Grace alone or grace plus works?

[eternally-gratefull]

Phil 3: 5"concerning the law, a Pharisee"

A pharisee...

they had their own man made law...

according to their man made law Paul was blameless...

You have need to learn the elementary principles.

Phil 3: concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

is "persecuting the church" righteous?

you keep showing you understand in the passage is wrong.

he was a pharisee, he followed pharisee law, they m,ade their own law...

2 Kings 17:19, “Yehuḏah, also, did not guard the commands of יהוה their Strength, but walked in the laws of Yisra’yl which they made.”


Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

Paul said it not me, Argue the point with paul.

 

[Hizikyah]

Paul said it not me, Argue the point with paul.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."[/FONT]

 

[valiant]

we are not saved by being given grace. That is a secondary meaning of grace. We are saved by God's grace acting upon us. By grace, by His unmerited love, He saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

The fruit and result of that is that we obey what God has planted in our hearts. But it is a consequence of His salvation not a cause.

 

[Hizikyah]

we are not saved by being given grace. That is a secondary meaning of grace. We are saved by God's grace acting upon us. By grace, by His unmerited love, He saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

The fruit and result of that is that we obey what God has planted in our hearts. But it is a consequence of His salvation not a cause.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out; that times of refreshing may come from the presence of YHWH."

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:4, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and tolerance, and patience, not knowing that the kindness of YHWH leads you to repentance? “[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[mailmandan]

Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out; that times of refreshing may come from the presence of YHWH."

Romans 2:4, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and tolerance, and patience, not knowing that the kindness of YHWH leads you to repentance? “

Repentance is a "change of mind" which precedes believe the way of righteousness/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Hizikyah]

Repentance is a "change of mind" which precedes believe/believe the gospel/faith in our Lord Jesus Christ:

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ

Does a change in behavior follow? and if it does not is it true repentance?

 

[mailmandan]

Does a change in behavior follow? and if it does not is it true repentance?

The Bible tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance -- "to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind." If there is no change in behavior at all, then there was no true repentance.

 

[Hizikyah]

The Bible tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance -- "to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind." If there is no change in behavior at all, then there was no true repentance.

I agree, the way I see it, is because He will change our heats an we will not longer want to live in sin. Not that we will be perfect every second ofevery day, but we will not want to do the things He calls sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy, so I (Paul) worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."


Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."


Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you (Paul), yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

You can sit there and post verses all you want.

As long as you refuse to acknowledge what paul said. You are running from the truth.

again, Paul said those words. NOT EG, Your argument is with Paul.

Paul was alive in that day, He knew what the people he spoke to thought, and what they believed, and they believed that righteousness came by the law. And when it came to obedience, the pharisees had it nailed.

The pharisees where the Jewish version of the churches holier than though sinless people who think they have arrived. Proud, boastfull, judging others, condemning them because they do not live as we live.

 

[mailmandan]

I agree, the way I see it, is because He will change our heats an we will not longer want to live in sin. Not that we will be perfect every second ofevery day, but we will not want to do the things He calls sin.

It's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection (absolute perfection that is) of our walk.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does a change in behavior follow? and if it does not is it true repentance?

What causes that change in behavior?

 

[Hizikyah]

It's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection (absolute perfection that is) of our walk.

seeking to grow in Messiah every day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree, the way I see it, is because He will change our heats an we will not longer want to live in sin. Not that we will be perfect every second ofevery day, but we will not want to do the things He calls sin.

I think it is deeper than this.

The change comes when we desire to serve and love others. And we start to understand and trust God to take care of our own needs.

If we just want to stop doing sin, we have missed th whole point of grace and love.

 

[Hizikyah]

What causes that change in behavior?

YHWH's Spirit;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ezekiel 36:26-28, "A new heart, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

seeking to grow in Messiah every day.

by doing what?

following rules

or by serving others and putting their needs over your own?

 

[Hizikyah]

I think it is deeper than this.

The change comes when we desire to serve and love others. And we start to understand and trust God to take care of our own needs.

If we just want to stop doing sin, we have missed th whole point of grace and love.

i think it can be both and needs to be because not loving is sin, sin is not loving.

IMO one should seek to love other and not do sins, even thiose that are not against another person...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

YHWH's Spirit;

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


Ezekiel 36:26-28, "A new heart, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments, and do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you will be My people, and I will be your Father."

Ezekiel was written to jews, who had rejected their god for centuries. And continued even after their messiah came. so please stop using it.

Jesus gave us the answer himself. By loving all people and serving them, and putting their needs above yours.

We love because God first loved us. We love because we are saved, We stop sin because we become like Christ, not because we follow som law.

 

[Hizikyah]

by doing what?

following rules

or by serving others and putting their needs over your own?

His guidance, test the spirits, if one view of right and wrong does not line up with the written word and the Law, they are following the worng spirit.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i think it can be both and needs to be because not loving is sin, sin is not loving.

IMO one should seek to love other and not do sins, even thiose that are not against another person...

it can not be both

Followinbg rules causes us to focus on self. Not on others. If I spend my day trying to follow every rule. My mind will never be focused on loving and serving others.

if we serve others, and have the fruit of the spirit. We do not need rules. Because by following the spirit, we will neve4r break the rules or be tempted to to begin with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

His guidance, test the spirits, if one view of right and wrong does not line up with the written word and the Law, they are following the worng spirit.

Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."


"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

So I can love god with all my heart and soul, and my neighbor (everyone I come in contact with, always putting their needs above my own, ) and follow the things of the spirit, producing the fruit of the spirit, and be following the wrong spirit?

Please. Do tell how that can be so