The Rapture

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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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They are firstfruit Jews.

The stinging scorpions are ordered not to harm them.
They are called, "locusts" which sting like scorpions. They are NOT scorpions. I think you do this just to annoy me.

Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.


Rome invaded Israel riding horses and chariots and pulling scorpion machines. They arrived in Jerusalem in Feb of 70 AD. For 5 months, these scorpion machines launched darts into the city but not one dart hit any Christian Jew because they had fled to Pella earlier.


[SUP]4 [/SUP]They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Real locusts harm grass, trees and green things so HINT: these aren't real locusts. Instead they are an invading foreign, heathen army like we see in Joel 1.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]What the chewing locust left, the swarming locust has eaten; What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten; And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten...[SUP]6 [/SUP]For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion...

When the literal is illogical, look for the figurative. HoD what are we going to do with you??

FYI: Firstfruit Jews would be those early Christians in the first century, hence "firstfruit" duh!!
 
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FYI: Firstfruit Jews would be those early Christians in the first century, hence "firstfruit" duh!!
Yes mon this is what im trying to say as well. if it happened today it would be lastfruits u see.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Yes mon this is what im trying to say as well. if it happened today it would be lastfruits u see.
Exactly, but such intelligent thinking destroys the whole futurists' agenda, so we can't accept logic.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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The Father (King) leads his son (prince )as one God recognized by two attributes.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.................. Always were never a twinkling of the eye were two gods as spirits (plural) .

God is not a man as us . He remains without mother and father, beginning of Spirit life or end thereof as our eternal High Priest continually .

It all one work of one faith or labor of love, the faith of God. The father draws as a King the Son as the Prince raises.(one work)

Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.Joh 6:43

Are you DENYING that JESUS is both fully Human and the Spirit in JESUS IS YAHWEH HIMSELF, making HIM co-equally GOD along with the Father and the Holy Spirit?
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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I posted this yesterday in the Preterist challenge thread:

The problem with the latter day "rapture" theory is that is fails to take note of the full context of the "occasional" nature of the letters to the Thessalonians.

2 Th 1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

2 Th 1:5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

2 Th 1:6 For after all it is only just for God
to repay with affliction those who afflict you,

2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

Note that in the above Paul is promising relief and repayment to those that are afflicting THEM, and it was the Jews and their "henchman" that were doing the affliction. See his comments from his first letter to the Thessalonians:

1 Th 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,

2 Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2 Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

2 Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from persecution at the coming of the Lord in their lifetime (not hundreds of years into their future) when the persecutors/afflictors would be "punished with eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord."

The only nation on earth at that was said to dwell in
"the presence of the Lord" was Judah/Israel.

This is the same coming/presence as in 1 Th 4:15-17.

If this relief did not come in the lifetime of the Thessalonians as Paul promised we would have to conclude that he was mistaken, or worse a false prophet.

He was neither.

The meeting in the air (figurative) was a spiritual event at the coming of the Lord not for the removal of the church but to dwell with it "so shall we ever be with the Lord":

There is no taking the church out of the world, but there is deliverance:

John 17:15 “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
 

J7

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Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from persecution at the coming of the Lord in their lifetime(not hundreds of years into their future) when the persecutors/afflictors would be "punished with eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord."
They are being persecuted by Greeks, "of your own countrymen," . It is not absolutely certain they would have been proselytized Greeks, as the pagan Greeks also were trouble. Would have to check Acts on that.

More to the point, where does Paul say it is 'in their lifetime'?
 
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VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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Yes mon this is what im trying to say as well. if it happened today it would be lastfruits u see.

Isn't PlainWord forgetting a LOT of the Firstfruits of Israel?


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.



Galatians 3:5-6 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith
[SUP]6 [/SUP] just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?


Numbers 27:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;


1 Chronicles 12:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then the Spirit came upon Amasai, who was the chief of the thirty, and he said, "We are yours, O David, And with you, O son of Jesse! Peace, peace to you, And peace to him who helps you; Indeed, your God helps you!" Then David received them and made them captains of the band.



Nehemiah 9:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.



Psalm 51:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Psalm 143:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Let Your good Spirit lead me on level ground.



Malachi 2:14-16 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously."




Doesn't that mean that those who try to tell us that GOD divorced all of ISRAEL, NEVER READ VERSE 16 ABOVE?


Doesn't all of the verses above clearly point out that THOSE WHO HAD THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM also received the Holy Spirit just like we do? {Abraham believed GOD would send a Messiah.}

Doesn't that mean that the Remnant of True Believers throughout the Old Testament are the True Firstfruits of Israel?


Doesn't that make them co-equally IN MESSIAH with True Christians?
 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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Real locusts harm grass, trees and green things so HINT: these aren't real locusts. Instead they are an invading foreign, heathen army like we see in Joel 1.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]What the chewing locust left, the swarming locust has eaten; What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten; And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten...[SUP]6 [/SUP]For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion...
It's................................Monty Python's Flying Locusts...
 

Locutus

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Relief is promised right here:

2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,


Adam Clarke's commentary:

Ye also have suffered - of your own countrymen - It is worthy of remark that, in almost every case, the Jews were the leaders of all persecutions against the apostles and the infant Church. And what they could not do themselves, they instigated others to do; and, by gathering together lewd fellows of the baser sort from among the Gentiles, they made frequent uproars, and especially at Thessalonica, where the opposition to the Gospel was very high, and the persecution of the Christians very hot.

 
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Isn't PlainWord forgetting a LOT of the Firstfruits of Israel?


Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.



Galatians 3:5-6 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith
[SUP]6 [/SUP] just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?


Numbers 27:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;


1 Chronicles 12:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then the Spirit came upon Amasai, who was the chief of the thirty, and he said, "We are yours, O David, And with you, O son of Jesse! Peace, peace to you, And peace to him who helps you; Indeed, your God helps you!" Then David received them and made them captains of the band.



Nehemiah 9:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.



Psalm 51:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Psalm 143:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Let Your good Spirit lead me on level ground.



Malachi 2:14-16 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously."




Doesn't that mean that those who try to tell us that GOD divorced all of ISRAEL, NEVER READ VERSE 16 ABOVE?


Doesn't all of the verses above clearly point out that THOSE WHO HAD THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM also received the Holy Spirit just like we do? {Abraham believed GOD would send a Messiah.}

Doesn't that mean that the Remnant of True Believers throughout the Old Testament are the True Firstfruits of Israel?


Doesn't that make them co-equally IN MESSIAH with True Christians?
what does this have to do with the 144k being the first fruits to Christ?
if we go by what u said there is a bout a billion first fruits by now.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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They are called, "locusts" which sting like scorpions. They are NOT scorpions. I think you do this just to annoy me.

Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.


Rome invaded Israel riding horses and chariots and pulling scorpion machines. They arrived in Jerusalem in Feb of 70 AD. For 5 months, these scorpion machines launched darts into the city but not one dart hit any Christian Jew because they had fled to Pella earlier.


[SUP]4 [/SUP]They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Real locusts harm grass, trees and green things so HINT: these aren't real locusts. Instead they are an invading foreign, heathen army like we see in Joel 1.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]What the chewing locust left, the swarming locust has eaten; What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten; And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten...[SUP]6 [/SUP]For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion...

When the literal is illogical, look for the figurative. HoD what are we going to do with you??

FYI: Firstfruit Jews would be those early Christians in the first century, hence "firstfruit" duh!!
The Old testament saints walked in the same manner as us, by the same spirit of faith (Christ’s) as it is written. Just as us on this side of the cross. Therefore they received the end of Christ’s work of faith the salvation of their souls in the same way as us on this side of the cross.

Some would teach they had no assurance of their salvation until Pentecost.. no Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Christ.

God puts no difference between a Jew and a Gentile purifying the hearts of both by a work of His faith. He is no respecter of persons . God is not a man as us. He is not Jewish as if he had a father and mother a beginning of Spirit life or end thereof..

And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:8

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was “in them” did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9-11

The first fruits.. ....the glory that did follow and will continue up until the last day, the day of the Lord. .

The first fruits were the result of God’s three day promised work of faith as a labor of His love it fulfilled the prophecy spoken of in Ezekiel 37.

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. Eze 37:12

That land would be the new heavenly Jerusalem (Zion) Christ’s bride. Now that nothing could hold them seeing Christ had finished preparing a place of many mansion .The first fruits entered and were witnessed by many angels.

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. Mat 27:54


Jesus in John spoke of that manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was “in them” did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.....fulfilling the prophecy in Ezekiel 37

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:25

This is the first resurrection is be part of all saints today. To be absent of the body is to experience the first resurrection now that the work is finished.. The gathering in to celebrate the wedding supper is the second and final resurrection. Those that are alive reigning with Christ on the day of the Lord (the last day) will be caught up in the twinkling of the eye with those asleep hearing the wakeup call (arise) and both be changed into their promised new incorruptible bodies.


In regard to the Scorpion or what ever other descriptors of destructive lying spirits.

While we look not at the things seen the temporal they are used in parables to point to the things not seen, the eternal spiritual understanding hid from natural man . Poison whether it is used in respect to a serpent or a scorpion indicates false prophecy coming from false apostles. Green things represent those who have become born again... the poison of asps or scorpions as false doctrine will not affect them.

The word poison as to its purpose I would think should be established. I will offer a few verses as to how poison is used in parables..

Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. James 3:8


The father of lies a murder from the beginning.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:4

I would offer signs as that seen used in parables signify that not seen the eternal faith principle by which we can walk with our God as two in a agreement.. .

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:18

I think the 2 Corinthians 4:18 principle used in it shall not hurt them is expressed in the parable below.

(Purple in parenthesizes) my comment

And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. ,
( it shall not hurt them) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him,( it shall not hurt them) they changed their minds, and said that he was a god. Act 28:3

Those in unbelief did not receive the spiritual meaning of the parable and called Paul, as that seen, a god. This shows natural man walking by sight not mixing a faith that comes from hearing God in what they did hear and see .
 

J7

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Paul dates this event for us......

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints

Glorification has a very specific meaning....it means going from natural flesh to our new bodies, so therefore Paul is talking about the 2nd Coming, certainly not AD 70.

pressed - thlibo - and rest/relief/slackening the press - anesis, are words pertaining to the grape harvest, so we have a second date marker - again, the second coming.

Revelation 14:18
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.


Relief is promised right here:

2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,


Adam Clarke's commentary:

Ye also have suffered - of your own countrymen - It is worthy of remark that, in almost every case, the Jews were the leaders of all persecutions against the apostles and the infant Church. And what they could not do themselves, they instigated others to do; and, by gathering together lewd fellows of the baser sort from among the Gentiles, they made frequent uproars, and especially at Thessalonica, where the opposition to the Gospel was very high, and the persecution of the Christians very hot.

 

Locutus

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Feb 10, 2017
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I don't see how you have "refuted" my post in anyway. In fact it makes no sense at all at all.

When was to give relief to you supposed to happen, when they were dead?
 

J7

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It only makes no sense to you because you have no proper basis for understanding scripture. Sorry LC, either that, or you have embraced Preterism with such fervour that when anyone challenges you on anything, you just hurl random, and let's face it, pretty flimsy rejections back. I will deal with this later, I am going out now.

But your protestations that Revelation is pre AD67 are now looking ever more flakey. So you are saying that the persecuted Church will be relieved from persecution and tribulation by the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem.

So now go and corroborate that message in the words to the Churches in Revelation. You cannot, because it is not corroborated there.

Smyrna (Rev 2):

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Philadelphia (Rev 3):
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
 
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did da preterists just come together and say lets be done with it and lie that all prophecies are already fulfilled? lets make a religion with no hope and nothing to look forward to, only pessimism.
 

Locutus

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You still didn't answer the question seven:

When was to give relief to you supposed to happen, when they were dead?


And bringing in the seven churches in the book of rev actually works against you.
 

J7

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John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Jesus said tribulation ends when you die, so the short answer is yes, relief is when we die. I'll leave others to deconstruct your vain attempts to make something stick.
 

Locutus

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So Paul is promising the relief at death...hilarious.

However, that is not what he said, and trying to use John 16:33 is the epitome of desperation...
 

J7

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I told you, if you were paying any attention, which clearly you are not, because you are rattled that your shtick is rumbled, that I would reply after my walk. But I have found time to reply anyhow. See how nice I am :)

I am out of here now. Tired of dealing with people with little respect and lack of understanding like you LC. Worse still is your inability to read and digest answers. Goodbye
 

Locutus

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Looks to me like you are the one that is "rattled" seven, the evidence is all over your "shutter up" thread and in here...