Grace alone or grace plus works?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Is salvation by Grace alone?

  • Salvation Is by Grace alone through faith.

    Votes: 42 87.5%
  • Salvation Is by Grace through faith plus works

    Votes: 6 12.5%

  • Total voters
    48
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
0
Still waiting for an answer. Can someone tell me why this can be following the same spirit?
The true fruit to always look for first is perfect love. If perfect love is missing then, the motive is self and pride.

Not arguing agaisnt you and probably not answering the question. So do not take offense.

I know lost people that can and do display joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control as human emotions and human moral character. Notice the one missing?

I can have genuine kindness toward someone, but if not motivated by Love.
 
Jan 21, 2017
647
28
0
We all know its not of works.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



In Matthew 25 looks like the goats didn't do something that the sheep did do. And Jesus is happy with the sheep, tells em to inherit the kingdom. And the goats are taken to the fire? Hmm. Well at that time we did not have the scholarly expertise of today's theological masterminds.

Well what about that verse where those guys come up to Jesus and say "did we not do mighty works in your name"? That verse is always used to prove that deeds dont matter. Well lets see about that.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Looks like these folks were working iniquity and it was a problem. Yikes! Well how about the "I never knew you". Folks who quote this never take Luke 13:27 literally and say Jesus doesn't know where people come from in the parable.
Both sayings simply mean renunciation of these people, whether its I never knew you or I knew not whence ye came. Its the same idea.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

He seems to be making a big deal out of what people do. Well. Thats probably the old covenant. Its not of works thats what we do know for sure! (Galatians 6:8).
I wonder if revelation is old covenant? Its the last book in the bible, written after the death burial and resurrection. Sounds kinda extreme though some of the stuff on there. Probably still old covenant. Nobody knows. Maybe I gotta google a commentary to explain away the uncomfortable verses.

Can someone explain to me WHY these verses dont mean what they say? Convince me and i'll join ya in the deeds dont matter crowd. Show and i'll believe ya.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The true fruit to always look for first is perfect love. If perfect love is missing then, the motive is self and pride.

Not arguing agaisnt you and probably not answering the question. So do not take offense.

I know lost people that can and do display joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control as human emotions and human moral character. Notice the one missing?

I can have genuine kindness toward someone, but if not motivated by Love.
I agree, anyone can act like a christian. It takes a real christian to be one though.

I agree about the love issue, Thats why I mentioned love of God and all men and women first in my post. Not just human love, but Gods love, a love that only those born of God are even capable of showing (we love because God loved us first)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Originally Posted by valiant
we are not saved by being given grace. That is a secondary meaning of grace. We are saved by God's grace acting upon us. By grace, by His unmerited love, He saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

The fruit and result of that is that we obey what God has planted in our hearts. But it is a consequence of His salvation not a cause.
Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out; that times of refreshing may come from the presence of YHWH."


Romans 2:4, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and tolerance, and patience, not knowing that the kindness of YHWH leads you to repentance? “


we repent because we have been given the gift of repentance. Acts 5.31
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
we repent because we have been given the gift of repentance. Acts 5.31
Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
No it does not help, Because you would have to prove how I was wrong in what I said.

Jesus said if I obey the law of love (love God and others, ie, put their needs above my own) and paul said if I seek after the things of the spirit I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So If I have determined to have a lifestyle of serving and loving others. And not worry about my needs, how can that be following the wrong spirit?
So you are the judge and jury on if you have obeyed the
law of love (love God and others, ie, put their needs above my own)
as well as fulfilling the seeking
after the things of the spirit I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh
You have determined that you
have a lifestyle of serving and loving others. And not worry about my needs, how can that be following the wrong spirit
Let me guess, God told you all these things. He told you that there was no need to concern yourself, that you are okay in His eyes. Its us schmucks that need to get our act straight.

Am I close?

What else has He told you?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So you are the judge and jury on if you have obeyed the as well as fulfilling the seeking

You have determined that you

Let me guess, God told you all these things. He told you that there was no need to concern yourself, that you are okay in His eyes. Its us schmucks that need to get our act straight.

Am I close?

What else has He told you?

so you can;t prove me wrong.

loving others and putting their needs above my own, is that wrong?

I guess Jesus was wrong. And thats not the way to overcome sin. Thanks..
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Lawless deeds are breaking the 10 commandments.

Now the problem is that those 10 commandments are spiritual. But our understanding of them is carnal. Because we are carnal people.

So what is the Solution? How can we not be lawless?

Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The solution is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Not our continued work and continued "understanding" of the spiritual law.
How can we serve the Law of God in our mind and walk in the doctrines and traditions of man? Are we not to serve God in our mind as a means to "rule over sin"? What is the purpose of having God's Commandments in our mind if we don't walk in them as Jesus did, and as we are commanded?

For instance, there is a modern religion that creates images of God after the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, they place the name of Jesus on him and they have created their own "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship of this image they created.

Now there are billions of people on this "PATH" who all say "Lord, Lord, and come in Christ's Name, preaching that He is truly the Son of God, yet they all follow these lifestyle's which are in direct disobedience to the First and Greatest commandment.

Every last one of them declaring to be "saved" by the Grace of Jesus.

Didn't Jesus warn us of such things? Broad path vs. Narrow path. satan disguising itself as Christians, many saying Lord, but will be rejected because of "working iniquity".


At what point do we stand back and say "Wait a minute". If the Bible is true, this can't be right.

At what point does a man say "Wait a minute", should I listen to man or God? Shall I follow the teaching of a Mainstream religion that openly Transgresses the commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions?

Or do I live by EVERY Word of God and His instruction and "Come out of her", this great religion followed by the masses.


I understand you can't accept this, but I also know there are those few who will ask these questions. They will stop at the burning bush and ponder the sight.

They will open their mind to the light and let Him expose their sins so He can heal them and free them from the burden of deception and death.

Matt. 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

As Jesus said to us before He came to earth as a man:

Deut. 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.


17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, (Long Haired pretty boy)and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.


19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God,(Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: (Walk as He Walked)for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

No GP,

I choose life. I know this path don't have many on it. I know I will be rejected by those who preach these Words of Jesus don't mean anything to us. I know you and EG preach "God's Laws are not for the Christian", but I am sticking with the Jesus of the Bible.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
so you can;t prove me wrong.

loving others and putting their needs above my own, is that wrong?

I guess Jesus was wrong. And thats not the way to overcome sin. Thanks..
I can't prove you right or wrong. I don't even know you.

Jesus is not wrong, you claiming to be right before God is whats wrong.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
How can we serve the Law of God in our mind and walk in the doctrines and traditions of man? Are we not to serve God in our mind as a means to "rule over sin"? What is the purpose of having God's Commandments in our mind if we don't walk in them as Jesus did, and as we are commanded?

For instance, there is a modern religion that creates images of God after the likeness of some long haired men's shampoo model, they place the name of Jesus on him and they have created their own "Feasts unto the Lord" in worship of this image they created.

Now there are billions of people on this "PATH" who all say "Lord, Lord, and come in Christ's Name, preaching that He is truly the Son of God, yet they all follow these lifestyle's which are in direct disobedience to the First and Greatest commandment.

Every last one of them declaring to be "saved" by the Grace of Jesus.

Didn't Jesus warn us of such things? Broad path vs. Narrow path. satan disguising itself as Christians, many saying Lord, but will be rejected because of "working iniquity".


At what point do we stand back and say "Wait a minute". If the Bible is true, this can't be right.

At what point does a man say "Wait a minute", should I listen to man or God? Shall I follow the teaching of a Mainstream religion that openly Transgresses the commandments of God by their own doctrines and traditions?

Or do I live by EVERY Word of God and His instruction and "Come out of her", this great religion followed by the masses.


I understand you can't accept this, but I also know there are those few who will ask these questions. They will stop at the burning bush and ponder the sight.

They will open their mind to the light and let Him expose their sins so He can heal them and free them from the burden of deception and death.

Matt. 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

As Jesus said to us before He came to earth as a man:

Deut. 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.


17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, (Long Haired pretty boy)and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.


19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God,(Jesus) and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: (Walk as He Walked)for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

No GP,

I choose life. I know this path don't have many on it. I know I will be rejected by those who preach these Words of Jesus don't mean anything to us. I know you and EG preach "God's Laws are not for the Christian", but I am sticking with the Jesus of the Bible.
I don't know why you think there aren't many on the same path you are on.

Everyone is under the law until they come to Christ.

This means everyone is working at the law, just like you, until they come to Christ.

Christ is the narrow path.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I can't prove you right or wrong. I don't even know you.

Jesus is not wrong, you claiming to be right before God is whats wrong.
N0 but you can read what I say and agree or disagree.

Is putting others needs above our own in live, and seeking the things of the spirit the way God says to overcome sin or not?


 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
N0 but you can read what I say and agree or disagree.

Is putting others needs above our own in live, and seeking the things of the spirit the way God says to overcome sin or not?


History is littered with people who sincerely believed they were full of the Holy Spirit, putting others first, seeking the truth, possessing gifts from God, walking hand in hand with God so on and so on. Some were sincerely wrong, others were delusional, many were just ignorant some just arrogant and a few humble ones were quite correct.

The point is to be on guard, test ourselves and never ever convince yourself that you possess unquestionable assurance.
 
Last edited:
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
History is littered with people who sincerely believed they were full of the Holy Spirit, putting others first, seeking the truth, possessing gifts from God, walking hand in hand with God so on and so on. Some were certainly wrong, other were delusional, many were just ignorant and a few humble one were quite correct.

The point is to be on guard, test ourselves and never ever convince yourself that you possess unquestionable assurance.
well it is obvious have no desire to discuss anything. I made a general statement. A spoke the words of God. And you can not even say if it is right or not.

Of course we know why..
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,323
16,307
113
69
Tennessee
History is littered with people who sincerely believed they were full of the Holy Spirit, putting others first, seeking the truth, possessing gifts from God, walking hand in hand with God so on and so on. Some were sincerely wrong, others were delusional, many were just ignorant some just arrogant and a few humble ones were quite correct.

The point is to be on guard, test ourselves and never ever convince yourself that you possess unquestionable assurance.
Blessed assured hope is not unquestionable. There is such a thing as stated in bible in numerous passages. Either Jesus died for your sins or He didn't. Either you're confident of this or your not.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Blessed assured hope is not unquestionable. There is such a thing as stated in bible in numerous passages. Either Jesus died for your sins or He didn't. Either you're confident of this or your not.
Blessed assured hope is not unquestionable.
Not sure what you mean by the above sentence. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,052
26,160
113
History is littered with people who sincerely believed they were full of the Holy Spirit, putting others first, seeking the truth, possessing gifts from God, walking hand in hand with God so on and so on. Some were sincerely wrong, others were delusional, many were just ignorant some just arrogant and a few humble ones were quite correct.

The point is to be on guard, test ourselves and never ever convince yourself that you possess unquestionable assurance.
Scripture is written that we may know we are saved (see 1 John 5:13).
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,323
16,307
113
69
Tennessee
Not sure what you mean by the above sentence. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
You were warning another member not to ever convince themselves that they possess unquestionable assurance regarding their salvation. My point is that one should be completely confident in their salvation and treat it as a blessed assured hope that Jesus died for their sins and that their salvation is secure and will never be taken away.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
You were warning another member not to ever convince themselves that they possess unquestionable assurance regarding their salvation. My point is that one should be completely confident in their salvation and treat it as a blessed assured hope that Jesus died for their sins and that their salvation is secure and will never be taken away.
How could anyone be converted if they believed they possessed unquestionable assurance?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,052
26,160
113
How could anyone be converted if they believed they possessed unquestionable assurance?
Why would they believe they possessed unquestionable assurance if they had not been converted?
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Why would they believe they possessed unquestionable assurance if they had not been converted?
????????????????

If a Mormon believes he possesses unquestionable assurance how can he ever be converted??