Women in Ministry

OneFaith · Nov 16, 2017

Punishment usually is not liked. But women sinned first, and men are granted leadership. The Bible says the qualifications of an elder includes being the husband (male) of one wife. It’s not because we can’t do it, it’s because the position has been taken from us and given to them. You just have to accept it.

But spiritually older women are to teach the spiritually younger women. And all Christians are priests in Christ, and called to share His gospel, but in the correct ways, not the ways specifically spoken against- such as over the men of the congregation.

OneFaith · Nov 17, 2017

JairCrawford said:

It means they won’t physically die, but God will spare their lives. Many women have died while giving birth.

MarcR · Nov 17, 2017

NT:4245

2. α term of rank or office; as such borne by, a. among the Jews, members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from the elderly men): Mt 16:21; 26:47,57,59 Rec.; 27:3,12,20,41; 28:12; Mk 8:31; 11:27; 14:43,53; 15:1; Lk 9:22; 20:1; 22:52; Jn 8:9; Ac 4:5,23; 6:12; 23:14; 24:1; with the addition of τοῦ Ισραήλ , Ac 4:8 R G; of Τῶν Ιουδαίων, Ac 25:15; of τοῦ λαοῦ, Mt 21:23; 26:3; 27:1.
β. those who in the separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice: Lk 7:3. (Cf. BB. DD., under the word Elder .) b. among Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches): Ac 11:30; 14:23; 15:2,4,6,22; 16:4; 21:18; 1 Ti 5:17,19; Tit 1:5; 2 Jn 1; 3 Jn 1; 1 Pe 5:1,5; with τῆς ἐκκλησίας added, Ac 20:17; Jas 5:14. That they did not differ at all from the ἐπίσκοποι bishops or overseers (as is acknowledged also by Jerome on Tit 1:5 (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Philippians, pp. 98 f, 229 f)) is evident from the fact that the two words are used indiscriminately, Ac 20:17,28; Tit 1:5,7, and that the duty of presbyters is described by the terms ἐπισκοπεῖν, 1 Pe 5:1 f, and ἐπισκοπή, Clement of Rome, 1 Cor.
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, PC Study Bible formatted Electronic Database. Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Basically Thayer is saying that the office of elder is equivalent to that of bishop.

1 Ti 3:2-7
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
KJV

Tit 1:5-9
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
KJV

This is what scripture has to say on the subject. Using my concordance I find no Scripture that lends itself to another interpretation.

SovereignGrace · Nov 17, 2017

beastslayer1970 said:

Eve also was not usurping Adam's authority in church, either.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 17, 2017

Dino246 said:

That's why I said "whatever we may think about this humanistically".

If we believe that (a) all Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:16,17), and (b) that all of Paul's epistles are called Scripture by Peter (2 Pet 3:15,16), then what was written in this epistle (including this portion) is Scripture.

Peter said that there were some things in Paul's epistles which were hard to understand, therefore there were unlearned and unstable people who were twisting these Scriptures unto their own destruction. So regardless of how humanly "illogical" this teaching appears, it is God's Word to Christians just like the rest of the New Testament.

BTW we could also say that God's plan of salvation is illogical since no human father would even consider sacrificing his son for reprobates and evildoers.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (Rom 5:7).

Nehemiah6 · Nov 17, 2017

OneFaith said:

It could also means that women work out their salvation through bearing and raising children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Women have an extremely important ministry within their homes, and Paul alludes to this in his epistles. He even admonishes young single widows to remarry for this (and other) reasons.

Hizikyah · Nov 17, 2017

So in the "Old Testament" women can be prophets speaking the words of YHWH directly from Him, but now they can not even speak in a congregation? I think if a person is really of YHWH let their voice be heard in all situations man or woman.

These are all female prophets;

Micah 6:4, "for I brought you up from the land of Mitsrayim, and I ransomed you from the house of bondage. And I sent Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam before you."

Judges 4:4, "And Deḇorah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappiḏoth, was ruling Yisra’ĕl at that time."

2 Kings 22:14, "Then Ḥilqiyahu the priest, and Aḥiqam, and Aḵbor, and Shaphan, and Asayah went to Ḥuldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tiqwah, son of Ḥarḥas, keeper of the wardrobe. Now she was dwelling in Yerushalayim in the Second Quarter. And they spoke with her.

Nehemiah 6:14, "My Elohim, remember Toḇiyah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and the prophetess No‛aḏyah and the rest of the prophets who would have made me afraid."

Isaiah 8:3, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. And יהוה said to me, “Call his name Mahĕr-Shalal-Ḥash-Baz;"

Luke 2:36, "And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,"

Acts 21:8-9, "And on the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and went into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this one had four maiden daughters who prophesied."

Innerfire89 · Nov 17, 2017

I think the real issue is feeling significant in your role, but think about the impact Christ can make with you. Scripture says older women should teach the younger how to be submissive to their husbands and love their children. Titus 2:3-5. That's strenghting the family unit, pretty important.

88 · Nov 17, 2017

jellyroll123 said:

Since we have gone to an elder led way of doing things, my church has had some hurt feelings. Mostly some of the ladies do not understand why women cannot be elders. I was one of those ladies. In my research, I have found nothing to support women as elders. As much as I don't like that, I can't argue.Can you show me in scripture where God wants women as elders? I know Deborah led Israel but what does that mean? Was she supposed to? Jesus had many disciples that were women, and deacons can be women.
This has stirred up some hurt feelings. Can you help me to see where women are to be elders?
All the research I do for both for and against leads my heart to only men as elders. I don't like it, or understand it, but I have come to accept it. What that means is, men are elders. What that doesn't mean is, it is a dictatorship, men don't have to listen to women, women are not equals, men can be rude or demeaning to women.
I can't say women should be elders just because it feels right to me. God's word is right and it doesn't matter what I feel.
Please help me understand it.
Thanks!
Christine

***Can Women Be Elders/? You have asked an interesting question----this may help...
[h=3]Can Women be Elders in the Church or Not? — Charisma Magazine[/h]

Johnny_B · Nov 17, 2017

jellyroll123 said:

I not sure, but I am hoping that you are saying that it is not a dictatorship, men need to listen to women, women are equal, men are not rude to women. I hope this is what you are saying. Because women don't have to submit to men, they only need to submit to their husband, not any man. They can listen to men, but do not have to submit to them. Any wise man would listen to what a women has to say, women see things that us men just do not see. The Lord made women from a rib or a bone that was in the middle of the body, a bone that was in the side of the man, it did not come from his foot to show man that he needs to be over a women and it was not from the head, that women should be over men.

As far as a man being rude to any women, that just show that he is a jurk, no more no less. If women want to learn they need to ask thier husband at home, it not good for a women to ask her husband a question in the Church setting. I believe it is because of the husbamnd does not have the answer he does not look like a dummy by not knowing the answer at the tine his women asks. If she asks at home he has time to research the question to answer he. If the women is not marries she should ask her dad, if her dad is not saved ask him any way maybe it is a way that the Lord can use to show him the Gospel if he looks to the Bible to get the answer for his daugther. Me personally I like it when my daughter asks me Bible question. Because if I do not know it I can resaerch the question to find the answer to rely it to her so that she can be built up.

It really upests me when some dude, thinks that women need to submit to him, as if he is the man. I have to show him that she does not need to submit to him and if she is single, I will tell him he needs to marry her of he wants hr to submit to him, because that is the only way it is goojng to happen. Some guys are just striaght knuckle heads and think that women are second class citizens that need to submit to men all the time, without being married is a total knuckle head jurk with an emphasis on total.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 17, 2017

Hizikyah said:

It is God who decides how His churches should be constituted and who should be in spiritual leadership. Even though prophetesses are mentioned (in a very few cases) God has given us very clear instructions as to who the elders should be and what they are responsible for. So if you believe the OT is the Word of God, then you must also believe that the NT is the Word of God, and that the New Covenant supersedes the Old. It is significant that the twelve apostles of the Lamb are all men. It is also significant that the Lord Jesus Christ is the MAN Christ Jesus.

The spiritual leadership of a church must be according to God's directives. If God forbids women from preaching, teaching, or taking authority over men within the assembly, that settles the matter. Otherwise we will be back to the time of the Judges and spiritual anarchy, where every man and woman does what is right in their own eyes.

Whatever may be the failings of the traditionalist churches (RCC, EOC, etc) one thing is very clear. They have consistently maintained (in the past) that women cannot take spiritual leadership in their churches, and in this they have followed Scripture, not the traditions of men.

Hizikyah · Nov 17, 2017

Hizikyah said:

Nehemiah6 said:

I agree we should saeek YHWH's Instructions, as I did not say everyone shouyld o what they think is right. We can see YHWH spoke through female prophets, as it is written, my view is thatif YHWH tells them to speak who can tell them not to? Now im not sayingevery woman (or man for that matter) that says "the Lord told me" is really getting a word from the Most High, but if YHWH truly gives them a message and tells them to share, they should.

OneFaith · Nov 17, 2017

Hizikyah said:

So in the "Old Testament" women can be prophets speaking the words of YHWH directly from Him, but now they can not even speak in a congregation? I think if a person is really of YHWH let their voice be heard in all situations man or woman.

These are all female prophets;

Micah 6:4, "for I brought you up from the land of Mitsrayim, and I ransomed you from the house of bondage. And I sent Mosheh, Aharon, and Miryam before you."

Judges 4:4, "And Deḇorah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappiḏoth, was ruling Yisra’ĕl at that time."

2 Kings 22:14, "Then Ḥilqiyahu the priest, and Aḥiqam, and Aḵbor, and Shaphan, and Asayah went to Ḥuldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum son of Tiqwah, son of Ḥarḥas, keeper of the wardrobe. Now she was dwelling in Yerushalayim in the Second Quarter. And they spoke with her.

Nehemiah 6:14, "My Elohim, remember Toḇiyah and Sanballat, according to these works of theirs, and the prophetess No‛aḏyah and the rest of the prophets who would have made me afraid."

Isaiah 8:3, "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. And יהוה said to me, “Call his name Mahĕr-Shalal-Ḥash-Baz;"

Luke 2:36, "And there was Ḥannah, a prophetess, a daughter of Penu’ĕl, of the tribe of Ashĕr. She was advanced in years, and had lived with a husband seven years from her maidenhood,"

Acts 21:8-9, "And on the next day we left and came to Caesarea, and went into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this one had four maiden daughters who prophesied."

Women can prophesy- to other women and non-Christians.

jellyroll123 · Nov 17, 2017

I have a new thought now.
[FONT=&quot] "[/FONT]Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.[FONT=&quot][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them. So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun![FONT=&quot] 2Cor. 5:14. What this scripture is saying Knowing Christ as the lord is what makes us equal there is no difference male or female we are one in Christ. cross-reference with this scripture "[/FONT]For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.[FONT=&quot][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you."[FONT=&quot] Galatians 3:26 It is the curse of sin that has separated us from God and separated us from God and we caused us to be under the curse of sin but Christ change all of that ALL in Christ, we have been made whole a new creation in Christ and as a church, we need to move in the area treating each other as equals. I the passages of Scripture that those who believe women are weaker don't understand the context "[/FONT]In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered." [FONT=&quot] 1peter 3:7 I hope this helps the paper I sent you in the past about women in leadership should help also.[/FONT]

dcontroversal · Nov 17, 2017

beastslayer1970 said:

Sure, before the fall.....and that does not change the verse that came AFTER she was created and they fell.......

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

notuptome · Nov 17, 2017

stonesoffire said:

Don't concern yourself about offending. I'm not worthy of offense. I'm only offended when the Lord is offended and you did not approach that in your post.

I respect Angela and was surprised she wrote what she wrote on Gal 3:28. Her scholarship is usually much better but she went out of context to proof text. I understand that many women have a vested bias in this subject.

You claim a love of the Hebrew so you should know that Hebrew teaching is that the man leads in things spiritual. There is no indication that anything was changed in this respect in the NT Gentile church. Women have been used of God but as an exception not as a rule.

Eph 4:11 God gifts or appoints pastors in the church. The church is in such a state of declension that it is no wonder women are striving to enter ministry. Sign of the times which the Lord said would come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

shrume · Nov 17, 2017

OneFaith said:

That's false.

These women prophesied to Paul.

Acts 21:
9) And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

shrume · Nov 17, 2017

notuptome said:

Don't concern yourself about offending. I'm not worthy of offense. I'm only offended when the Lord is offended and you did not approach that in your post.

I respect Angela and was surprised she wrote what she wrote on Gal 3:28. Her scholarship is usually much better but she went out of context to proof text. I understand that many women have a vested bias in this subject.

You claim a love of the Hebrew so you should know that Hebrew teaching is that the man leads in things spiritual. There is no indication that anything was changed in this respect in the NT Gentile church. Women have been used of God but as an exception not as a rule.

Eph 4:11 God gifts or appoints pastors in the church. The church is in such a state of declension that it is no wonder women are striving to enter ministry. Sign of the times which the Lord said would come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Lord is offended in your denigration of women.

loveme1 · Nov 17, 2017

I think to the letter John wrote..to the elect Lady.. and Deborah.. like stones said i agree if GOD calls pick up and be...

notuptome · Nov 17, 2017

shrume said:

Thanks judge. You are on the same level as the Pharisees.

Honor the word of God without respect to gender.

If you want a woman pastor help yourself. Just do not expect me to join you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

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