The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Snoozy]

Scripture itself can be complicated Snoozy.. do you understand everything it teaches? Did you not have someone explain it to you, either verbally or in Writing? Yes I understand that no one can understand scripture without the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that every topic is as easy to understand as others? Nor does it mean men with their own single translation, that's how we end up with cults.

2 Peter 3:16

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


You say if you just pick up the bible you don't need the doctrines of grace - It would be more correct to say that when you read the scriptures from Gen to Rev the Doctrines of Grace jump from every page!

yes. i have learned from people u are right. and some verses are hard yes.
i just said that often times we just make it more complicated by more books. like the trinity is this huge theological nightmare people debate over. when the bible uses simple language to describe the Godhead.
now we have creeds like begotten not made and stuff which is no where in the bible. we talk about persons and essences and all that stuff. its just weird.
i like how simply the bible puts it.

that was kind of the point of my message when johny mentioned the lack of arminian books and how calvinists have books. its cause the two wills and two decrees and two of everything is so difficult to understand that u need books longer than the bible to get it.

i dont know how long the potter's freedom is but if its not that long i'll probably read it since im kinda interested in this topic. i think both sides are wrong on some things and right on others.

but depleted (a fellow chatter here) posted one of those soteriology charts and what i believe lined up with the calvinist one, which is crazy cause i never considered myself a calvinist.

 

[phil36]

i dont know how long the potter's freedom is but if its not that long i'll probably read it since im kinda interested in this topic. i think both sides are wrong on some things and right on others.

but depleted (a fellow chatter here) posted one of those soteriology charts and what i believe lined up with the calvinist one, which is crazy cause i never considered myself a calvinist.

Potters freedom (White) is a good book. I don't think it was that long and is written in a popular vein (not academic), You have to remember that this book is a polemic against Geisler (excellent none the less).

Probably a better book to grasp what reformed theology is would be 'What is reformed theology' by RC Sproul. Its easier to understand.

 

[Magenta]

God is the only One who has free will.

God is constrained by His nature.

 

[Snoozy]

God is constrained by His nature.

as are we..

 

[phil36]

God is constrained by His nature.

Man is constrained by his own nature..your either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ. there is no other description in scripture.

So your either dead or alive.

 

[notuptome]

So everyone who hears has faith? Nope. We have something made aware to us to have faith in but simply being aware does not give us faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of your own doing, it is the gift of God.

Jesus is the Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. Some men turn from the light and retreat back into the darkness but Christ has offered to all the same light to be saved.

Did Adam have a choice to sin? Did Cain have a choice to accept the offering God provided? Every man sins because he chooses to sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Snoozy]

Jesus is the Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. Some men turn from the light and retreat back into the darkness but Christ has offered to all the same light to be saved.

Did Adam have a choice to sin? Did Cain have a choice to accept the offering God provided? Every man sins because he chooses to sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

they agree that everyone chooses to sin. man acts according to his nature. they just said it two pages ago man

 

[notuptome]

Bupkis! My story is the familiar one. I went to sleep as a nonbeliever and woke up his! Same story as my husband. Same story as most folks I know. The only other story is it happened during the day, but always with a mind on anything but the Lord.

And now you're taking this to God owes you, because you heard, you believed, you accepted the tattoo, and you praised him.

Huh? Got saved in your sleep?

I'm nosy, so I'm going to ask...
Which is is:
Bad comprehension skills?
Bad memory?
Or you just like to twist other peoples' words to further your agenda?

Just attempting to sort out the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

they agree that everyone chooses to sin. man acts according to his nature. they just said it two pages ago man

Then man must act according to the word of God.

According to the Calvinist view of limited atonement the sinner is unable to be saved if he is not elect. This is in concert with total depravity where man is unable to respond to the gospel unless he is elect.

This is not consistent with Gods offer of grace through the vicarious atonement of Christ as described in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Magenta]

as are we..

Exactly. I am glad you agree

 

[Magenta]

Man is constrained by his own nature..your either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ. there is no other description in scripture.

So your either dead or alive.

I cannot make out the point of your response in relation to mine. Man is constrained by his nature, and God is constrained by His nature. Man lives whether they are slaves to sin or not, until the judgment. Those not found in Christ pass into the second death, but what has that got to do with the fact that it is impossible for God to lie?

 

[phil36]

I cannot make out the point of your response in relation to mine. Man is constrained by his nature, and God is constrained by His nature. Man lives whether they are slaves to sin or not, until the judgment. Those not found in Christ pass into the second death, but what has that got to do with the fact that it is impossible for God to lie?

Those who are dead cannot raise themselves. They cannot hear nor see they are spiritually dead and love their sin and even love to see others sin. No man will ever seek God. It is only by God sovereignly renewing the mans heart and open His eyes.

God opens the eyes and renews the hearts..the dead man plays no part in it until he see's... only and only then can he believe. This shows that yes the atonement is sufficient for all but,t is only efficacious to those whom God freely chooses.

We have to remember that God's will is NEVER constrained by mans, yet mans is by God's!

 

[notuptome]

Those who are dead cannot raise themselves. They cannot hear nor see they are spiritually dead and love their sin and even love to see others sin. No man will ever seek God. It is only by God sovereignly renewing the mans heart and open His eyes.

God opens the eyes and renews the hearts..the dead man plays no part in it until he see's... only and only then can he believe. This shows that yes the atonement is sufficient for all but,t is only efficacious to those whom God freely chooses.

We have to remember that God's will is NEVER constrained by mans, yet mans is by God's!

Partly true in that man cannot save himself. God is great in mercy and calls at the heart door of every man. John 3 Christ is the Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world.

Everyman must choose because that is part of the result of the fall in the garden. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge compels men to make the choice between good and evil. Adam choose to follow Eve and depart from God. Cain chose to turn his back on the sin offering God provided. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring every man to confront the righteousness of God the sinfulness of man and Gods judgment on sin. John 16:8-11.

Does your Calvinism align with the scriptures? If it denies man's God given responsibility to choose then perhaps not. It would rob God of the glory He desires by lessening the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

Those who are dead cannot raise themselves. They cannot hear nor see they are spiritually dead and love their sin and even love to see others sin. No man will ever seek God. It is only by God sovereignly renewing the mans heart and open His eyes.

God opens the eyes and renews the hearts..the dead man plays no part in it until he see's... only and only then can he believe. This shows that yes the atonement is sufficient for all but,t is only efficacious to those whom God freely chooses.

We have to remember that God's will is NEVER constrained by mans, yet mans is by God's!

Luke 7:30) But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

 

[phil36]

Partly true in that man cannot save himself. God is great in mercy and calls at the heart door of every man. John 3 Christ is the Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world.

Everyman must choose because that is part of the result of the fall in the garden. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge compels men to make the choice between good and evil. Adam choose to follow Eve and depart from God. Cain chose to turn his back on the sin offering God provided. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring every man to confront the righteousness of God the sinfulness of man and Gods judgment on sin. John 16:8-11.

Does your Calvinism align with the scriptures? If it denies man's God given responsibility to choose then perhaps not. It would rob God of the glory He desires by lessening the sacrifice of His Only Begotten Son.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi roger,

Yes Christ is the light of the world, but you see we need to take into account all of what scripture says, and this comes right after 'for God so loved the world':

[FONT=&quot]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed

[/FONT]So the above answers your first paragraph.

Regarding your second paragraph. All make a choice.. a real valid choice. But what does scripture teach us.. Mankind desires and loves his darkness. Man hates the light and WILL not come into it!!!! Jesus' words not mine!


regarding your last sentence in the second paragraph.. All men already know something about God (read Romans 1 and 2). And then re-read John chapter 3. Oh and BTW John 16:8-11 does not say the Holy Spirit will bring EVERY man to confront the righteousness of God. What it does say is that the Holy Spirit will prove the world wrong. there's a huge difference Roger.


Your last paragraph is unanswerable as it doesn't describe Calvinism.. I don't know what you think it describes.

 

[phil36]

Luke 7:30) But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Yep they certainly rejected God's ways for them.. I think it be very foolish to think man constrains God. Hopefully you don't believe your will constrains Gods?

 

[Snoozy]

Yep they certainly rejected God's ways for them.. I think it be very foolish to think man constrains God. Hopefully you don't believe your will constrains Gods?

but calvinists say God's will cannot be resisted? and Holy Spirit? yet in acts 7:51 and luke 7:30 that happens.
i think thats that. but the answer is some complicated stuff for sure. there is no way they havent been asked this before. so as i notice calvinists have two of everything two wills two decrees two callings. so this is again one of them isnt it? one councel of God that pharisees can reject, but the other council that they cant resist? is that right?

if i hadnt of watched that sermon i would never know about the two wills. so i would of just read those verses and concluded God's will can be resisted.

 

[MarcR]

We said.

Of course the arminian view of salvation has 'I' as the decider if the cross actually paid for my 'I' sins. The logical conclusion of the arminian view is that of universalism. That said they have to do some jiggery pokery to make it not universalism.

All views limit the atonement. Biblically the atonement was as Gandpa pointed out was sufficient and to achieve its aim, it was efficacious to His sheep. The Arminians limit the atonement based on the dead (in sin) man's decision. Man decides the outcome of redemptive His-story.

Well said! However there is a position between Arminianism and Limited Atonement.

God's omniscience requires that God knew before He created Adam that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit.

We are told in passed in 2 Pe 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV


We know from Rv 19:6
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
KJV
That God is able to order and arrange things according to His will.

What then can explain why omnipotent God would allow His will, as expressed in 2 Pe 3:9, to be thwarted?

The only explanation that makes any sense Is that God wants something else more than He desires that all should come to repentance; which could not be possible if all were caused to come to repentance.

We see in Mt 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
KJV

That God places great importance on man having capacity to love. If man did not have the capacity to love, neither of the two primary commandments would have any meaning.

It is the nature of love that love cannot be programmed and must be volitional.

God's desire for a creature with the capacity to Love required that He accept a creature with the capacity to spurn and reject love. Even God's omnipotence can not overcome an inherent contradiction. Nothing can be white while it is black' or true while it is false.

God allows man to have the capacity to sin in order that he might also have the capacity to love.


Jesus took upon Himself the consequence of all men's and all women's sin in order that every person would once again have the capacity to receive and return God's love or reject it for him/her self.

God, being indeed sovereign, can base His election of who will be saved on any criteria of His choice; or even on His whim.

I believe that God has chosen to base His election on how each person responds to what Jesus has done for him or her.

A person cannot will himself/herself saved without accepting Jesus claims of Lordship (Ownership) over his/her life.

 

[phil36]

but calvinists say God's will cannot be resisted? and Holy Spirit? yet in acts 7:51 and luke 7:30 that happens.
i think thats that. but the answer is some complicated stuff for sure. there is no way they havent been asked this before. so as i notice calvinists have two of everything two wills two decrees two callings. so this is again one of them isnt it? one councel of God that pharisees can reject, but the other council that they cant resist? is that right?

Gods effectual call cannot be resisted. It has to be effectual or else no man would ever be united to Christ. cf John 6:44; Philippians 2:13.

But God calls all men to repent, men don't, so God leaves them to it (read Romans 1 and 2), that is different from saying man constrains God! Plus John 3:19, right after 'for God so loved the world'.

We see the difference in the general call and the effectual call in the space of one short verse:

Matt 22:14 For many are called but few are chosen.

 

[trofimus]

but calvinists say God's will cannot be resisted? yet in acts 7:51 and luke 7:30 that happens.

You are asking like in the 2nd century.

Church already answered that. There are various kinds of will. Google it.

People, do your homework first! Do not invent everything from zero point.