel was also being fulfilled in those days.

This is a devastating blow to ALL futurist "theologies" claiming another "restoration" or the "restoration" hundreds of years after this was stated to be the fulfilled in the 1st century AD.

Locutuses believe it or not....

 

[J7]

Exactly. This is critical actually. Romans makes no sense without a proper understanding of this mystery.

I was thinking on what Peter said in his 1st letter:

Note he's writing to the diaspora which are the 10 scattered tribes not just Jews among the Gentiles:

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Pet 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Peter is saying that the prophets wrote of "the things" which were happening in his time and was applicable to his readers (the scattered 10 tribes) of the salvation that was coming to them.

Looking at Jeremiah 31:1:

Jer 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Matt 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Looking at what Matt says about the fulfillment of Jer 31:15 we have to conclude that Jer 31:1 "I will be the God of all the families of Israel was also being fulfilled in those days.

This is a devastating blow to ALL futurist "theologies" claiming another "restoration" or the "restoration" hundreds of years after this was stated to be the fulfilled in the 1st century AD.

Locutuses believe it or not....

 

[J7]

1 Peter 2

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This is a direct reference to Hosea. The House of Israel were called Lo-ammi, not my people.

6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

 

[Locutus]

1 Peter 2

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This is a direct reference to Hosea. The House of Israel were called Lo-ammi, not my people.

6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

Exactly - I've posted about this somewhere in the threads.

 

[heartofdavid]

Exactly. This is critical actually. Romans makes no sense without a proper understanding of this mystery.

The devistating blow goes to you and your comrades that make up excuses for the mark,buying and selling prohibited,the flying scorpions,and Israel becoming a nation.

You or the others cannot come to terms with obvious,vivid holes in your mess.

You are parked in a make believe concept.

Basically INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE.

 

[Locutus]

Exactly - I've posted about this somewhere in the threads.

I found it:

Peter is addressing the Ten Tribes in his letter:


1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (Greek – diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Diaspora is generally admitted to be a "term" for the Ten tribes - thus we can conclude that the Ten tribes are in view and being "gathered".

Peter also virtually quotes word for word the prophesy in Hosea:


1 Pet 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

Hosea 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.


And to drive home the point that it is the diaspora of Israel that is being gathered in the 1st century AD Peter previously stated:

1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.


The "short work" and "he will finish the work" all relate to the 2nd Exodus under way in the 1st century AD and "finished" in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

 

[KJV1611]

Everywhere that the main resurrection in discussed (John 5:28, 6:40, 44, 54, 11:24, Dan 12:2-3, Acts 24:15, etc).

The "last day" was the last day of the Temple. The resurrection is tied to the destruction of Israel and the punishment of the unbelieving wicked Jewish leaders of that day (John 12:48, James 5:3). "Last day" and "end of the age" are the same thing.

This is where our difference comes in. You believe everything is centered around the temple and the destruction of Jerusalem, I believe everything centers around Jesus and the establishment of heavenly Jerusalem.

I see it as the kingdom came at the resurrection, you see it as AD 70. I see the resurrection of the old testament saints at the resurrection, you see it in AD 70. And this is what I'm asking you about, where do you see AD 70 as the resurrection in the bible? Show biblical evidence that AD 70 is the "last day".

 

[KJV1611]

I'm not throwing them out. I'm trying to explain that the "dry bones coming back to life" represents Israel coming back to life in her land following Babylonian captivity. If you don't get it, you don't get it. It's okay, its all good. We aren't going to agree on everything and we don't.

I agree we aren't going to agree on everything.

 

[Locutus]

I'm sure I saw those flying scorpions at Cirque du Soleil..................

 

[KJV1611]

Firstfruits (plural) appears 33 times in the Bible (NKJV) whereas, firstfruit (singular) appears just once (Rom 11:16). If you go back to Exo 23, 34 and Lev 2 and 23 or Num 18:12 or Deu 18 and 26 you will see that you are to give the firstfruits (plural of your labor, your crops, grain, wine, etc) to the Lord as an offering or tithe. The idea of firstfruits is to give the first of your blessings back to the Lord.

Christ being the firstfruits of those who sleep means He was the first to be resurrected. Remember, "sleep" is a term used for the soul waiting in Hades (Sheol in the OT).

Yes but the term isn't "sleep" in the real bible
The term is SLEPT - past tense, they were asleep and rose with Christ.

 

[KJV1611]

I was thinking on what Peter said in his 1st letter:

Note he's writing to the diaspora which are the 10 scattered tribes not just Jews among the Gentiles:

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Pet 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Peter is saying that the prophets wrote of "the things" which were happening in his time and was applicable to his readers (the scattered 10 tribes) of the salvation that was coming to them.

Looking at Jeremiah 31:1:

Jer 31:1 At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Matt 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Looking at what Matt says about the fulfillment of Jer 31:15 we have to conclude that Jer 31:1 "I will be the God of all the families of Israel was also being fulfilled in those days.

This is a devastating blow to ALL futurist "theologies" claiming another "restoration" or the "restoration" hundreds of years after this was stated to be the fulfilled in the 1st century AD.

Locutuses believe it or not....

It should be a death blow to all futurists.... but I guarentee you it won't be lol.

 

[PlainWord]

This is where our difference comes in. You believe everything is centered around the temple and the destruction of Jerusalem, I believe everything centers around Jesus and the establishment of heavenly Jerusalem.

I see it as the kingdom came at the resurrection, you see it as AD 70. I see the resurrection of the old testament saints at the resurrection, you see it in AD 70. And this is what I'm asking you about, where do you see AD 70 as the resurrection in the bible? Show biblical evidence that AD 70 is the "last day".

Now we are getting to the crux of the issue. I'd characterize my position a little differently. I don't think everything centered around the temple and destruction alone as I see that also as the second coming (parousia) of Christ. I see the second coming AND the end of Israel (for 1878 years) as the end of the age. It is when Christ brought judgment to the wicked and rewards to the righteous. It's when He unlocked the souls in Hades which were His. It's when He "restored all things" that had been lost in the Garden. It is when believers could now go straight to heaven without first "sleeping" in Hades. It is when the Law ended permanently. Christ's parousia return was a really big deal. The temple and Jerusalem were just part of it, the wrath/judgment part.

Here's my scriptural support. Take the interlinear which gives the actual translation from the Greek:

Mat 24:3: "...tell us, when these things will be; and what the sign of Your presence (parousia), and of the termination of the age?"

For the preceding two chapters, all they were talking about was the kingdom, the resurrection and the destruction of the temple and surrounding buildings. It really started at Mt 21:12 when Christ rode in on a donkey and immediately upset the money changers. He then withered the fig tree (because it would not bear fruit, just like JtB said of the Pharisees in Mt 3). He then has it out with the religious leaders all through Mt 22-23. Then at the end of Mt 23, He laments over Jerusalem, the city once called Salem where He was High Priest.

Anyway, starting with Moses and the Law through 70 AD, the the prophets foretold Israel's destruction. This is why throughout the NT the days they were in were called, "the last days." Peter's speech in Acts 2-3 is a huge part of the evidence for 70 AD. Look at Acts 2:17:

And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

This was happening to them right then and there, these ancient words from Joel. Notice they were in the last days, not last day? The resurrection happens on "the last day" according to John 6:40, 44 and 54 and 11:24. Notice that Christ had already been resurrected and ascended before this? Peter then gives the same signs that Christ gives in Mt 24, meaning they hadn't happened yet.

I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath...The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

They happened circa 70 AD. Peter then quotes David, and this clinched it for me:

For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. [SUP]28 [/SUP]You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence (parousia).’ [SUP]29 [/SUP]“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

David was still in the ground at this moment in time, awaiting the parousia. David didn't arise with Christ in 30 AD. If he had, Peter would not have said this. Then Peter instructs us (although VCO and HoD cannot understand) that Christ's body was not allowed to see corruption when all other flesh does:

...foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. [SUP]32 [/SUP]This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Can you imagine??? They were living this fantastic promise of old. Now if this doesn't convince you, nothing will. Please read on:

[SUP]34 [/SUP]“For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:‘The Lord said to my Lord,

“Sit at My right hand, [SUP]35 [/SUP]Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

David did not go to heaven yet. He needed to wait until the Lord's enemies (the wicked Jewish religious leaders, we made His footstool). Then He could return. Then when we get to Acts 3:19-26 goes on to discuss the prophet, Jesus son of Ananus who for 7 years prior began warning of the pending destruction of Jerusalem when the city was still at peace (War 6:5:3).

There's obviously much more evidence like 2 Thes 1-2 which tie the wrath to the 70 AD event, but this is enough for now. Christ didn't bring any wrath when He rose from the grave.

 

[VCO]

A great multitude in heaven wearing robes was seen by John in Rev 7 who "came out of great tribulation" should tell you it did happen.

Revelation 7:9-11 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation {THAT INCLUDES PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE NATIONS}, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

Revelation 4:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.


Elders are those who represent the CHURCH, while the same term in Israel is not associated with the Synagogues, but rather with City Government. SAINTS are those who choose to walk in righteousness, because they LOVE Messiah, who makes their clothes WHITE, by paying for their SINS with HIS BLOOD. Therefore that includes ALL who BELIEVED GOD WOULD SEND A MESSIAH TO PAY FOR THEIR SINS, past, present, and future; AND the People who did not have that kind of faith are talked about in Heb. 10:29-30.


Ecclesiastes 9:7-8 (CSBBible)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Go, eat your bread with pleasure, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, for God has already accepted your works.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Let your clothes be white all the time {walk in righteousness all the time}, and never let oil be lacking on your head.

Psalm 132:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Let thy priest be clothed with righteousness; And let thy saints shout for joy.

Revelation 3:4-6 (CSBBible)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But you have a few people in Sardis who have not defiled their clothes, and they will walk with me in white, because they are worthy.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]

"In the same way, the one who conquers will be dressed in white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name before my Father and before his angels.

[SUP]6 [/SUP] "Let anyone who has ears to hear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.

Revelation 19:7-9 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.



ALL THE SAINTS WEAR WHITE in HEAVEN, O.T., Church-age, and Tribulation. ALL THE SAINTS COME THROUGH THE BLOOD OF MESSIAH. What you are seeing in Chapter Seven, is an Angel Pointing to a SPECIFIC GROUP and asking if John recognized that PARTICULAR Group, that JUST ARRIVED recently. The rest of us have been there since Chapter 4. John KNOWS who the Old Testament Saints with the Faith of Abraham are. And John Knows who the Church-age Saints are, after all HE helped start the CHURCH, the continuation of the ASSEMBLY that THE LORD IS BUILDING. But JOHN is uncertain who this third GROUP IS, the Tribulation Saints. HOW LONG BETWEEN CHAPTER 4 and CHAPTER 7? It does not say. But I would guess somewhere shortly past the 3.5 Year mark, because the pouring out of the WRATH of GOD begins at that end of Chapter 6.



Revelation 3:18-20 (NCV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I advise you to buy from me gold made pure in fire so you can be truly rich. Buy from me white clothes so you can be clothed and so you can cover your shameful nakedness. {the nakeness of your SIN NATURE}Buy from me medicine to put on your eyes so you can truly see.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] “I correct and punish those whom I love. So be eager to do right, and change your hearts and lives.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and eat with you, and you will eat with me.

 

[PlainWord]

The devistating blow goes to you and your comrades that make up excuses for the mark,buying and selling prohibited,the flying scorpions,and Israel becoming a nation.

You or the others cannot come to terms with obvious,vivid holes in your mess.

You are parked in a make believe concept.

Basically INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE.

Do you mean these dart throwing machines that the Romans used in their siege? They called them scorpion batteries. They tormented the Jews in the city for 5 months with these things but they didn't do any real harm. They stung like heck if they hit you but killed few people.

 

[PlainWord]

Josephus got hit by a scorpion dart. At the very end, prophet Jesus, son of Ananus was actually killed by one but he is the only one I can think of who died from a direct hit by these scorpion darts.

 

[PlainWord]

It should be a death blow to all futurists.... but I guarentee you it won't be lol.

These futurists are like terminators. You can keep hitting them and killing them but they keep on coming with their worn out talk of wedding feasts, etc. Hey, someone had an ancient Jewish wedding and 5 bridesmaids fell asleep, that proves there's a future tribulation and rapture.

 

[J7]

The devistating blow goes to you and your comrades that make up excuses for the mark,buying and selling prohibited,the flying scorpions,and Israel becoming a nation.

You or the others cannot come to terms with obvious,vivid holes in your mess.

You are parked in a make believe concept.

Basically INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE.

David Man, listen to me and I'll help you to understand. One day you will bless me for opening the eyes of your understanding

 

[Locutus]

Interesting thing with what Paul says here:

1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends (Greek - telos) of the ages have come.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strongs

G5056 telos tel'-os

from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);

properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If what Paul is saying that the goal of the ages had arrived in his lifetime then this does not bode well for the futurist "theologies" and modern day "Israel" 1900 years after Paul said the goal had arrived.

Another fatal blow..

 

[PlainWord]

David Man, listen to me and I'll help you to understand. One day you will bless me for opening the eyes of your understanding

I've been trying to show him things for 4 years, nothing works on the guy. Don't get me wrong, he's a great guy and I like him a lot. But it's like a cult within a religion for some of these guys. I tried going to a Calvary Chapel a few times but all they did was talk about the rapture. It's crazy. I couldn't take it anymore. My wife and I would look at each other and gag.

 

[PlainWord]

Interesting thing with what Paul says here:

1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends (Greek - telos) of the ages have come.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strongs

G5056 telos tel'-os

from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal);

properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If what Paul is saying that the goal of the ages had arrived in his lifetime then this does not bode well for the futurist "theologies" and modern day "Israel" 1900 years after Paul said the goal had arrived.

Another fatal blow..

Yes, that's a compelling passage echoed by Heb 9:

He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

The age came to an end within 40 years of this but these guys would tell us that nope, there's 2,000 + more years to go. It's been longer since Paul wrote 1 Cor than it's been between Moses and Christ, meaning Christ would have come in the middle of the ages and not the end.

Then there's Mt 13:

Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

We know when the tares were burned up, something about a big BBQ in a hen house. Oh Jerusalem, how I wish...