Not By Works

[Stephen63]

Sometimes we think some truths are new but in reality they are not. Here is someone back in the 1800's that had a supposedly "heretical" understanding of grace in the form of our sins being forgiven and those sins were continually being washed by the blood of Jesus.

This is in reference to 1 John 1:7 which says that we are continually cleanses by the blood of Jesus - why? Because we walk in the light. Jesus is the light and we are in Him in our new creation which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

I was reading about a hymn writer from the 1800's called Frances Ridley Havergal. She wrote many hymns and knew Latin, French, German, Greek and Hebrew.

She also knew by heart the 4 gospels, epistles and the book of Revelation by the time she was 23 years old - yet she still lived in total defeat.

She thought she had "great wickedness in her heart" - because of religious traditions taught to her which is what humanistic belief systems believe. They think Christians are a "new evolution" and thus they need to create and maintain their own self-righteousness.

It wasn't until she was reading in the Greek that the present tense was used for 1 John 1:7 "...His blood cleanseth us from all sin".

She realized all her sins were forgiven by the blood of Jesus and thus she believed it and experienced peace and joy in her life because of this truth and lived a holier life.

Here is a direct QUOTE:

" Have we not been limiting 1 John 1:7 , by practically making it refer only to "remission of sins that are past" instead of taking the grand simplicity of "cleanseth from all sin"?

"All" is all; and as we may trust Him to cleanse us from the stain of past sins so we may trust Him to cleanse us from all present defilement; yes, all!

By refusing to take 1 John 1:7 in it's fullness, we will lose the fullness of it's application and power in our lives. It goes on cleansing , and I have no words to tell how my heart rejoices in it."

UNQUOTE:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zO_...%22%3F&f=false

She got the revelation that all her sins were forgiven because she was in Christ and thus always in the Light and His blood continually cleansed her.

She was able to walk free in Christ from that point on. Today she would be called a heretic and being in error by some for having this belief.

Believing the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ finished work on the cross and resurrection will change us as we grow in His grace. We grow in His grace by the "hearing of Christ Himself".

Here is a book for those interested in her life: Jennie Chappell, "Women Who Have Worked and Won: the life story of Mrs. Spurgeon, Mrs. Booth-Tucker, F.R. Havergal, and Ramabai," London: S.W. Partridge & Co. Ltd. 1904

How do we know the difference between a christian, & a charlatan? A true teacher & a false one?

A true teacher, a true christian, will love the Word & use it continuously, for God honors His Word & backs it. It will not fall to the ground.

Charlatans & false teachers & cultists will quote books, authors, web sites before using the scripture itself.

Aannd, when they use the scripture, it's only a verse at a time to spin a new meaning on it & deceive the people.

Did you see it? The evidence?

G777 talks about 1 John 1:7 all thru the post, But never even quotes the whole verse!

G777 states it means we are forever forgiven automatically.

Here's the single verse:New International Version
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

New Living Translation
But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

English Standard Version
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

New American Standard Bible
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The whole verse says we're cleansed from all sin IF we continually walk in the light.

If you believed the above post, you have been deceived right here on CC by a charlatan false teacher that can't possibly have Christ & all this false teaching in his heart at the same time.

 

[Cee]

Simply read through the posts on this thread. And note those who say we must "bear fruit" or we will be eternally damned. And see how much fruit their posts display. How loving, peaceful, gentle, kind, hopeful, pure, and sincere are they? Investigate the fruit of this "keep your salvation" theology for yourself. Many don't even follow their own "fruit bearing" theology. It appears that if you simply argue you can lose your salvation that's the only fruit their theology needs to have. This doesn't go for everyone in their camp, I've interacted with some Christ-like posters who believe you can lose your salvation, but by and large the evidence is truly staggering of what kind of disciples this work-focused theology is making. By their fruit you shall know them indeed.

 

[Stephen63]

well Stephen, didn't Jesus die for all the world? You want to call that hyper grace? Maybe so but scripture calls it abounding doesn't it?

I wouldn't insult grace if you view hypergrace as evil, if I were you.

You just rewrote & spun my statement. You are known by your fruits.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Cee

It's not out of context.

It's dealing with people who are being deceived. And it says it's not possible.

Just because you don't like it, because it doesn't fit your theology doesn't make it out of context.

And once again you are insinuating that I don't know anything about fruit bearing. I have written numerous posts about it. And this post has nothing to do with fruit-bearing.

You will be ignored the next time you do this passive-aggressive behavior. I find it rude, demonic, and not all Christ like.

is some would actually talk with us, instead of talking down to us, so much more fruitful conversation would take place.

I agree that is why I am constantly saying to "guard our hearts".

This is not a church setting where there are local leadership where they can address this kind of behavior.

This means we are to take what Paul and the writer of Hebrews into consideration until the environment is right for proper interaction with others that continue with this type of behavior.

Romans 16:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The ones that continue with this type of behavior and those that receive of this behavior can end up in this situation too.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

We should be able to give our thoughts on subjects without others being dis-respectful and without them deceitfully saying things that are not being said.

We can respectfully agree to dis-agree and leave it in the hands of the Lord as we all see through a glass darkly as we have this treasure ( Christ Himself) in this earthen vessel.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Stunned, those before the Cross had no inward change. We don't have to see to believe because we have experienced God with the new birth.

I don't think I agree...some before the cross had inward change. Read Davids psalms.

 

[Stephen63]

First off don't be passive aggressive with me. I have written numerous posts on fruit bearing. Next I didn't ask what a repented heart showed, I said how does one obtain it? And who determines that we are sincere enough? Thank you.

My bad.....
By allowing the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sins, & respond favorably & obey Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

I love it when I get to preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and His great work on the cross and resurrection because of His love and grace for us!

John 1:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.


"If" we walk in the light - this is a sphere of living - the condition of being in the light means that we are in Christ and He is in us and thus we have fellowship with each other and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

(cleanses us = present tense continuous cleansing - if we were perfect in all our fleshly behavior - why would we need the constant cleansing of the blood of Jesus...selah ).

We are always light in the Lord.

Believers are definitely in the light. The scriptures are clear on this.

Ephesians 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light ( we should be walking out who we are in the light..but it's through Him we do that. )


Colossians 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.


1 Thessalonians 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

Here Paul is contrasting the believer and the unbeliever. Notice the believer is called "light".

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye ( believers ) not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

The understanding of this truth brings "repentance" to us to walk as who we are in the Lord.

Believers in Christ sealed with the Holy Spirit of whom Jesus said would be in us forever ( John 14:16 ) do not go in and out of Christ. It's a bunch of religious nonsense.

Preach the truth of what Christ has already done for us and the believer will have the proper nutrients to walk out what is already theirs in the new creation.

This is called the renewing of the mind and this brings true transformation by the Holy Spirit as we behold the goodness/glory of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

My bad.....
By allowing the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sins, & respond favorably & obey Him.

But HOW can a man obey Him if anger in our heart is murder??

 

[Stephen63]

The understanding of this truth brings "repentance" to us to walk as who we are in the Lord.

Believers in Christ sealed with the Holy Spirit of whom Jesus said would be in us forever ( John 14:16 ) do not go in and out of Christ. It's a bunch of religious nonsense.

The understanding of truth comes thru the conviction of the Holy Spirit & the fear of the Lord.

You make it sound like we do our own understanding.

Quit walking with God & we'll quickly see how we can fall from grace.

 

[Stephen63]

It's not out of context.

It's dealing with people who are being deceived. And it says it's not possible.

Just because you don't like it, because it doesn't fit your theology doesn't make it out of context.

And once again you are insinuating that I don't know anything about fruit bearing. I have written numerous posts about it. And this post has nothing to do with fruit-bearing.

You will be ignored the next time you do this passive-aggressive behavior. I find it rude, demonic, and not at all Christ like.

I noticed you didn't use context to prove it.

Posting a thousand posts about fruit bearing doesn't mean you know about it.

Demonic..... now that's real cute, isn't it?

Ignore me right now..... that don't hurt my little feelings.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yup....it is all there.

It seems to be the side effects of

insisting on proof
insisting on work as part of salvation,
insisting His grace is not sufficient,
insisting the cross is not enough,
insisting belief/faith is not enough,
insisting one must maintain a repentant heart
insisting the work of the cross is not finished
insisting on sin confession (believed to be requesting more forgiveness)
insisting eternal life can be forsaken or lost


Where the focus is on SELF and the works/failures of others....so it is to be expected

Simply read through the posts on this thread. And note those who say we must "bear fruit" or we will be eternally damned. And see how much fruit their posts display. How loving, peaceful, gentle, kind, hopeful, pure, and sincere are they? Investigate the fruit of this "keep your salvation" theology for yourself. Many don't even follow their own "fruit bearing" theology. It appears that if you simply argue you can lose your salvation that's the only fruit their theology needs to have. This doesn't go for everyone in their camp, I've interacted with some Christ-like posters who believe you can lose your salvation, but by and large the evidence is truly staggering of what kind of disciples this work-focused theology is making. By their fruit you shall know them indeed.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'll ask again, HOW can we obey Him if anger in our heart is murder?

The best I can do is try to not let anyone see my anger, hide it inside.

The Holy Spirit has definitely convinced me that anger in my heart at another is murder. I have agreed, responded in belief that what He said is true. Now I am supposed to obey Him and not have anger in my heart? That would be obedience to His command. Except that no matter how hard I try, I CAN'T never have anger in my heart at another. So is He asking the impossible from me?

 

[stonesoffire]

You just rewrote & spun my statement. You are known by your fruits.

I wrote what is truth. Did He or did He not die for all the world?

 

[stonesoffire]

I don't think I agree...some before the cross had inward change. Read Davids psalms.

No one was born from above until the time of Jesus. David wrote a lot that was prophetic, looking ahead to who was coming and what He would do.

 

[stonesoffire]

I'll ask again, HOW can we obey Him if anger in our heart is murder?

The best I can do is try to not let anyone see my anger, hide it inside.

The Holy Spirit has definitely convinced me that anger in my heart at another is murder. I have agreed, responded in belief that what He said is true. Now I am supposed to obey Him and not have anger in my heart? That would be obedience to His command. Except that no matter how hard I try, I CAN'T never have anger in my heart at another. So is He asking the impossible from me?

who said one cannot be angry? Just don't sin in anger. State why you are angry. We all have that right.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No one was born from above until the time of Jesus. David wrote a lot that was prophetic, looking ahead to who was coming and what He would do.

I was talking about your comment that before the cross "no one had inward change." So I was saying I didn't believe that. I agree that David wrote a lot prophetically.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

who said one cannot be angry? Just don't sin in anger. State why you are angry. We all have that right.

But to say "just don't sin in anger" doesn't make sense to me...murder IS sin. So if I have anger in my heart at you, I have ALREADY murdered according to our Lord. So I have already sinned...so to then say, just don't sin in anger, doesn't make sense to me.

 

[stonesoffire]

Stunned, Jesus was under the law, and fulfilling it by His life. He was showing how evil the natural man is without His presence within us.

 

[BillG]

I was talking about your comment that before the cross "no one had inward change." So I was saying I didn't believe that. I agree that David wrote a lot prophetically.

David also got it wrong a lot and big time and it cost lives.
He should have actually been killed for some of the stuff that he did.

But we find God loved him because David was a man after his own heart (Gods that is)

 

[stonesoffire]

But to say "just don't sin in anger" doesn't make sense to me...murder IS sin. So if I have anger in my heart at you, I have ALREADY murdered according to our Lord. So I have already sinned...so to then say, don't sin in anger doesn't make sense to me.

We don't have to act in anger such as yelling. And believe me stunned, this is fairly new to me. We don't have to lose control when we yield to His Spirit within us. Calmly state to whoever, why you are angry. Then the ball is in their court so to speak, to respond.