Church Fathers = Fathers of “Catholic Tradition”
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Hi garee,
I wouldn't say it is a false translation: the Esv has it correctly translated here:
Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.
And the NIV here:
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
eis mian sabbaton.. 'of the first day' basically refers to first day of the week.
We use the word week because that is what is mean't. This was also used to show the first day of the week in Acts 20:7
en eis mia ton sabbaton 'on the first day of the week' . It is clearly mean't to signify the first day of the 'week'.
So it's really the meaning that comes from the text.
There is no Sabbath law that requires person not gather firewood on a Sabbath. It was not the reason the man was stoned.
It’s what he wanted to do with the firewood, violate the fast as it had to do with manna.
The Jews have added many so called kosher law as oral traditions to make the word of God without effect.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
By the time the New Testament came around three kosher meals were allowed on the Sabbath. They even invented distances a person could walk on the Sabbath .
It’s what he wanted to do with the firewood, violate the fast as it had to do with manna.
The Jews have added many so called kosher law as oral traditions to make the word of God without effect.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
By the time the New Testament came around three kosher meals were allowed on the Sabbath. They even invented distances a person could walk on the Sabbath .
Thanks for posting that, I didn't know about the words eis mian sabbaton, thinking on what you mentioned reminded me of these verses below, I think if the first day of the week wasn't concidered as being what people call today as Sunday then I'd assume a lot of juggling of days would happen and that doesn't seem correct to do in my opinion.
Mt27:62 The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate.
Mt27:63 "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, `After three days I will rise again.'
Mt27:64 So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."
Mt27:65 "Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how."
Mt27:66 So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.
Mt27:62 The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate.
Mt27:63 "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, `After three days I will rise again.'
Mt27:64 So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."
Mt27:65 "Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how."
Mt27:66 So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.
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Hi thanks for the reply...
The meaning that comes from the word rest, is rest .It is not a time sensitive word. The word week destroys the new era of rests, sabbaths.(plural) Not the new era of weeks.
In the end of the first era of rests(Saturdays), as it began to dawn toward new era of rests(Sundays), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
The meaning that comes from the word rest, is rest .It is not a time sensitive word. The word week destroys the new era of rests, sabbaths.(plural) Not the new era of weeks.
In the end of the first era of rests(Saturdays), as it began to dawn toward new era of rests(Sundays), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
I'll have to disagree with you on that one garee. Yes the sabbath was a day of rest, but in the context of using it to articulate days it was in the context of a week in the scriptures being discussed.. As in 'first day of the week' not first day of our sabbath rest in christ!
The scriptures elsewhere talk about our sabbath rest in Christ.
Same hat...same religion....different name...
Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"
Mat 15:7-9, "Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14)* prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them; And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"
Mat 15:7-9, "Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14)* prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
Well...observing/sharing holy time with a holy God would be the best way to become holy yourself !
Ex31v13 says ' verily my Sabbaths you shall keep for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations: that you may know that I am the Lord that does sanctify you.
If you want God's way to 'rub off on you then you better spend 'quality time with Him....and that time is 'decided by God Himself ! It's not all there is to becoming God-like but it is a START for personal instruction.
Why do you think Jesus/Yahshua will tell 'the MANY to depart from him ? He never knew them, they did not learn from Him, would not listen to Him...and had no chance of salvation.
You should think seriously of what you are rejecting !
Ex31v13 says ' verily my Sabbaths you shall keep for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations: that you may know that I am the Lord that does sanctify you.
If you want God's way to 'rub off on you then you better spend 'quality time with Him....and that time is 'decided by God Himself ! It's not all there is to becoming God-like but it is a START for personal instruction.
Why do you think Jesus/Yahshua will tell 'the MANY to depart from him ? He never knew them, they did not learn from Him, would not listen to Him...and had no chance of salvation.
You should think seriously of what you are rejecting !
I was not implying that they were unsaved at all. As I stated: They introduced many errors into Christianity. People can be genuine Christians but also hold to erroneous doctrines.
Since I did not wish to make a very extensive OP I did not go into a lot of detail. Yes all Christians consult the writings of the Early Church Fathers, but it is the Catholic churches (RCC, EOC) which have made their writings "Holy Tradition" and placed them on the level of Scripture, or at least the doctrines they taught as authoritative as Scripture. Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the footnotes therein.
No, I did not name names, since several of them held to the same erroneous doctrines, and the OP would have become cumbersome. Let's take the example of Cyprian. He is called Saint Cyprian by the traditionalist churches, and he taught baptismal regeneration. Now he was not a heretic and was a Christian, but this is false teaching. Today we have the same situation. There are men (and women) who are saved but they are also false teachers.
So this needs clarification. What we can say is that the Early Church Fathers said many things which were true and perfectly in accord with Scripture. They were also generally devout Christians. But they also generally held to false doctrine. Polycarp can be given as an example of someone who was teaching faithfully and did not have any false teachings. Here is one quote:
Polycarp 1:3
though ye saw Him not, ye believe with joy unutterable and full of glory; unto which joy many desire to enter in; forasmuch as ye know that it is by grace ye are saved, not of works, but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.
I thanks. Sorry in advance for rambling. I just can’t get past the changing of the meaning of a word that is not time sensitive in any way shape or form. Where some would give it form to represent to a certain time period.
The word Sabbath which is applies to anytime today is today (the present moment) or as long as the Sun and the Moon the two times keepers are above .
The word Sabbath defined ...
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts Hebrew 4:7
The word Sabbath is not time sensitive word in regard to a day or week or any time .It simply means “rest” with no other meaning attached to it. Mixing it with time sensitive words destroys the rest we do have whenever we hear His Word and do not harden our heart, That I believe describes the meaning not subject to change. To me it’s not like the gospel is a New Testament principle it began in the beginning at the foundation.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faithin them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Heb 4:2
I think the,” not being mixed with faith” (the unseen time period) is the key to understanding . When we try to make it fit a day or any time period we would be walking by sight.It would seem we then destroy His finished work, the works were finished from the foundation of the world.(verse 3)
Trying to make it into time sensitive word destroys the meaning of the word. It would be like speaking in another language .
It’s like another example of taking way the meaning of the word Sabbath and changing it into a time sensitive word rather than mixing faith in what they did hear or see(walking by sight)
In the parable the Pharisees was showing how much better he was that a tax collector hoping his outward religiosity would pay off. . At that time period the kosher amounts of times a person could eat the Pharisee's as a law of the fathers a oral traditions of men kosher foods was three meals on the Sabbath, (not week ) .He thought he had one up on common man.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess..
My offering below not changing the meaning of the word rest.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the Sabbbath , I give tithes of all that I possess..
I am sure there were plenty who fasted twice a week, some fast an entire week .But it must pertain to the fast set aside when no regular work was required a day we can bring the gospel out into the world the true fast that does, driving out lying spirits which the disciples could not cast out seeing they walked by sight and did not mix faith in what they did see and hear. This was until the gospel did drive out the lying spirits, a life time work. ..
The word Sabbath which is applies to anytime today is today (the present moment) or as long as the Sun and the Moon the two times keepers are above .
The word Sabbath defined ...
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts Hebrew 4:7
The word Sabbath is not time sensitive word in regard to a day or week or any time .It simply means “rest” with no other meaning attached to it. Mixing it with time sensitive words destroys the rest we do have whenever we hear His Word and do not harden our heart, That I believe describes the meaning not subject to change. To me it’s not like the gospel is a New Testament principle it began in the beginning at the foundation.
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faithin them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Heb 4:2
I think the,” not being mixed with faith” (the unseen time period) is the key to understanding . When we try to make it fit a day or any time period we would be walking by sight.It would seem we then destroy His finished work, the works were finished from the foundation of the world.(verse 3)
Trying to make it into time sensitive word destroys the meaning of the word. It would be like speaking in another language .
It’s like another example of taking way the meaning of the word Sabbath and changing it into a time sensitive word rather than mixing faith in what they did hear or see(walking by sight)
In the parable the Pharisees was showing how much better he was that a tax collector hoping his outward religiosity would pay off. . At that time period the kosher amounts of times a person could eat the Pharisee's as a law of the fathers a oral traditions of men kosher foods was three meals on the Sabbath, (not week ) .He thought he had one up on common man.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess..
My offering below not changing the meaning of the word rest.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the Sabbbath , I give tithes of all that I possess..
I am sure there were plenty who fasted twice a week, some fast an entire week .But it must pertain to the fast set aside when no regular work was required a day we can bring the gospel out into the world the true fast that does, driving out lying spirits which the disciples could not cast out seeing they walked by sight and did not mix faith in what they did see and hear. This was until the gospel did drive out the lying spirits, a life time work. ..
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Hi garee,
I can't really say anymore than what I said in previous post I disagree that the meaning is lost in the context of the Scriptures you first provided. The word week is clearly mean't. Regarding Luke 18:12, I have read similar jewish-christian website, give the same wording as you have.
Unless, you can convince me you know better than hundreds of linguistic.theological scholars over hundreds of years, I'll stick with my English translation whether you think it is false or not.
Does seem to pose a problem doesn't it? You were not allowed to walk more than something like six steps or that was a violation of the no work thing. Keep the recliner close to the outhouse eh?
Judaism took ten commandments and expanded them to six hundred and thirteen laws. Therein lies the problem with legalism.
Mt 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Judaism took ten commandments and expanded them to six hundred and thirteen laws. Therein lies the problem with legalism.
Mt 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Thanks for the reply..
The word week is clearly mean't to do what ? Add a time element to word that has none? Can a non-time sensitive word change and become time sensitive without changing the actual word?
And I am no scholar just like words and their meaning. The Greek did not even have a word for week. But I can recognize when a word meaning is changed . There are some scholars like that of Young’s literal who have not changed the literal meaning of the word to reflect their own belief system like those of Seventh-day Adventists that worship a time period and not rest a word not subject to a time period.
PS I would not mind seeing that reference to Luke 18.
