The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[peacefulbeliever]

Really? Because Neh is telling the "error of limited atonement."

This is the Calvinist's order of Salvation:

• Predestination
• Election
• Calling
• Regeneration
• Faith
• Repentance
• Justification
• Adoption
• Sanctification
• Perseverance
• Glorification

Which is your version?

And you also were included in Christ when
*you heard the message of truth the gospel of your salvation. (Faith comes from hearing) When
*you believed, you were (being fully persuaded of the truth of the gospel concerning Jesus Christ)
*marked with a seal, the promised holy spirit, who is a deposit (baptized with Holy Spirit)
*guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession (sealed until the day of redemption)
*to the praise of His glory. (all praise going to the Father for his great sacrifice, his great grace and his love--for His plan of salvation that gives us eternal life)

 

[trofimus]

what is with the Calvinists telling us we are not God?

is that their final argument?

get exasperated and tell someone they are not God?

what does that even mean since no one but God is God?

That probably means that even though it is obvious we are not God, some people are trying to ascribe some of God´s attributes to themselves like unlimited will and decision making without any causes.

To say they are in control of their lifes (like God).

 

[Dai3234]

Hm. Interesting. I am reformed yet am going to say this anyway.

Yes, I do have will. I have willed myself to learn marketing, and now I can market. I willed myself to learn gardening, and now the (small) majority of my plants live the standard number of months/years. I willed myself to learn html, and failed. I willed myself to learn how to write and I have worked all the way up to not-too-bad. I've got no problems with will.

BUT, as much will as I have, I just never willed myself to the Lord. Never thought of any particularly good reason to want to. After all, he's the one who doesn't think it's a good idea for me to be haughty, or gossipy, or stoned, or drunk, or self-centered, and I'm all about self-centered naturally, so why would I want to be him-centered or others-centered? Self-centered worked for me.

Yet, he changed that all by a flash of his Light. And once his brightness and love showed up, suddenly I wanted to follow.

I've got no problems with will. I just know it wasn't my will that brought me to him.

That's what you feel, that YOU decided to learn. And that God had nothing to do with it? God probably has a use for those skills, wants you to see someone or something, etc, etc. You don't decide anything. If anyone could, their actions would interfere with the long term plans of God, right?

 

[Depleted]

Bible says believe and be saved. Where is that in your extensive list?

For someone who does not study Calvinism you certainly have the propaganda at your fingertips.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm nosy, so I'm going to ask...
Which is is:
Bad comprehension skills?
Bad memory?
Or you just like to twist other peoples' words to further your agenda?

Did it ever enter into your thinking that you would benefit from reading what Calvin actually wrote?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Not really. I'd rather use the time to study the Bible. I'm more into commentators. That, and frankly, he's above my thinking level -- which, for the record, is why most Calvinists don't read Calvin, and also why we really would prefer to be called Reformed.

Why? Have you read Arminius? Because, I really don't assume you read everything, or even anything, by him either.

 

[Dai3234]

The more time I spend with Christian's, the more I see the need to reform the KJV Textus Receptus "translation". I find the textus receptus to be correct, but translated incorrectly (videos available, grace & truth ministries, textual criticism, YouTube and website, may help).

I'm currently having to hear wearing a hat is required by women "for the angels" in a newer church (3 months).
I left the last one because they all use the NIV Bible. It was a nice church

I'm going to have to hand over a data dvd and a letter showing the neuter gender meaning. Hope I don't feel too awkward and not return.

 

[Depleted]

Sir I am interested in the truth . I am also interested in accuracy. So I will share a little about me . I don’t follow any doctrine that I did not see in scripture.For your information I was not raised under any particular religious beliefs. My family was unchurched. I was a atheist . After a life of emptiness ,and one depressing night I was drawn to read scripture. I soon after believed. I read the whole Bible in just a few months. I then started to read it again and agian this time taking notes and I used regular and biblical dictionaries . This took years and I filled several composition books with notes . Also during this same time I went to find a congregation. It was here I realized I had a Reformed view of scripture. A friend helping me find a congregation told me . When he asked me what exactly I believed. So when you say that this doctrine is of the devil you are accusing me. I had not an do not read a commentaries to from my beliefs. My understanding came from scripture sir . I was a blank slate when it came to my beliefs.
Bill

I heard a reformed scottish preacher the other night, telling the first time he heard the word "Calvinism."

He read this really cool thing in the Bible and went to his (non-reformed) Baptist pastor to tell him about it. He said, "Did you know Jesus chose us?"

The pastor answered, "You've been reading Calvinist stuff?"

He answered, "No. I was reading Romans 9."

lol

 

[Dai3234]

People who hear the gospel and choose to believe it.


Because they want to.

The gift is not faith to believe, the gift is salvation by faith, which anyone can choose to have.

If you saw the Greek, you wouldn't be saying this. Saved means = sozo = to be taken from beginning to end. You, can't do that. It's the Holy Ghost etc.

And the point about recieving the gift = recieveth = grab with 10 fingers, but your DEAD IN YOUR SINS. Dead people can't grab.
(Grace and Truth ministries).

 

[Depleted]

(Romans 1:16,17) For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: . . . For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith (everyone who believes) from first to last . . . . (Rom. 3:22-25) - This righteousness comes from God - how is it obtained? through faith (belief/trust) in Jesus Christ and all are justified freely through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of his blood to be received by faith (faith/trust). So yes, we quit trusting in self for "works" righteousness and trust in what Christ has accomplished - Who is it for? All who believe . . . .

Yep, the entire Bible is about God and His relationship with mankind.[/SIZE]

Yep. Once again you pull out one verse, that might say what you're saying, but ignore the context. The context remains the same. All of Romans 1-7 is the 1001 ways man tried to get right with God, and all 1001 ways he failed. Half way into Romans 8 to somewhere in Romans 10, it's about what GOD did about it. And the final chapters is what we should do with this information. Meanwhile, you're busy convinced you found another way.

Other reason I rarely respond to you. You're in this to prove your point, not to find out who God is.

You talk easily about believing. You ignore the obvious. WHO are we believing in -- a god we can take or the only God there is?

 

[Dai3234]

Forget it, it's a waste of time. God either wants people to understand or not. His will be done, in Jesus Christ name Amen.

 

[Depleted]

And you also were included in Christ when
*you heard the message of truth the gospel of your salvation. (Faith comes from hearing) When
*you believed, you were (being fully persuaded of the truth of the gospel concerning Jesus Christ)
*marked with a seal, the promised holy spirit, who is a deposit (baptized with Holy Spirit)
*guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession (sealed until the day of redemption)
*to the praise of His glory. (all praise going to the Father for his great sacrifice, his great grace and his love--for His plan of salvation that gives us eternal life)

Bupkis! My story is the familiar one. I went to sleep as a nonbeliever and woke up his! Same story as my husband. Same story as most folks I know. The only other story is it happened during the day, but always with a mind on anything but the Lord.

And now you're taking this to God owes you, because you heard, you believed, you accepted the tattoo, and you praised him.

 

[Depleted]

And you're not God either. And that's exactly why you and other Calvinists should believe the Word of God -- which I clearly posted -- and which you continue to reject, in favor on man-made doctrines.

Since you quote Spurgeon all the time, let me quote from Spurgeon to show that Calvinists do not believe the Word of God.

We think that Calvin, after all, knew more about the gospel than almost any uninspired man who has ever lived)! We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. [From Sermon #181 -- Particular Redemption (Limited Atonement)]

Now please notice the last phrase "or all men would be saved". Nobody in their right mind or with an ounce of Gospel knowledge would claim that just because Christ's atonement is unlimited, all men would be automatically saved. That is utter nonsense, so why did Spurgeon even make such a remark? And why did Spurgeon fail to add that it only through repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ that men are saved?

While Christ died for the sins of the whole world, it is only those who obey the Gospel who are saved, and thus the atonement applies only to them. So once again, I will post the Scripture that clearly refutes and repudiates limited atonement, and Spurgeon did not even refer to this verse (Dabney did but then would not accept the logical and spiritual conclusion).

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 1:1,2).

I have you on ignore because what you do -- always -- is preach your POV, then add scripture, and pretend your POV IS scripture.

You've been called on your lack of logic, your distortions, and your lies enough that there is no purpose in repeating that. There was purpose in telling you that you aren't God. You still think you are, but at least those new in the Lord won't think your haughtiness comes from God.

 

[Depleted]

That probably means that even though it is obvious we are not God, some people are trying to ascribe some of God´s attributes to themselves like unlimited will and decision making without any causes.

To say they are in control of their lifes (like God).

Not really. Neh was preaching like he was inspired by God. If we do not agree with him, we do not agree with God. He's not God. I agree with God. I disagree with Neh. I'm capable of doing both even though he is haughty enough to think I can't.

As for 7? She's just here to prove she is always right about everything, so if anyone disagrees, they're wrong. She doesn't even bother with God. It's about her.

(Why I have them both ignored.)

 

[Depleted]

That's what you feel, that YOU decided to learn. And that God had nothing to do with it? God probably has a use for those skills, wants you to see someone or something, etc, etc. You don't decide anything. If anyone could, their actions would interfere with the long term plans of God, right?

Jonah willed to go the opposite direction from Nineveh, did he not?

We really do will. It's just that our wills are going to conform to what God wills for us. For his people, all things work together for their good and his glory. For not-his-people? Really not where I'd want to be.

I think this has much to do with the Lord's prayer. "Thy will be done." (Infers my will either aligns with his or goes wonky. So better to pray for our will to align with his.)

 

[preacher4truth]

I heard a reformed scottish preacher the other night, telling the first time he heard the word "Calvinism."

He read this really cool thing in the Bible and went to his (non-reformed) Baptist pastor to tell him about it. He said, "Did you know Jesus chose us?"

The pastor answered, "You've been reading Calvinist stuff?"

He answered, "No. I was reading Romans 9."

lol

Was that Sinclair Ferguson?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why are they not saved Why are they In Hell ?

Already provided the Scripture (John 3:14-21) above.

Are they in Hell for their sins or is it the sin of disbelief in Christ Jesus?

Already provided the Scripture (Mark 16:15,16; John 3:36)

Ok what about those that never heard the Gospel?

See Romans 1 & 2.

All these questions are to be left with God, since neither you nor I know the hearts and the circumstances of others. What we do have is the written Word of God. We can either believe it or disbelieve it.

Also note a simple plain reading of language translated into another is not always the best . 1 John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but a also for the sins of the whole world.” Look at the word for (The Greek Word peri it’s plus genitive) is not specific in regard to a certain way in which Christ is the propitiation “for” the sins of the world. Peri is defined “concerning” or “with respect to . It in no way is definite or specific enough to describe in what respect or way the atonement is applied.

This is a lame excuse. See Post #290. A dozen different translations have been quoted, AND THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING. Every translator has agreed that this verse says exactly what is said in the KJB.

So it is quite evident that you are still resisting the truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Not really. Neh was preaching like he was inspired by God. If we do not agree with him, we do not agree with God. He's not God. I agree with God.

Another lame excuse. We have been given Scripture for doctrine (2 Tim 3:16,17) and I have presented the proper Scriptures in their proper contexts. As for putting others on "ignore", it simply shows that you are incapable of handling the truth.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yep. Once again you pull out one verse, that might say what you're saying, but ignore the context. The context remains the same. All of Romans 1-7 is the 1001 ways man tried to get right with God, and all 1001 ways he failed. Half way into Romans 8 to somewhere in Romans 10, it's about what GOD did about it. And the final chapters is what we should do with this information. Meanwhile, you're busy convinced you found another way.

Other reason I rarely respond to you. You're in this to prove your point, not to find out who God is.

You talk easily about believing. You ignore the obvious. WHO are we believing in -- a god we can take or the only God there is?

I didn't pull out just one verse . . . Does Romans 1-7 in any way make null and void the scriptures I quoted? It is all still the same . . . I pulled out verses that don't mean what I think they mean but no explanation as to where my understanding in those verses are wrong.

The whole scope of scripture is what God did about our failure . . . the coming Messiah, the birth of the Messiah, the death of the Messiah and the resurrection of the Messiah which constitutes the gospel of our salvation.

You don't respond to me because I am here to prove MY point? . . . Do you not do the same? . . . As for that, aren't we all, in one way or another, here to prove what we believe?

I have no problem knowing who God is . . . I talk easily about believing???? It seems God also talks a lot about believing . . 289 times in the OT . . . 263 times in the NT; [which doesn't even touch on the word "faith" which is the same Greek word as "belief"] Heck - Abraham was accounted righteous because he believed God! Isn't it funny that we are also accounted righteous through belief in God and Jesus Christ, the one He sent. "Do not let your hearts be trouble. You believe in God; believe also in me." . . . "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." [sounds a little like Eph. 1:13,14] Oh goodness, there I go again trying to prove MY point and I am sure I have the wrong understanding of those verses.

WHO are we believing in? A God in whom we can trust because he is trustworthy and He is faithful and just and because we can be assured of His promise of eternal life through belief in Jesus Christ which He has stated repeatedly . . . . not just MY point.

 

[Snoozy]

do u have to choose between calvinism and arminianism tho?

some points are wrong some points are right. thats how i see it in the bible

 

[trofimus]

I find the textus receptus to be correct

I wonder how you do that. I myself were studying this issue for months, possibly years and I came to conclusion there is almost no basis that the TR would be "the correct" compilation.

Byzantine text? Maybe, if we fall into the "majority preservers truth" theory.

Nestlé Aland critical text? Maybe, if we fall into the "oldest sources, best witnesses" theory.

Textus Receptus? There is no reason or theory on which to base its superiority.

 

[notmyown]

what was the Lord Jesus doing on the cross? if we can answer that question, it would help.

was He actually propitiating the wrath of God for sinners? in other words, was it a r-e-a-l sacrifice?

was payment made?