Not By Works

[JIMBO43]

What I find amazing Jimbo is this.

I can't recall the verses to hand but I'm sure there is something in the bible that talks about the refining fire of God in our lives.
Its a process that continues to happen so that all the crap is removed and the nuggets you talk about start to shine through.

Its a process. As a God refines us more and more the dross that in our lives starts to fall away.

People think that diamonds come from compressed coal but my understanding is that they don't.
A diamond in order to become one has to go through a process to become one.

I would say, you me and others are diamonds. All the elements are there and it's God who refines us and takes us through the process.

Refiners fire, my hearts one desire, is to be Holy and set apart for you Lord.

Jimbo my friend you are a nugget and a diamond.

billy you also go through this process based upon your ability to love back...other wise quite beautifull

 

[mailmandan]

wrongggggggggggg you forgot about the scripture that says if there is one believer in a house the whole house is sanctified

How does that make me wrong? What verse are you talking about?

 

[FranC]

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Do "bad" trees which "do not bear good fruit" represent believers? NO. What happens to them? They are cut down and thrown into the fire. It's the same in John 15:6.



5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me *(like the 11 remaining disciples)* and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, *(like Judas Iscariot)* he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Hi MMD
I understand what you're saying above.
If it matched with all other scripture, I would agree.
But it does not.

In Mathew 7:23, Jesus makes it very clear to whom He will say "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

He will say it to those who practice Lawlessness.

So, however you want to understand about the branches, Jesus Himself makes it very clear who it is that will perish.

Also, Jesus says in Mathew 7 that we will know false prophets, and anyone else claiming to be Christian, by their fruits.

If a tree bears BAD FRUIT, it is a BAD TREE.

It could have been bad from the beginning,
it could have become bad at some point...

The point is that trees bearing BAD FRUIT will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

This is why Jesus says that NOT ALL WHO SAY TO HIM, LORD LORD will He recognize because in the end the fruit was bad, and they were lawless.


As far as John 15.. there is no doubt whatsoever as to what is being said.

"If anyone does NOT ABIDE IN ME (ANYONE) he is thrown as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned".
John 15:6

All scripture must agree with all other scripture.

 

[BillG]

When the Bible shows you're wrong, you're wrong. All the writing with your eisegesis won't change a thing.

Evening brother.

I do have to say that I find your post quite amusing.
The other person is wrong and you are not.
You are wrong and the other person is not.

I don't find your post amusing to tell you are wrong but because both sides will say the same thing.

Both sides can back up their view with scripture and commentary yet the other is wrong.

To be honest I withdrew for a long time talking to fellow believers about what I believed in terms of salvation, works and so on.
I was so frightened of leading them down the wrong path, even though I felt happy with my position (after a lot of study)

My main problem was that one day when I stand before God he would say "Tut tut you really got that wrong didn't you?
And then I had no idea what would happen after that.

I spoke to the pastor of our church about this.

He said something along the lines of "If you get it wrong that's not the issue as such, if your heart is to walk with people to empower them to become more like Jesus that's what God will look at

It is intersting though that Peter and Paul disagreed. Paul told Peter he was wrong and they didn't even have the bible we have.

To me it's we are saved by faith and not works.
If we are saved by faith then we bear fruit, we want to bear fruit, we want to become more like Jesus.
We want Jesus to increase in us and we decrease.

If a person wants that praise God, even if they struggle to do so.

If they struggle then that is when we come alongside and help and walk.

 

[mailmandan]

Hi MMD
I understand what you're saying above.
If it matched with all other scripture, I would agree.
But it does not.

It certainly does match up and it's called harmonizing scripture with scripture.

In Mathew 7:23, Jesus makes it very clear to whom He will say "Depart from Me, I never knew you."

Yes, Jesus NEVER knew them because they were NEVER saved.

He will say it to those who practice Lawlessness.

Children of the devil practice lawlessness, not children of God (1 John 3:7-10) which matches up with bad tree/bad fruit; fruitless branches.

So, however you want to understand about the branches, Jesus Himself makes it very clear who it is that will perish.

UNBELIEVERS.

Also, Jesus says in Mathew 7 that we will know false prophets, and anyone else claiming to be Christian, by their fruits.

BAD FRUIT because false prophets are bad trees.

If a tree bears BAD FRUIT, it is a BAD TREE.

It could have been bad from the beginning,
it could have become bad at some point...

It's either GOOD or BAD. Nothing is mentioned about the good tree going bad at some point. It was bad all along.

The point is that trees bearing BAD FRUIT will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Because they are BAD trees, which represents unbelievers.

This is why Jesus says that NOT ALL WHO SAY TO HIM, LORD LORD will He recognize because in the end the fruit was bad, and they were lawless.

Because they were UNBELIEVERS. Jesus NEVER knew them.

As far as John 15.. there is no doubt whatsoever as to what is being said.

"If anyone does NOT ABIDE IN ME (ANYONE) he is thrown as a branch, and dries up, and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned".
John 15:6

Good description of Judas Iscariot who was never saved, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). *See how this all fits together?

All scripture must agree with all other scripture.

Exactly! Scripture must harmonize with scripture. I say that all the time.

 

[Jackson123]

It certainly does match up and it's called harmonizing scripture with scripture.

Yes, Jesus NEVER knew them because they were NEVER saved.

Children of the devil practice lawlessness, not children of God (1 John 3:7-10) which matches up with bad tree/bad fruit; fruitless branches.

UNBELIEVERS.

BAD FRUIT because false prophets are bad trees.

It's either GOOD or BAD. Nothing is mentioned about the good tree going bad at some point. It was bad all along.

Because they are BAD trees, which represents unbelievers.

Because they were UNBELIEVERS. Jesus NEVER knew them.

Good description of Judas Iscariot who was never saved, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11). *See how this all fits together?

Exactly! Scripture must harmonize with scripture. I say that all the time.

so bad fruit is un believer and good fruit is believer

member of church or pastor that produce bad fruit is unbeliever

 

[sevenseas]

You are welcome, and thank you for answering. I found that paranormal experiences increased when I was with certain people, but I was not saved at the time, as far as I know. I am uncertain as to the exact date of my being saved, for I had multiple supernatural encounters with God before surrendering/submitting to Him

it is my belief, and I think that it's biblical, that some are more sensitive to the spiritual world

for me, it started before I was saved as well. I was saved at 5 and that is probably a good thing

I'm still sensitive to things like that but I understand better now when things 'happen'

thanks Magenta!

 

[FranC]

Truth is a person Fran
.
You did it again. Where's my original post?
Of course truth is a person.

Really? I just looked and I don't see those words at all. Perhaps you perceive that is what is said. Why would that be?

What words?
You mean about how you had said that we have no need to worry about sin?

Dear stone, you went much FARTHER than that in you post no. 24161.
Here's what you said:


"There are laws in the Kingdom, but they reveal how the Kingdom works. Not that we have to obey them...they are instruction on walking or living here, out of our position of sitting down with Him in the heavenlies.

Something very few Pastors touch on. And I'm still learning."


That's quite a statement. And, it's not the first time you've said it.
I believe this would make many new Christians lose their way.


Sin consciousness Fran. Not individual sins. Look at the term and find out what it is. We have a conscience that knows right and wrong and that's not the new creation man. Even fallen men know.

I'll try my best to find out what the term means. In the meantime, maybe you could find out that God does not WANT us to sin.
It is an important concept.


~Rom 13:8　 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
　
Rom 13:9　 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.　

The 10 commandments. Why didn't you just say the 10 commandments rather than a list that we must do?

Rom 13:10　 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.　


Rom 13:11　 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
　
Rom 13:12　 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.　


Rom 13:13　 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
　
Rom 13:14　 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.　

I've spoken of this many times. We don't obey laws which are outward obedience to what is written. Control. This does not work.

Just read what you wrote above.
I rest my case.
AGAIN.

You aren't presenting the answer which is to put on Jesus Christ. Think righteousness. Walk in the love that He has given us. Even agape love is not of ourselves. This is His love.

In fact, in Romans 13:14 Paul says to make no provision for the flesh and its lusts. already addressed.

I suppose YOU are providing the correct answer.
We are to just do what we want to and never worry about sin?
1 John 1:6


There is no condemnation to those who walk in Spirit. How can one walk in Spirit if one thinks they are flesh? That's the very first step that we need to know. We are now Spirit. No longer flesh. Condemnation paralyzes one that they can't move forward to receive forgiveness. Mercy and love through forgiveness is restoration.

He has forgiven all sins. The sins of the world He has died for. That is all sin. The very nature of sin is struck down by the Cross. That is the gospel.

Are you a gnostic person?
You said...

"We are spirit
We are not flesh."

That's rather a scary thought.
The bible says we are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
It does not say that we are not flesh.
Please provide a scripture if it does - perhaps I don't remember.



This is discernment. Going beyond what men can see with natural eyes, hearing of ears, but seeing in the Spirit.


Thanks for describing what discernment is.
You sure do have a lot of spirit.
It shows........



Your problem continues when you say "behave properly". You can't see what we are saying.

§So, are you saying we ARE NOT to BEHAVE PROPERLY ,,, just like you say we are not to worry about sin??

 

[FranC]

Sanctification comes through receiving Holy Spirit. We are set apart for God. Salvation is for our soul. We are saved permanently within our spirit by being sealed.

And we walk trusting the Lord to save us by His promises. And He does.

Try not to be snarky Fran. Doesn't go well with the mantle of Jesus.

Hey Stone,
Your love for God and your fellow man is showing again.

Could you please do me and those reading along a big favor and post WHERE
I was being "snarky"?

Since it doesn't go well with the mantle of Jesus, and I like to follow Him as best as I can,
I would really like to know when I was snarky to you so I won't do it again.

Here's my statement to you: Thanks.

I was replying to a comment you made. You said that Sanctification is a process. Your post no. 24240.
Since this is what I've been saying for over 500 pages, I was very happy to hear that you agreed...


Originally Posted by FranC View Post

Did you just say salvation is a PROCESS????

You mean, like SANCTIFICATION????

This is SO NICE to hear.
I've been saying this for about 500 pages now.
So you agreed with me all along and never said so?

Salvation is indeed a process.

I wish everyone understood this...

 

[FranC]

There are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification--WHICH IS THE PROCESS--not to be confused with justification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

So if we are BEING SAVED...

That clearly means that it's a process.

ANY process could come to an end.
If the OFF switch is pushed.
By the person wanting to push it.

 

[JIMBO43]

How does that make me wrong? What verse are you talking about?

i think you need to work that out for your self.. people where sanctified befor the spirit too.....

 

[stonesoffire]

§So, are you saying we ARE NOT to BEHAVE PROPERLY ,,, just like you say we are not to worry about sin??

Fran

Possibly if you answer my whole post like I've tried to do with yours and others...you may see why I said it isn't about how we behave. Life in the Spirit fran...just a hint.

Your conclusion is so off base.

 

[FranC]

Read the commentaries..... you're wrong.

Of course the statements are wrong.

If one DRAWS BACK,,,
it means he was somewhere
and then left there.

We need §Greek???

 

[FranC]

so how come you dont get that faith and grace are not a once in a lifetime event ?

 

[JIMBO43]

We are not born with the Holy Spirit already in us.

no but we are born with the seed of life

 

[BillG]

Of course the statements are wrong.

If one DRAWS BACK,,,
it means he was somewhere
and then left there.

We need §Greek???

Why are you so opposed to the Greek, given that the NT was written in a Greek.

So the bibles we have today and with their commentary give the meaning of the Greek word and explains its context with regards to the verses in the bible.

 

[mailmandan]

So if we are BEING SAVED...

That clearly means that it's a process.

ANY process could come to an end.
If the OFF switch is pushed.
By the person wanting to push it.

Being saved from the POWER of sin--(ongoing sanctification) [for those who have been saved from the PENALTY of sin]--(justification) is the process and it will come to an end for believers when they are glorified (Romans 8:30).

 

[mailmandan]

Of course the statements are wrong.

If one DRAWS BACK,,,
it means he was somewhere
and then left there.

We need §Greek???

Drew back somewhere short of believing to the saving of the soul.

 

[stonesoffire]

§So, are you saying we ARE NOT to BEHAVE PROPERLY ,,, just like you say we are not to worry about sin??

This is snarky.

~According to what you've written above ---
The truth, according to you, is that we should have no worry for sinning

This above

and the comment of the academy award.

Not necessary...making judgments of your own on what I am saying and they are erroneous. Just answer the post with your scripture to back it up.

Same to you seven. I can prove everything I said with the greek and the Hebrew. And if Paul were here...would you believe his revelation? Or call him mystical. After all, he went into heaven and received this right from our resurrected Lord.

I hear the HolySpirit within. Am fine tuned to His Spirit because I don't have my own doctrines that I deem to be truth. Or pet doctrines I should say. Then I look for it in the Word. I have no denominational ties or to any movement. I listen then look.

Anyone who will keep the goal of truth even if it scratches out all you might of thought before, He will give more and more revelation.

And most important...it's revelation of Jesus and His body.

 

[FranC]

Only according to the commentaries that you agree with.

Stephen is right MMD.

Here's what you had written:


In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Without even mentioning what Paul was speaking of in the verses just before
(Hebrews 10:36 --- the need for endurance so that WHEN WE HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, we will receive what was promised)

It's sufficient to ask:

If one is drawing back...
What is he drawing back from...?

They Drew back to PERDITION.

So, they were saved,
They Drew back to perdition,
They became unsaved.

Easy. No commentary necessary if we just read the bible plainly.