I am assuming you believe in the trinity theory, If my assumption is incorrect, I apologies. The trinity theory would have people believe that as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as a persona to make up the three and yet are all one combined, then if one died, all three would have to die to make the matter a matter of truth. If this is not that case, which it isn’t, then it would say God didn't die and we are all believing a lie. Can God lie, Never!!!!!
Another requirement for salvation; Not that simple
- Thread starter Jackson123
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*Key word in verse 9. The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. *Also, don't forget verse 11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
A good way to twist it is to teach that Paul is describing the "righteous" instead of the "unrighteous" in verses 9 and 10.
That is a straw man argument. Also, works include much more that just circumcision and who is throwing away verses like Galatians 5:21? In Galatians 5:19-21, we read - 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. *Who is it that practices such things? As we read in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, it's the unrighteous.
*Now read 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
A good way to twist it is to teach that Paul is describing the "righteous" instead of the "unrighteous" in verses 9 and 10.
That is a straw man argument. Also, works include much more that just circumcision and who is throwing away verses like Galatians 5:21? In Galatians 5:19-21, we read - 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. *Who is it that practices such things? As we read in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, it's the unrighteous.
*Now read 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Unbelievers/those who teach salvation by works are not saved (John 3:18; Ephesians 2:8,9).
That's a loaded question coming from you, since you once said that works keep us saved. So works are necessary for what? Necessary means of salvation or necessary fruit of salvation? I have said numerous times that man is saved through faith, not works, yet faith is evidenced by works. So good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith. If someone claims to have faith yet they produce no works at all, then their profession of faith is bogus (James 2:14). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
When did I say that I don't like to do any works? That's not true at all. Your straw man arguments and slander do not help your case at all. I know that I have been saved through faith and believers are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. Unlike you, I do good works BECAUSE I'm saved and not to become saved.
There also is a lot of irony running loose in here. So who is a false prophet in here? Has anyone prophesied to you? I would say there are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing.
WORKS is not a horrible word and I'm not afraid of it. Are you afraid of the words grace and faith?
So which of these verses above that you quoted teach that man is "saved by works?" NONE OF THEM. You and I have discussed some of those verses in the past that you have mistaken to teach that salvation is by works, but I showed you otherwise. Genuine believers follow Jesus and are not afraid of works and clearly understand that man is saved through faith in Jesus and not by works.
Romans 3:27 - Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Titus 3:5 - Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
That's a loaded question coming from you, since you once said that works keep us saved. So works are necessary for what? Necessary means of salvation or necessary fruit of salvation? I have said numerous times that man is saved through faith, not works, yet faith is evidenced by works. So good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith. If someone claims to have faith yet they produce no works at all, then their profession of faith is bogus (James 2:14). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.
When did I say that I don't like to do any works? That's not true at all. Your straw man arguments and slander do not help your case at all. I know that I have been saved through faith and believers are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. Unlike you, I do good works BECAUSE I'm saved and not to become saved.
There also is a lot of irony running loose in here. So who is a false prophet in here? Has anyone prophesied to you? I would say there are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing.
WORKS is not a horrible word and I'm not afraid of it. Are you afraid of the words grace and faith?
So which of these verses above that you quoted teach that man is "saved by works?" NONE OF THEM. You and I have discussed some of those verses in the past that you have mistaken to teach that salvation is by works, but I showed you otherwise. Genuine believers follow Jesus and are not afraid of works and clearly understand that man is saved through faith in Jesus and not by works.
Romans 3:27 - Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
Titus 3:5 - Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
so u agree then??????? someone who practices those things wont inherit the Kingdom of God............ but that would be too good to be true so let me guess the verse 11 when it says were cleansed, it doesnt mean they stopped doing those things, but it just means they accepted Jesus and now they are "positionally" righteous, but not actually stopping those things that are listed???????????
thats most likely what it is, but i could be wrong............
thats most likely what it is, but i could be wrong............
Nobody is saying that genuine faith does not lead to action. It's not faith alone "in that sense." That would be an empty profession of faith/dead faith that is barren of works (James 2:14). Anyone who does not obey at all demonstrates they are not saved. It's not about must obey in order to become saved but will obey if we truly are saved. You seem to have this backwards.
The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
Genuine believers "trust only" in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and not in their works. This is where you are blind.
Those who teach that salvation through faith in Christ alone and is not by works - Ephesians 2:8,9 (not to be confused with what James refers to "faith only" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that is barren of works - James 2:14) have no problem. It's those who teach that salvation is through faith (their version of faith) + works that have the problem.
You obviously deeply believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." That is believing in your head, but I see no evidence from your words that you believe in your heart by TRUSTING EXCLUSIVELY in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.
Absolutely! His resurrection is not something that had to happen in order to "merely" make it "possible" for us to be saved by works. His death, burial and resurrection is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.
Faith is voided by trusting in works for salvation. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ for salvation (not Christ + works) or else we are 100% lost.
So just like Roman Catholics, you define faith as obedience/works. It's no wonder you teach salvation by works. There is a difference between faith, "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" and obedience/works which follow and are produced "out of" faith. Sheep obey the shepherd BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. I at one time had attended the church of Christ so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and your argument above was a good demonstration of that. You said it yourself. "Obedience" (which is works) to the shepherd is what saves.
Faith without works is dead does not mean we are saved by works or that works are the source of life in faith. Genuine faith is not mere "mental assent" belief joined with works. Saving faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and is evidenced by works. Genuine faith results in producing obedience, yet we are saved through faith and not by obedience/works which follow.
The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
Genuine believers "trust only" in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and not in their works. This is where you are blind.
Those who teach that salvation through faith in Christ alone and is not by works - Ephesians 2:8,9 (not to be confused with what James refers to "faith only" - empty profession of faith/dead faith that is barren of works - James 2:14) have no problem. It's those who teach that salvation is through faith (their version of faith) + works that have the problem.
You obviously deeply believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." That is believing in your head, but I see no evidence from your words that you believe in your heart by TRUSTING EXCLUSIVELY in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.
Absolutely! His resurrection is not something that had to happen in order to "merely" make it "possible" for us to be saved by works. His death, burial and resurrection is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.
Faith is voided by trusting in works for salvation. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ for salvation (not Christ + works) or else we are 100% lost.
So just like Roman Catholics, you define faith as obedience/works. It's no wonder you teach salvation by works. There is a difference between faith, "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" and obedience/works which follow and are produced "out of" faith. Sheep obey the shepherd BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved. I at one time had attended the church of Christ so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and your argument above was a good demonstration of that. You said it yourself. "Obedience" (which is works) to the shepherd is what saves.
Faith without works is dead does not mean we are saved by works or that works are the source of life in faith. Genuine faith is not mere "mental assent" belief joined with works. Saving faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and is evidenced by works. Genuine faith results in producing obedience, yet we are saved through faith and not by obedience/works which follow.
You need to give the book, chapter and verse(s) you are using, because you are twisting Scripture. You are taking some words fron a verse and adding them to another.
Matthew 16:24-28 "Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
This is the Scriptures talking about taking up a cross and it says nothing about not being worthy of Jesus. So your basis for your works salvation is based on the twisting of Scripture.
You are not understanding the context of what Jesus is saying about the cross. What was said before Jesus told the disciples to take up their cross and follow Him?
Here's what was said before Jesus brought up taking up your cross, 16:21-23 "From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
What is the last thing He said before He said "take up your cross and follow me?" He said "For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man." He rebuked Peter and now is telling all of them if they have this idea here is what needs to happen. The word "life" in verse 25 can be translated "soul" so if a person does not want to set their mind on the things of God or his plan to save ones soul. They need to give up their soul for Jesus in that they will understand that it is Jesus and His suffering before "the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised." Which is God's plan or the things of God.
The context is the rebuking of Peter for his rebuking of Jesus as He explained the plan of the Father for salvation. Which involved the death and resurrection of Jesus and Peter in his flesh told Jesus that He did not need to do that for salvation to come.
Matthew 16:24-28 "Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
This is the Scriptures talking about taking up a cross and it says nothing about not being worthy of Jesus. So your basis for your works salvation is based on the twisting of Scripture.
You are not understanding the context of what Jesus is saying about the cross. What was said before Jesus told the disciples to take up their cross and follow Him?
Here's what was said before Jesus brought up taking up your cross, 16:21-23 "From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
What is the last thing He said before He said "take up your cross and follow me?" He said "For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man." He rebuked Peter and now is telling all of them if they have this idea here is what needs to happen. The word "life" in verse 25 can be translated "soul" so if a person does not want to set their mind on the things of God or his plan to save ones soul. They need to give up their soul for Jesus in that they will understand that it is Jesus and His suffering before "the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised." Which is God's plan or the things of God.
The context is the rebuking of Peter for his rebuking of Jesus as He explained the plan of the Father for salvation. Which involved the death and resurrection of Jesus and Peter in his flesh told Jesus that He did not need to do that for salvation to come.
May I ask how you deal with Paul's words describing the vessels unto dishonor that are still In His House as those that are saved but have not departed from iniquity yet whereas those that do are declared as vessels unto honor when they do depart from iniquity, even former believers that depart from their error of becoming atheists of agnostics? See 2 Timothy 2:18-21
1 John 3:9 could be misread as saying no saved believer can ever sin. So should we apply that to mean for all believers to give up following Jesus because obviously they are not really saved when they commit sin? No.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[SUP] 2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Obviously, saved believers can still sin and yet still have Jesus available to forgive them of their sins.
1 John 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
So what is the apostle John talking about throughout that book of 1 John?
1 John 2:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
This is about discerning whom are abiding in Him from those that say they are but living in unrepented sin.
John was addressing saved believers that err in thinking that sin is no longer sin to saved believers and so they can do whatever they want. That whole first chapter is based on reproving that by how Jesus walked in the light.
1 John 1:[SUP]3 [/SUP]That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.[SUP] 6[/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So this is about discerning among saved believers by how they walk if they are maintaining their fellowship with the Father & the Son. An assembly should not want an unrepented saved believer among them that could lead others astray for which they must be confronted, reproved by the scripture, and if unrepenting, they are to be excommunicated by the whole church to know why they were being excommunicated for so that when they do repent, they are allowed back in to fellowship after confession before all that they have asked Jesus to forgive them of their sins and to keep them from it.
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So 1 John 3:9 has to be taken in context of the whole book as giving a line of discernment as to whom is abiding in Him from those that are not, because no one born of God practices sin nor lives in unrepented sins when Jesus came for that purpose to destroy the works of the devil in our lives.... for which cause those not abiding in Him, should go before that throne of grace for help to not only see the sin for what it is, but their need of Him to depart from that sin and to help keep them from that sin in having dominion over their lives.
It is all a matter of discerning those who profess Him if they are really abiding in Him in maintaining that proper fellowship so that others are not misled in their error and be brought into bondage to sin and to an early ( physical ) death again, thus risking being left behind at the pre trib rapture to be received later on after the great tribulaion as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
1 John 3:9 could be misread as saying no saved believer can ever sin. So should we apply that to mean for all believers to give up following Jesus because obviously they are not really saved when they commit sin? No.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[SUP] 2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Obviously, saved believers can still sin and yet still have Jesus available to forgive them of their sins.
1 John 1:[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
So what is the apostle John talking about throughout that book of 1 John?
1 John 2:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
This is about discerning whom are abiding in Him from those that say they are but living in unrepented sin.
John was addressing saved believers that err in thinking that sin is no longer sin to saved believers and so they can do whatever they want. That whole first chapter is based on reproving that by how Jesus walked in the light.
1 John 1:[SUP]3 [/SUP]That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.[SUP] 6[/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:[SUP] 7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So this is about discerning among saved believers by how they walk if they are maintaining their fellowship with the Father & the Son. An assembly should not want an unrepented saved believer among them that could lead others astray for which they must be confronted, reproved by the scripture, and if unrepenting, they are to be excommunicated by the whole church to know why they were being excommunicated for so that when they do repent, they are allowed back in to fellowship after confession before all that they have asked Jesus to forgive them of their sins and to keep them from it.
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So 1 John 3:9 has to be taken in context of the whole book as giving a line of discernment as to whom is abiding in Him from those that are not, because no one born of God practices sin nor lives in unrepented sins when Jesus came for that purpose to destroy the works of the devil in our lives.... for which cause those not abiding in Him, should go before that throne of grace for help to not only see the sin for what it is, but their need of Him to depart from that sin and to help keep them from that sin in having dominion over their lives.
It is all a matter of discerning those who profess Him if they are really abiding in Him in maintaining that proper fellowship so that others are not misled in their error and be brought into bondage to sin and to an early ( physical ) death again, thus risking being left behind at the pre trib rapture to be received later on after the great tribulaion as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
The first inheritance in the kingdom of God is that eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is in Christ Jesus and that is to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre trib rapture event.
The pre trib rapture is when God shall judge His House first. Those not found abiding in Him as His disciples, will be disqualified and become castaways and not just lose the rewards of crowns. They will be damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House but shall be received by Him after the great tribulation at the resurrection that will occur FIRST BEFORE the rest of the dead that will happen alter on..at the great white throne judgment. ( Many believers mistaken "first resurrection" as meaning the only one to have had occurred when "first" was merely used in scripture to separate that resurrection at the end of the great tribulation was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected at the great white throne judgment, thus there is a pre trib rapture ).
Think of it as the prodigal son that had given up his first inheritance for wild living; he can never have that back, but he is still son as the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House will show off the power of God in salvation for even those who just believe in His name, even though they had not departed from iniquity in time by His help before the Bridegroom had come at the pre trib rapture event when God had judged His House by way of excommunicating those not worthy to attend the Marriage Supper for they were in iniquity still at that time.
The pre trib rapture is when God shall judge His House first. Those not found abiding in Him as His disciples, will be disqualified and become castaways and not just lose the rewards of crowns. They will be damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House but shall be received by Him after the great tribulation at the resurrection that will occur FIRST BEFORE the rest of the dead that will happen alter on..at the great white throne judgment. ( Many believers mistaken "first resurrection" as meaning the only one to have had occurred when "first" was merely used in scripture to separate that resurrection at the end of the great tribulation was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected at the great white throne judgment, thus there is a pre trib rapture ).
Think of it as the prodigal son that had given up his first inheritance for wild living; he can never have that back, but he is still son as the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House will show off the power of God in salvation for even those who just believe in His name, even though they had not departed from iniquity in time by His help before the Bridegroom had come at the pre trib rapture event when God had judged His House by way of excommunicating those not worthy to attend the Marriage Supper for they were in iniquity still at that time.
hi Johny_B
let me quote this verse
[h=1]Matthew 16:24New International Version (NIV)[/h]24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
I have question
what is you interpretation oN Deny themselves and take up their cross?
let me quote this verse
[h=1]Matthew 16:24New International Version (NIV)[/h]24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
I have question
what is you interpretation oN Deny themselves and take up their cross?
- [h=3]"Torture stake. [/h]The rendering of the Greek word stau·rosʹ, meaning an upright stake or pole, such as the one on which Jesus was executed. There is no evidence that the Greek word meant a cross, such as the pagans used as a religious symbol for many centuries before Christ. “Torture stake” conveys the full intent of the original word, since Jesus also used the word stau·rosʹ to indicate the torture, suffering, and shame that his followers would face. (Mt 16:24; Heb 12:2)—See STAKE."
Pagan terms and rituals are endemic in Christendom. Easter is a typical example as it is taken from a Roman Goddess and inculcated into Christendom's ideology.
Many misled people say, "It doesn't matter the origin as long as the meaning is for something else." Would this include going to a satanic Ritual and saying the same thing, and if not, why not? In fact, by the manner of celebration of Easter that Christendom abides by is the same as going to a satanic Ritual.
That is not what the scripture says. God sent His Son to pay the ransom for sin and that was why the Son of God became incarnated to a vessel where He could give His life as a ransom for many. The Son of God became the Son of man at the virgin birth. Not the Father and not the Holy Spirit that makes up the Triune God.
It was at Jesus's water baptism in Matthew 3:15-17 was when God fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 48:16-17 and the 2 Divine Witnesses of the Triune God was able to testify of the Son as God which is required of men to hold a true witness.
John 8:[SUP]17 [/SUP]It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
And that is how God can testify of the Son as God in order for the Triune God's testimony of His Son to be true.
Isaiah 48:[SUP]16 [/SUP]Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.[SUP] 17 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Matthew 3:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.[SUP]16 [/SUP]And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:[SUP]17 [/SUP]And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
It was at Jesus's water baptism in Matthew 3:15-17 was when God fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 48:16-17 and the 2 Divine Witnesses of the Triune God was able to testify of the Son as God which is required of men to hold a true witness.
John 8:[SUP]17 [/SUP]It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
And that is how God can testify of the Son as God in order for the Triune God's testimony of His Son to be true.
Isaiah 48:[SUP]16 [/SUP]Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.[SUP] 17 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Matthew 3:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.[SUP]16 [/SUP]And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:[SUP]17 [/SUP]And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Very good. I'm glad to read this. May Jesus help you to always be the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15):
Fight, firmly established in truth, the good fight of faith (1Timothy 1.18,19).
- "I charge thee in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables." (2Timothy 4.3,4).
Fight, firmly established in truth, the good fight of faith (1Timothy 1.18,19).
I do not gainsay this, cause what you stated is scripture. I am more thinking on the crucial water divider of either going about to establish one's own righteousness or submitting to the righteousness of God (which is Christ) and is revealed in the gospel. Could you tell us where you look for assurance of salvation and your right standing with God? Do you make a checklist everyday and thinking yourself to have kept all of what you have listed here or do you, perhaps, look unto the atoning blood of Christ and His imputed righteousness? Do you see any sort of difference between soul salvation and, as a result of this, wanting to become a follower of Christ?