Women in Ministry

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#21
I have written extensively on this, using the Greek. I am a pastor, and I have been a chaplain. I preach and teach in my church, although I am not an elder. We have women elders, and they do a fine job.

I think you are looking for something that positively says women can be elders. I don't think there is anything like that. However, in 1 Timothy 3, there is a problem with the translations.

"Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect." 1 Tim. 3:11 NET

The issue causing the problem, is that the same word for "wife" can also be "woman" in Greek. That is the word gunaikas, or
γυναῖκας. Here is the Greek:

"
γυναῖκας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek

There is no pronoun "their" in the passage at all. It just says, "women, like wise," or "wives, likewise."

So, here is another way you can say it:

"
In the same way, the womenare to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV

So, is Timothy talking to women separately who are elders/deacons, or is he talking to "wives"? I think for me, the fact that Paul talks about ministry with women, that he mentioned Prisca's name twice before her husband Apollo, meaning she was more important, and the fact that the Bible talks about women in authority like Deborah, Esther who saved her people, thus preserving the line from which the Messiah would come, the way Matthew, a Jew, includes 4 women in his genealogy of Jesus, the prophetic daughters of Phillip (Acts 21:9) and big exegetical issues with verses like 1 Tim. 2:12 means that God uses anyone who is willing, for ministry, and that includes being elders.

"
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." 1 Cor. 14:34

Here is another verse which is wrongly interpreted. Many people think the above verse confirms women should not speak in church, as the law says. But what law? There is no such law. So, is Paul quoting someone, with reference to women who were out of hand? Because, there simply is no such law, and I believe that Paul was inspired. But, since Corinthians was a series of letters Paul wrote to the church in Corinth,replying to some issues there, it is most possible Paul was quoting them, and then showing them that women who were disturbing the congregation, maybe shouting out, needed to go home to ask their husbands. Perhaps he was even being sarcastic? "As the law says" is really a sign that something else is going on here.

And do remember, women were largely uneducated, and the rich women were sheltered, and in Corinth, which was a port town, many of the poorer women may have been temple prositutes. In fact, to "corinthianize" meant to be promiscuous. So, those women, certainly were not capable of leading a congregation, at least in the early years after the church was started.

As an eglatarian, I have read many books, and written papers on women in ministry with my viewpoint being that women can most certainly be in ministry. When Paul wrote Gal. 3:28, he wanted to make it clear that neither genes nor social standing make one better in the Kingdom of God.

"
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28


And as for those people who get into this fixed order, that men are above women, it is really grasping at straws, considering that order was established after the Fall. Since Christ redeemed us from the fall, clearly, even a Gentile, woman slave was as good as any male with impeccable credentials, there is no such order for ministry. (Of course, women should submit to their husbands!)


PS If you want me to dig out my information on 1 Tim. 2:12, let me know.

You murdered the context of Gal 3:28.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Nothing there about offices in the church. Only equal status as children of God.

Just because you do something does not make it biblically sound from a doctrinal perspective.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,451
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#22
Try and use the whole Bible, instead of just throwing things in out of context. Eve was not even there when God told Adam not to eat of the Tree. She had not been created. So, Adam certainly should take the blame for not explaining things to her clearly, and directly disobeying a command of God, who told him not to eat of the Tree.
Angela,

I am using the whole Bible and it is God -- not man -- that connects Eve to this issue of women in spiritual leadership.

What you have quoted from Romans clearly makes Adam responsible to bringing the curse of sin and death upon humanity. But that is not the context of what is being discussed here. So let's go to the relevant passage ( 1 Timothy 2:9-15):

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.


11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[meaning all Christian women]


12
But I suffer [allow] not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.


14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved [work out her salvation] in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1. Paul is writing by Divine inspiration so when he says "I" it means that God speaks to us through him.


2. "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection" corresponds to 1 Cor 14:24 -- Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

3. "...to be under obedience..." as saith also the Law is a reference to the Torah,where we read in Gen 3:16 "...and thy desire
shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

4. So it is God who says to all Christians in all ages:

(a) I do not allow a woman to teach [within the assembly]

(b) I do not allow women to wrongfully take authority over the men [within the assembly]

(c) I command women to be in silence [within the assemblies]

(d) The first rationale for these rulings is that Adam was first formed then Eve (meaning that the woman was made for the man, not the man for the woman as stated in 1 Cor 11:9)

(e) The second rationale for these rulings is that the woman was deceived by Satan and was thus in the transgression (disobedience). Eve knew what God had commanded Adam (Gen 3:2,3) but she sinned wilfully and was wilfully deceived. Adam was not deceived and he also sinned wilfully, but the impact of Eve's disobedience affected him and the human race.

Now whatever we may think about this humanistically, the fact is that this is what is revealed in the Word of God, and therefore all Christians must bow to the authority of the Word.
 
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Dec 12, 2013
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#23
Eve was not following Adam she was walking beside him.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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#24
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
The curse has been reversed. ;)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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#26
If that were true no one would die anymore ;)

AND women would not give men new names when they were having a baby HAHAH cough cough
Eternal life Dcon. Even those who reject Him will live forever too. Not a pleasant thought.

And i cant answer the second one. Touché. Lol
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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#27
You murdered the context of Gal 3:28.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Nothing there about offices in the church. Only equal status as children of God.

Just because you do something does not make it biblically sound from a doctrinal perspective.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I thought it to be a brilliant post!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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#29
well, one might be as the tv program that's so popular. Something like the walking ????

The other....I can't imagine the things that we will have, though some say they have seen it. Living as full of life as possible?

How do you define it Joe?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,692
13,383
113
#30
...
1. Paul is writing by Divine inspiration so when he says "I" it means that God speaks to us through him.


2. "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection" corresponds to 1 Cor 14:24 -- Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

3. "...to be under obedience..." as saith also the Law is a reference to the Torah,where we read in Gen 3:16 "...and thy desire
shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

4. So it is God who says to all Christians in all ages:

(a) I do not allow a woman to teach [within the assembly]

(b) I do not allow women to wrongfully take authority over the men [within the assembly]

(c) I command women to be in silence [within the assemblies]

(d) The first rationale for these rulings is that Adam was first formed then Eve (meaning that the woman was made for the man, not the man for the woman as stated in 1 Cor 11:9)

(e) The second rationale for these rulings is that the woman was deceived by Satan and was thus in the transgression (disobedience). Eve knew what God had commanded Adam (Gen 3:2,3) but she sinned wilfully and was wilfully deceived. Adam was not deceived and he also sinned wilfully, but the impact of Eve's disobedience affected him and the human race.

Now whatever we may think about this humanistically, the fact is that this is what is revealed in the Word of God, and therefore all Christians must bow to the authority of the Word.
There is no logical causal connection between "for Adam was formed first" and "I suffer not a woman to teach or to usurp authority over a man". It's like saying, "It isn't going to rain today, for I like cheese." It's a non sequitur, unless Paul is referencing a different issue that Timothy was dealing with. I believe he is; that of pagan teachings that Eve was formed first, that tracing genealogies back to Eve had merit, that man was made for woman, and that the teachers of such (female) were available for "other services" for their male students (a legitimate interpretation of "authentein" - "usurp authority" in the KJV). Women who teach things like that certainly should not be allowed to teach in the Christian assembly!

There is no clear connection or reference to 1 Corinthians 14.

There is no law in the OT commanding silence for women. The church did not exist in the OT, so it is unlikely that an OT law referencing the assembly would be relevant anyway. There are laws excluding certain people from the Tabernacle; those don't apply to the Christian ekklesia.

If the deception of a single woman restricts all women from leading in the assembly, how much more should the sin of a single man restrict all men from such service! Again, it doesn't make sense.

Claiming "this is what is revealed in the Word of God" isn't good enough. There is a principle of hermeneutics that needs to be considered here: "If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense." The trouble is that "the plain sense" as you have presented it doesn't make sense.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
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#31
There is no logical causal connection between "for Adam was formed first" and "I suffer not a woman to teach or to usurp authority over a man". It's like saying, "It isn't going to rain today, for I like cheese." It's a non sequitur, unless Paul is referencing a different issue that Timothy was dealing with. I believe he is; that of pagan teachings that Eve was formed first, that tracing genealogies back to Eve had merit, that man was made for woman, and that the teachers of such (female) were available for "other services" for their male students (a legitimate interpretation of "authentein" - "usurp authority" in the KJV). Women who teach things like that certainly should not be allowed to teach in the Christian assembly!

There is no clear connection or reference to 1 Corinthians 14.

There is no law in the OT commanding silence for women. The church did not exist in the OT, so it is unlikely that an OT law referencing the assembly would be relevant anyway. There are laws excluding certain people from the Tabernacle; those don't apply to the Christian ekklesia.

If the deception of a single woman restricts all women from leading in the assembly, how much more should the sin of a single man restrict all men from such service! Again, it doesn't make sense.

Claiming "this is what is revealed in the Word of God" isn't good enough. There is a principle of hermeneutics that needs to be considered here: "If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense." The trouble is that "the plain sense" as you have presented it doesn't make sense.
You all never heard that women were interrupting the speaker with questions? That some were challenging the speaker at times?

So Paul is dealing with a specific problem.

I dont believe that a woman should rule over her husband. Or to challenge his authority. There are gentle ways to address problems and if a man is loving her as Jesus loves His own body, am sure there would be no problem.

But, as I said, Paul is addressing that specific happening. Not making rules.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#32
I thought it to be a brilliant post!
Speaks volumes.

Women in ministry is not in Gal 3:28.

Gods order has always been man first and woman to follow. There are tons of things women can do and do well in ministry just not ahead of men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#33
Deborah and Pricilla, etc., whom our Father has put inside of His Holy Scriptures,
as our 'examples',

they have given me, Joanna, great and wonderful, and powerful confidence that
NO MAN or WOMAN on this earth can ever take-away from my Spirit/heart and Bond/Connection,
with my Holy Saviour'...

this has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of 'ruling-over', quite the contrary, it is about the
equality that our Father has with those who Love and Serve Him with all of their hearts,,.
 
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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,692
13,383
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#34
Speaks volumes.

Women in ministry is not in Gal 3:28.

Gods order has always been man first and woman to follow. There are tons of things women can do and do well in ministry just not ahead of men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Maybe you have a history with stonesoffire which explains it, but "Speaks volumes" seems pretty snarky and unnecessary.

"But not ahead of men" could be interpreted many different ways, most of them negative. Perhaps you'd care to unpack it so we can avoid the speculation?
 
Nov 6, 2017
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#35
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#36
my Husband has and always will be the 'head of our walk with our Saviour'...
it's Yeshua's Order, and nothing can ever change this wonderful confidence that
He has given to the women that He has bound together in real Holy Matramony.,..

on the other hand, when we witness the astounding things that are happening in this
fallen-world at this time of our lives, it seems that 'satan' has got the upper hand!
 
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JairCrawford

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2017
107
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#37
What's even more puzzling to me is the verse a little bit further that says that the women will be "saved through the childbearing".

Like, what the heck is that supposed to mean, Paul? Lol
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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#38
Maybe you have a history with stonesoffire which explains it, but "Speaks volumes" seems pretty snarky and unnecessary.

"But not ahead of men" could be interpreted many different ways, most of them negative. Perhaps you'd care to unpack it so we can avoid the speculation?
I think I offended him in this matter. I seem to be good at doing this. So I apologize Roger. I said that in jest, and maybe a bit of poking fun at you. I was wrong.

Angela is very well learned though, and I admire her grip on the Greek language. My love is the Hebrew though.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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#39
What's even more puzzling to me is the verse a little bit further that says that the women will be "saved through the childbearing".

Like, what the heck is that supposed to mean, Paul? Lol
This is a new thought, or maybe just to me.

Ellicott:

This is apparently the obvious meaning of the Apostle's words--all this lies on the surface--but beneath all this the reverent reader can hardly fail to see another and deeper reference (the presence of the article, "through thechildbearing," gives us the clue)--"she shall be saved by THE childbearing" (the Incarnation) by the relation in which woman stood to the Messiah, in consequence of the primal prophecy that her seed (not man's) should bruise the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15), the peculiar function of her sex, from its relation to her Saviour, "shall be the medium of her salvation." (See Bishop Ellicott, in loco.)

If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.--But let no one think that the true saintly woman, painted with such matchless skill by St. Paul, satisfies the conditions of her life by merely fulfilling the duties of a mother.

She must besides, if she would win her crown, hold fast to the Master's well-known teaching, which enjoins on all His own disciples, men as well as women, faith and love, holiness and modesty. The last word, "modesty," or discretion, or sobriety (all poor renderings of the Greek sophrosune, which includes, besides, the idea of a fight with and a victory over self), brings back the thoughts to the beautiful Pauline conception of a true woman, who wins her sweet and weighty power in the world by self-effacement.


This makes great sense to me. What do you think?