An Increase of Cessationists and Legalists (CC)
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Thank you stonesoffire for understanding that divisiveness is already at an all time high, and no, I am not trying to sow discord. Rather, I was making an observation, and also alerting, if you will, people on the other side of the debate of the increased activity of Cessationists and Legalists.
This means that people viewing these forums, guests, will be reading and feeding off of their posts, and for this reason, the other side of the debate should be presenting the truth proactively and with meekness and respect. In this way the guests are not fed what we might consider to be false doctrine, and can make an informed decision.
This means that people viewing these forums, guests, will be reading and feeding off of their posts, and for this reason, the other side of the debate should be presenting the truth proactively and with meekness and respect. In this way the guests are not fed what we might consider to be false doctrine, and can make an informed decision.
Not going to pick out any certain post to reply to. Just going to "Spit it out", so to speak!
There are 2 (count 'em TWO), resurrections being argued over and about! Neither of which happens during this currentlife in flesh. At least, that's what "the world", and enemies of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, would want, and strive for EVERY believer to accept as "CARVED In Stone gospel!" When, in (a) reality, this "carving", is only on, and in those "hearts of stone", of believers, whose hearts, and more correctly, pieces, or parts, of ones' hearts, that havenot been healed into a "heart of flesh!"
There are 2 (count 'em TWO), resurrections being argued over and about! Neither of which happens during this currentlife in flesh. At least, that's what "the world", and enemies of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, would want, and strive for EVERY believer to accept as "CARVED In Stone gospel!" When, in (a) reality, this "carving", is only on, and in those "hearts of stone", of believers, whose hearts, and more correctly, pieces, or parts, of ones' hearts, that havenot been healed into a "heart of flesh!"
Believers have new hearts. Its the better things that accompanies salvation .
He informs us.. I will create a new spirit, I will create new heart. I will cause you to walk in my commandments. , I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.(the first resurrection)
It is God who can make our hearts soft .
Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
The first resurrection came just as he prophesied it would . The second and final the last day.
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Mat 27:50
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Still encouraging divisiveness. You are making a call for others to engage more "debate" to push your idea of truth.
Meanwhile the "other" side says you are teaching false doctrine. And the merry go round of the BDF continues its legalism and atrocities.
When people read the BDF they either engage, becoming part of the problem, or they run screaming in terror. Never do i hear people changing your minds.
And hiding behind "it already exists" doesn't negate the fact that you are encouraging division. The BDF is way more destructive than useful. The only people not seeing that are the ones too busy trying to be right and using God as their justification for their ungodly behavior.
Whether killing sinners or tearing people down verbally online the mentality is the same.
Meanwhile the "other" side says you are teaching false doctrine. And the merry go round of the BDF continues its legalism and atrocities.
When people read the BDF they either engage, becoming part of the problem, or they run screaming in terror. Never do i hear people changing your minds.
And hiding behind "it already exists" doesn't negate the fact that you are encouraging division. The BDF is way more destructive than useful. The only people not seeing that are the ones too busy trying to be right and using God as their justification for their ungodly behavior.
Whether killing sinners or tearing people down verbally online the mentality is the same.
It doesn't need encouragement, its already there. You are telling me that I am pouring water in a glass that is already full. Its not doing anything. I am encouraging discussion, and a defense of the truth in a manner that is gentle and respectful for the sake of viewers.
If all you saw on the forums were posts denying the deity of Christ, post after post, I am sure you too would be vocal and up in arms encouraging others to take a stand for the truth so that people are not led astray. This is along those same lines. It is not encouraging divisiveness as you say, but a defense of the Gospel and sound doctrine.
If all you saw on the forums were posts denying the deity of Christ, post after post, I am sure you too would be vocal and up in arms encouraging others to take a stand for the truth so that people are not led astray. This is along those same lines. It is not encouraging divisiveness as you say, but a defense of the Gospel and sound doctrine.
If this were really true then the Holy Spirit would not have said (through David) regarding Scripture: The LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT converting the soul (Ps 19:7).
Both the Old and the New Covenants have laws, injunctions, and commandments. But Christians are being fed a false Gospel and a false concept of Legalism, by people who should know better. It is one thing to falsely believe that one can be justified by the works of the Law. It is quite another thing to promote the false idea that Christians do not need rules, regulations, laws, and standards based upon God's requirement for them to be holy. While we depend upon the Holy Spirit to make us holy, the Holy Spirit Himself tells us to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12). So we examine the things of this world -- ungodliness and worldly lusts -- and determine to avoid them, as well as the works of darkness.
Both the Old and the New Covenants have laws, injunctions, and commandments. But Christians are being fed a false Gospel and a false concept of Legalism, by people who should know better. It is one thing to falsely believe that one can be justified by the works of the Law. It is quite another thing to promote the false idea that Christians do not need rules, regulations, laws, and standards based upon God's requirement for them to be holy. While we depend upon the Holy Spirit to make us holy, the Holy Spirit Himself tells us to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12). So we examine the things of this world -- ungodliness and worldly lusts -- and determine to avoid them, as well as the works of darkness.
P
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
I wonder how the theologians deal with this verse?
To be quite honest I keep the word of God in it's simplest form. This doctrine, that doctrine, hyper grace, name it claim it, my gosh are we still eating of the tree of good and evil? Do we suppose that we should know God and how he works?
Imo the book of job should teach us about the sovereignty of the Lord. Jesus said if you seen me you've seen the father yet when he healed , fed, read, or raised the dead, he did it in a variety of ways, but by the same spirit. Scripture points out that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
We are called to obey Christ's commandments and the leading of the holy spirit. If there are no gifts then where does the holy spirit lead us to do?
If we become legalists then who is left to judge?
I wonder how the theologians deal with this verse?
To be quite honest I keep the word of God in it's simplest form. This doctrine, that doctrine, hyper grace, name it claim it, my gosh are we still eating of the tree of good and evil? Do we suppose that we should know God and how he works?
Imo the book of job should teach us about the sovereignty of the Lord. Jesus said if you seen me you've seen the father yet when he healed , fed, read, or raised the dead, he did it in a variety of ways, but by the same spirit. Scripture points out that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
We are called to obey Christ's commandments and the leading of the holy spirit. If there are no gifts then where does the holy spirit lead us to do?
If we become legalists then who is left to judge?
I can attest to what that old evangelist said. Except God called me at least 3 times, that I can vividly recall (perhaps more), over a 20-35 year period (I think. Maybe longer, maybe shorter), before "anger issues" I had, in regards to my parents, and God, concerning "that old time religion", had subsided somewhat, before I answered the phone. And, it wasn't a very long message either. "Are ya ready yet?" And, thinking about it just now? It wasn't that I wasn't saved, or a believer, as I was baptized, at 13. It was more of a love for God, and his love for me, that had grown inside of me, that I hadn't seen, in any of the churches we had gone to. Fast forward some some 4 er 5 years, and Ma n Pa said, I was old enough to not go to church any longer, if I didn't want to, or I could go to another church, if I wanted to. I quit going to church altogether, and wanted to go out and do some research "in the world", and, see, and/or experience it. As to what kind, or type of love "people of the world", were experiencing, and later, the why they, for the far larger part, rejected Jesus out right, and the God of Israel. Some, would mention Jesus, and/or God in passing, sometimes, I grew to be friends with some of these people. Not like the hypocrites, I had seen in church. Righteous "looking", and acting, but, legalistic, and not very deep. More worldly minded, I guess one could call 'em, but, not very spiritually minded at all!
Anyway, unlike, that old evangelist, I don't believe, least in my case, as He told me "My WORD doesn't go out from Me, and come back void!", He would have ever stopped "ringing my phone."
Anyway, unlike, that old evangelist, I don't believe, least in my case, as He told me "My WORD doesn't go out from Me, and come back void!", He would have ever stopped "ringing my phone."
H
That's quite the accusation Sis, and a common one, but nonetheless, it is untrue. No cessationist denies the power of the Holy Spirit. For the record, one cannot have or know the Spirit without doctrine about who he is, his attributes &c.
All toes have been missed!
All toes have been missed!
Hence cease.
They didnt cease, they just need to.
From that starting place,cessationist doctrine proceeds.
The grand canyon leap doesnt evolve. We are confronted with the fateful leap FIRST,then "taught" how to alighn verses to fit the supposed ceased gifts.
No evidence of such cessation,just men covering their backslidden state.
No need to read the book of acts or the great commission. It all ceased.
( yeah, in their minds)
I liked your post, Waggles, but I don't agree that Cessationists wouldn't be part of the few. The unity is in the Cross, and as Paul wrote, the knowledge of Him.
Pentecost is for service. I do believe there are those who may not think the gifts are for today, but the anointing comes upon them while preaching. There would be other gifts working than tongues.
Pentecost is for service. I do believe there are those who may not think the gifts are for today, but the anointing comes upon them while preaching. There would be other gifts working than tongues.
Is this in any way unethical?
As a Christian, is it unethical to speak for your convictions, and ask others to do the same?
I disagree with Ben's theological position on charismatic gifts, and he KNOWS I disagree.
But he's still a brother in the Lord, and we get along just fine.
This is a debate forum.
If Ben wants to debate, then he has every right to debate.
If you think his positions are wrong, then you have every right to say so, and prove him wrong.
But if Ben believes his positions are right, and he wants other like-minded people to speak up... is that unethical?
It isn't like he's some rabid atheist, or a voodoo priest, or a cult leader.
He's a Christian brother who has strong views with which I disagree.
So what.
So what.
Debate the issues.
Deal with it.
OPTIONS:
1. If you disagree with someone, stand up like a man, and use sound arguments, and prove him wrong.
2. If you don't feel like debating, then don't.
3. If you're tired of looking at someone's posts, then put him on ignore.
4. If you think the person's doctrine is so horrible it's leading people astray... then spend more time in prayer.
5. If you're too frustrated to do anything above... go take a break.
NON OPTIONS:
1. Whining.
2. Whining.
3. Whining.
Just for the record, if Ben chooses to feel sorry for himself, and start whining, because he's outnumbered... I have no sympathy for him.
But if he wants to stand up like a man, and debate his convictions... good for him.
It seems that you want the Law to take on a role it is incapable of fulfilling. I realize that I am unlikely to persuade you; but I believe that is more your problem than mine.
Whether you choose to recognize it or not, your position is well within my definition of LEGALISM.
I don't doubt your sincerity, I just think you are mistaken.
Whether you choose to recognize it or not, your position is well within my definition of LEGALISM.
I don't doubt your sincerity, I just think you are mistaken.
I am a Cessationist, but don't feel a need to convince anyone of cessationism.. If someone believes in the continuationism of miraculous healings, speaking in tongues, or prophecy, I don't have a problem with it, but I just don't see it, so I don't believe it continued.
In regards to Legalism, I don't consider myself to fit that definition. I do however, have a problem with those who preach/teach to put the commandments on a shelf because they don't matter. Saved by grace through faith, yes, but trash the law in the process, no.. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Its amazing how simple Jesus said it, but how confusing we make it.
In regards to Legalism, I don't consider myself to fit that definition. I do however, have a problem with those who preach/teach to put the commandments on a shelf because they don't matter. Saved by grace through faith, yes, but trash the law in the process, no.. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Its amazing how simple Jesus said it, but how confusing we make it.