GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[Hizikyah]

Hi Hizikyah.

I cannot see how you come to the conclusion that I say obedience is a bad thing.. Could you show me where I said that.?

When I posted this:

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”


1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."


Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”


1 Corinthians 2:9, “But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which YHWH has prepared for those who love Him.”


John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

Your reply was one of scorn and implying false doctrine:

And here we have it folks:

saved by grace through Law​

The Father and His Mesiah say it is loving them. If I post verse of Them both saying it is loving them to follow the Commands and you reply with implacation that it is false doctrine how can you say it is not antinomian? I could understand if someone said they are saved because obedience, but that was not stated at all, not even hinted at. Also there were none of my own words, it was Scripture only. So if you want me to see those words as differnt please explain how follwing His Commands, which He says is love is preaching "saved by grace through Law?" It is a rather henious doctrine to reply in that manner when reading those verses.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:16-21, “And I shall ask the Father, and He shall give you another Helper, to stay with you forever. the Spirit of the Truth, whom the world is unable to receive, because it does not see Him or know Him. But you know Him, for He stays with you and shall be in you. I shall not leave you orphans – I am coming to you. Yet a little while, and the world no longer sees Me, but you shall see Me, because I live, and you shall live. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.”[/FONT]

 

[phil36]

When I posted this:



Your reply was one of scorn and implying false doctrine:



The Father and His Mesiah say it is loving them. If I post verse of Them both saying it is loving them to follow the Commands and you reply with implacation that it is false doctrine how can you say it is not antinomian? I could understand if someone said they are saved because obedience, but that was not stated at all, not even hinted at. Also there were none of my own words, it was Scripture only. So if you want me to see those words as differnt please explain how follwing His Commands, which He says is love is preaching "saved by grace through Law?" It is a rather henious doctrine to reply in that manner when reading those verses.

John/Yahanan 14:16-21, “And I shall ask the Father, and He shall give you another Helper, to stay with you forever. the Spirit of the Truth, whom the world is unable to receive, because it does not see Him or know Him. But you know Him, for He stays with you and shall be in you. I shall not leave you orphans – I am coming to you. Yet a little while, and the world no longer sees Me, but you shall see Me, because I live, and you shall live. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Hi Hizikyah,

I have to give you credit for one thing, your very clever (when it suits you) in hiding what you actually mean. keeping commandments to you is in the Mosaic law..and especially observing the Mosaic Sabbath!

 

[Hizikyah]

Hi Hizikyah,

I have to give you credit for one thing, your very clever (when it suits you) in hiding what you actually mean. keeping commandments to you is in the Mosaic law..and especially observing the Mosaic Sabbath!

OK so no explanation, I don;t know whay I even expected one. and it's not Moses Sabbath:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 6:5, “And He said to them, “The Son of Aḏam is Master of the Sabbath.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis 2:1-3, “Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their array. And in the seventh day the Mighty One completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And the Mighty One blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because on it He rested from all His work which the Mighty One in creating had made.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

 

[phil36]

OK so no explanation, I don;t know whay I even expected one. and it's not Moses Sabbath:

Luke 6:5, “And He said to them, “The Son of Aḏam is Master of the Sabbath.”


Genesis 2:1-3, “Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their array. And in the seventh day the Mighty One completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And the Mighty One blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because on it He rested from all His work which the Mighty One in creating had made.”

You've been answered many times, and shown how you twist scripture to fit your Hebrew roots law keeping:

Luke 6:5English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

5 And he said to them, “The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”



Sabbath keepers argue that it is the example of Jesus that gives us the reason for keeping the Sabbath.

"He kept the Sabbath, so I must keep the Sabbath. Jesus is my example," they say. Well this kind of reasoning is flawed because it only chooses Jesus' Sabbath keeping and rejects the rest of His Jewish lifestyle. Jesus also kept Kosher laws. He kept the Passover, Sukkot, Hanukkah, and worshipped in the temple. Are we to follow everything He did?

Galatians 4:4-5 says that Jesus lived under the Law to redeem us from the Law.
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (NIV)


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JESUS WAS ALSO ACCUSED OF SABBATH BREAKING.

Why, if He wanted to be our "example" in Sabbath keeping didn't He make it clear that He was not breaking the Sabbath? Instead He clearly admits to it. He also admits that His disciples were breaking the Sabbath and He defends them. Read Matthew 12:1- 14 carefully. Jesus is clearly saying that His disciples are like the priests who may work in the temple every Sabbath and be innocent of breaking the Sabbath. When Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath" He is declaring that He is above the Sabbath. He may do what He wishes on the Sabbath and therefore His disciples may do whatever they wish as well.

Apparently Jesus did break the Sabbath: "Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath."..." John 9:15.If Jesus did not want us to understand that He was breaking the Sabbath why did He not speak against these accusations. It's because Jesus had the right and the authority to break the Sabbath because He is Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not bind Him. Think about this, if it does not bind Him, are we not "in Christ"? Why would it be any more binding upon us. (Again Read Matthew 12:1-14 carefully).

One of the issues that needs to be honestly faced is the fact that Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath and none of His apostles ever commanded anyone to keep it either. Not once in the New Testament are we told to keep the Sabbath. Those commands to the Church are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the New Testament.

EVERY MENTION OF THE SABBATH IN THE BOOK OF ACTS without a single exception is in connection with Jewish worship on that day and not Christian celebration. Paul's evangelistic strategy was to go to the Jews first in a community and share the Gospel with them. Sabbath is the day when he knew he would find the most Jews gathering for worship. He knew he would have his best opportunity of sharing the good news of the Messiah to the Jews on Sabbath. It was not because he was meeting with a group of believing Christians. He was meeting with non-Christian Jews.

IS THE TEN COMMANDMENT LAW ETERNAL?

No, the Law is not eternal. Galatians 3:19 gives the purpose of the Law. It says: "What, then, was the purpose of he law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."
The law was given 430 years after Abraham. "What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise." Galatians 3:17-18.

The Law had a definite beginning time (430 years after Abraham) and a definite ending time, --When the promised Seed (Christ, vs. 16) came.

Other Scriptures such as Romans 5:12-14 indicate that there can be sin in the world, even BEFORE the Law was given. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned -- for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's offense, who is a type of Him who was to come."


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CREATION & THE SABBATH: The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:

The Ten Commandments was not made with the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says

"The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."
Nehemiah 9:13-14 says: "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).


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WAS THE SABBATH GIVEN FOR ALL MANKIND TO KEEP PERPETUALLY?

No, - Though Genesis 2:1-3 says that after the Lord had ended all His work He rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, there is not a word about it being given to Adam and Eve as a commandment. You don't hear another word about the Sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. All fifty chapters are silent about the Sabbath.
You do not hear that the righteous Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob kept the Sabbath. There is a conspicuous silence for 2,500 years after the Fall of man. It is not until after the redemption of God's people Israel out of Egypt when they are safely on the other side of the Red Sea that you read in the Book of Exodus that the Sabbath is mentioned again. (Exodus 16:22-30). Abraham was given commandments and ordinances, but the Sabbath is never mentioned as one of them.

Then the Sabbath is given to Israel and Israel alone. The Sabbath is a covenant sign between God and the nation of Israel. "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:12-17


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Notice that the reason why the Lord links the Sabbath to creation is that He is identifying Himself to Israel as the true and living Creator God. He is separate and apart from all of the other gods of Egypt and of the Gentile world. "Keep the Sabbath, worship Me, for I AM the true, living Creator of the Universe."
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Notice also that this Sabbath "SIGN" (Exodus 31:13) is between God and "the sons of Israel" (Exodus 12:15,17) and not for all of mankind.


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Nehemiah 9:13-14 indicates that the Sabbath was not given to be kept by anyone until it was given to Israel in the wilderness. "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).

DOESN'T THE BIBLE SAY THAT THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN?

"And He was saying to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27. Sabbatarians often use this verse to say that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, but the text doesn't say that. It doesn't say, "The Sabbath was made for "mankind", it says, "the Sabbath was made for man". When the Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it is clear. See Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11. These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.
The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given only to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. It is clearly stated that God did not give the Sabbath or other commandments to the fathers before (see verses 2-3).

One writer has brought up the point that this text shows that the Sabbath was not a part of the "moral" Law to be kept by all mankind from the beginning, for it had to be made. It was made in Exodus 16-20. Notice also that this text does not say it was made for man from the "beginning," as was marriage (cf Matthew 19:4ff). WHICH OTHER OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HAD TO BE MADE? --NOT ONE! (Gerald N. Wright, Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary, Star Bible & Tract Corp., 1977, pp. 78-79).

Wright commenting on this passage says: "The other nine [commandments] were (and are) inherently right from the beginning, reflecting God's righteous nature and being naturally a part of man's moral character, who was made in the image of God (cf Romans 2:14). Which command other than the sabbath is lower than man--subject to being set aside under certain circumstances? When, or under what circumstances, can man lawfully commit adultery? Obviously, never! Man's life is not above God's holy and moral laws. Yet even a sheep's life is more important than rigid enforcement of the sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12)!

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NO "BURGER KING" SABBATHS - You can't "Have It Your Way" with the Sabbath. God specifies how it was to be kept.

-It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21)
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).

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NO "INSPIRED" WRITER MAKES ANY DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE "MORAL" LAW & THE "CEREMONIAL" LAWS.

"(2) The Sabbath in its nature, is itself a ceremonial law: the moral law is all law which appeals to the conscience, and needs no written revelation; but as to which day to observe, or whether to observe any day at all, conscience is silent. If we are to distinguish between the moral and the ceremonial law, on the ground that one is passed, and the other still in force, then--as the Sabbath is purely ceremonial law--it is passed. But the most important point still remains. (3) I, as a Christian, obey all law that is moral in the Decalogue, not because it is in the Law, but because it is in the Gospel. Worship of God only is enjoined fifty times in the New Testament; idolatry is forbidden twelve times; profanity four times; honor of father and mother is commanded six times; adultery is forbidden twelve; theft six; false witness four; and covetousness, nine times. "The Ten Commandments," as Luther says, "do not apply to us Gentiles and Christians, but only to the Jews." So the Sabbath--except in a single passage where, classing it with the entire law, he declares it has been totally abolished. So the early Church held."

--D. M. Panton, cited in Heresies Exposed, Compiled by Irvine, pp. 164-165.

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SOME SABBATARIANS CLAIM THAT THE SABBATH IS THE SEAL OF GOD

The Seal of God is NOT the Sabbath! The Bible tells us clearly that the Seal of God is the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer the moment he is saved.
Ephesians 1:13 says, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."
Ephesians 4:30 warns, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 states "Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."


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IS A SABBATH KEEPING CHURCH THE "REMNANT" OR COMMANDMENT KEEPING CHURCH THAT IS SPOKEN OF IN REVELATION 12:17?

Rev. 12:17 says, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
In the New Covenant, what are the "Commandments" of God? Does this mean Ten Commandments? NO! The Greek word used for the Ten Commandments is "NOMOS". That word is not used here. The word used here is "ENTELE" and means "teachings".
John clarifies this and actually tells us what the "commandments" are that we are to keep:

I John 5:1-3 says, "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."


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These verses are often used to teach people that they must keep the Ten Commandments, especially the Sabbath. However, the Apostle John defines the "commandments" for us. In the prior chapter he defines them explicitly. "Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in is sight. And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. And the one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him..."
I John 3:21-24a.
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[gotime]

lol commandments don't mean commandments is basically what you are saying. I know you don't see it that way but that is because you do not know the word of God.

What are the commandments of the new covenant?

Lets see what scripture says and at the same time will see if you listen to Scripture or simply hold to your own views.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Now take note which laws are here referred to?

It says very clearly "my laws" who is speaking?

"saith the Lord".

So God is speaking and says my laws.

Where did the author of Hebrews get this concept of the new covenant?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


So it is a quote from Jeremiah and thus "my laws" have a context. What was "my laws" here?

It was the same laws given to Israel as Logically this is the only option if context is taken into account. In fact the context is that they are going into captivity for not keeping "my laws" Gods laws. Thus God promises that there will come a time when they will keep them.

This was prophesied by Moses saying:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

And here:

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


This is the same laws that God gave again. No change, the context is exactly the same as Jeremiah, But this is not those laws by works but by faith as it continues:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Paul understood this when he said:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


Through Christ our hearts are changed and the result is keeping the law the very law Israel could not keep by works of the law.

Paul has made this clear already in Romans here:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The Gentiles naturally keep the law because the law is written on their hearts. So we see that the law written on the heart results in a natural keeping of it. The context again is the law of God from the Old Testament in which the Jews were failing to keep even though they taught it.

Ezekiel spoke of it in this way:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God would change their hearts and cause them to keep his laws. Same as Jeremiah said and Moses said and Paul said.

To sit there and say in a twisted way that keeping the commandments is not keeping the commandments of God is just plain wrong and unfounded.

We are not saved by keeping the law, we are saved from breaking it any more.

 

[phil36]

lol commandments don't mean commandments is basically what you are saying. I know you don't see it that way but that is because you do not know the word of God.

What are the commandments of the new covenant?

Lets see what scripture says and at the same time will see if you listen to Scripture or simply hold to your own views.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Now take note which laws are here referred to?

It says very clearly "my laws" who is speaking?

"saith the Lord".

So God is speaking and says my laws.

Where did the author of Hebrews get this concept of the new covenant?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


So it is a quote from Jeremiah and thus "my laws" have a context. What was "my laws" here?

It was the same laws given to Israel as Logically this is the only option if context is taken into account. In fact the context is that they are going into captivity for not keeping "my laws" Gods laws. Thus God promises that there will come a time when they will keep them.

This was prophesied by Moses saying:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

And here:

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


This is the same laws that God gave again. No change, the context is exactly the same as Jeremiah, But this is not those laws by works but by faith as it continues:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Paul understood this when he said:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


Through Christ our hearts are changed and the result is keeping the law the very law Israel could not keep by works of the law.

Paul has made this clear already in Romans here:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The Gentiles naturally keep the law because the law is written on their hearts. So we see that the law written on the heart results in a natural keeping of it. The context again is the law of God from the Old Testament in which the Jews were failing to keep even though they taught it.

Ezekiel spoke of it in this way:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God would change their hearts and cause them to keep his laws. Same as Jeremiah said and Moses said and Paul said.

To sit there and say in a twisted way that keeping the commandments is not keeping the commandments of God is just plain wrong and unfounded.

We are not saved by keeping the law, we are saved from breaking it any more.

Who are you talking to?

 

[LoveGodForever]

Who are you talking to?

He is talking to you. You do not know this because you did not read His post or the scriptures in them as usual but are focusing on the teachings of men that break the commandments of God in order to hold on to your traditions. Read the scriptures my dear friend they are God's Words to you. He is calling you in LOVE to LOVE as He loves US. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us as we by Faith walk In HIS Spirit.

There is NO scripture in ALL the bible that says that God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are to follow Sunday worship in it's place.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and like any of the ten, if we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

You post your words of website and point all to the teachings of men, we post God's Word who should you BELIEVE?

 

[phil36]

He is talking to you. You do not know this because you did not read His post or the scriptures in them as usual but are focusing on the teachings of men that break the commandments of God in order to hold on to your traditions

Ahh thats good, I kinda of thought he was...anyhow.

It certainly was a long winded way of saying, saved by keeping the Sabbath keeping. 20 paragraphs lol

It just goes to show how deceptive SDA, Sabbatarians and Hebrew roots people can be.

 

[LoveGodForever]

The first commandment given in scripture is in Genesis 2:16-17: "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat...'" Then Satan enters the scene and begins his war against obeying the Lord's commands, a war that he continues today through those who are doing the same thing.

Hi rstrats,

This is actually a very interesting study and set of scriptures;

Gen 3:1,
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:2-3,
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Gen 3:4,
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:5,
God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Key points from scripture...................

· The original deceiver the devil (v1)
· Eve told the serpent that God commanded them not to touch or eat the fruit lest they die (v 2-3)
· The serpent lied to Eve saying that you will not surely die if you don’t do what God asks. You will be like God knowing good and evil (v 4-5).

Putting it all together...................

The fall of mankind was from the original lie (John 8:44; 1John 3:8). When God commanded mankind to follow him lest they die. The Devil’’s original lie was that you can break God’s Law and not die. The teachings of many false religions today is the same as the original lie. If God asks us to do something and you do not do it…. “Ye shall not surely die” (Gen 3:4). But God's Word says we will die if we break God's Law (Rom 6:23). Who do we follow God or man?

God bless you all

 

[LoveGodForever]

Ahh thats good, I kinda of thought he was...anyhow.
It certainly was a long winded way of saying, saved by keeping the Sabbath keeping. 20 paragraphs lol
It just goes to show how deceptive SDA, Sabbatarians and Hebrew roots people can be.

Not at all friend just a LOT of scripture that does not agree with you. This is sad for you.

 

[LoveGodForever]

lol commandments don't mean commandments is basically what you are saying. I know you don't see it that way but that is because you do not know the word of God.

What are the commandments of the new covenant?

Lets see what scripture says and at the same time will see if you listen to Scripture or simply hold to your own views.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Now take note which laws are here referred to?

It says very clearly "my laws" who is speaking?

"saith the Lord".

So God is speaking and says my laws.

Where did the author of Hebrews get this concept of the new covenant?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


So it is a quote from Jeremiah and thus "my laws" have a context. What was "my laws" here?

It was the same laws given to Israel as Logically this is the only option if context is taken into account. In fact the context is that they are going into captivity for not keeping "my laws" Gods laws. Thus God promises that there will come a time when they will keep them.

This was prophesied by Moses saying:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

And here:

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


This is the same laws that God gave again. No change, the context is exactly the same as Jeremiah, But this is not those laws by works but by faith as it continues:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


Paul understood this when he said:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


Through Christ our hearts are changed and the result is keeping the law the very law Israel could not keep by works of the law.

Paul has made this clear already in Romans here:

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

The Gentiles naturally keep the law because the law is written on their hearts. So we see that the law written on the heart results in a natural keeping of it. The context again is the law of God from the Old Testament in which the Jews were failing to keep even though they taught it.

Ezekiel spoke of it in this way:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God would change their hearts and cause them to keep his laws. Same as Jeremiah said and Moses said and Paul said.

To sit there and say in a twisted way that keeping the commandments is not keeping the commandments of God is just plain wrong and unfounded.

We are not saved by keeping the law, we are saved from breaking it any more.

Hi Gotime, nicely put together...

May God bless you as you share His Word...

 

[phil36]

He is talking to you. You do not know this because you did not read His post or the scriptures in them as usual but are focusing on the teachings of men that break the commandments of God in order to hold on to your traditions. Read the scriptures my dear friend they are God's Words to you. He is calling you in LOVE to LOVE as He loves US. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us as we by Faith walk In HIS Spirit.

There is NO scripture in ALL the bible that says that God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are to follow Sunday worship in it's place.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and like any of the ten, if we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

You post your words of website and point all to the teachings of men, we post God's Word who should you BELIEVE?

WHY IS IT THAT NOWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS IT TAUGHT THAT THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT MUST BE OBSERVED?

-Why is it that nowhere in the New Testament is failure to keep the Sabbath day condemned as sin?

-Why is the fourth commandment itself not repeated even ONCE in the New Testament?

-If the Sabbath keeping is so important for a disciple of Christ, why was it not mentioned in His sermon on the Mount or in ANY of His teachings?

-Why didn't Jesus command Sabbath keeping?

-Why didn't any of the Apostles command Sabbath keeping?

-Why didn't the Jerusalem counsel command Sabbath keeping or condemn Sabbath breaking? (Acts 15)

Some answer that the Jews already knew about the Sabbath so it was taken for granted that they would continue to keep it, but then why were the other nine commandments reiterated? Would they not be taken for granted as well? It would also seem that with so many Gentiles coming into the Church, that if keeping the Sabbath was so important there would be instruction in the New Testament Epistles somewhere concerning it. There are instructions for them concerning morality, ethics, worship, Church order and family lifestyle. Why would something as important as Sabbath keeping be ignored? Circumcision, which predates the Law and the Sabbath commandment was an issue in the New Testament Church and is addressed repeatedly in the New Testament Epistles and by the Jerusalem Counsel.


​

Sabbath keepers argue that it is the example of Jesus that gives us the reason for keeping the Sabbath.

"He kept the Sabbath, so I must keep the Sabbath. Jesus is my example," they say. Well this kind of reasoning is flawed because it only chooses Jesus' Sabbath keeping and rejects the rest of His Jewish lifestyle. Jesus also kept Kosher laws. He kept the Passover, Sukkot, Hanukkah, and worshipped in the temple. Are we to follow everything He did?

Galatians 4:4-5 says that Jesus lived under the Law to redeem us from the Law.
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (NIV)
​

 

[LoveGodForever]

WHY IS IT THAT NOWHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IS IT TAUGHT THAT THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT MUST BE OBSERVED?

-Why is it that nowhere in the New Testament is failure to keep the Sabbath day condemned as sin?

-Why is the fourth commandment itself not repeated even ONCE in the New Testament?

-If the Sabbath keeping is so important for a disciple of Christ, why was it not mentioned in His sermon on the Mount or in ANY of His teachings?

-Why didn't Jesus command Sabbath keeping?

-Why didn't any of the Apostles command Sabbath keeping?

-Why didn't the Jerusalem counsel command Sabbath keeping or condemn Sabbath breaking? (Acts 15)

Some answer that the Jews already knew about the Sabbath so it was taken for granted that they would continue to keep it, but then why were the other nine commandments reiterated? Would they not be taken for granted as well? It would also seem that with so many Gentiles coming into the Church, that if keeping the Sabbath was so important there would be instruction in the New Testament Epistles somewhere concerning it. There are instructions for them concerning morality, ethics, worship, Church order and family lifestyle. Why would something as important as Sabbath keeping be ignored? Circumcision, which predates the Law and the Sabbath commandment was an issue in the New Testament Church and is addressed repeatedly in the New Testament Epistles and by the Jerusalem Counsel.

Sabbath keepers argue that it is the example of Jesus that gives us the reason for keeping the Sabbath.

"He kept the Sabbath, so I must keep the Sabbath. Jesus is my example," they say. Well this kind of reasoning is flawed because it only chooses Jesus' Sabbath keeping and rejects the rest of His Jewish lifestyle. Jesus also kept Kosher laws. He kept the Passover, Sukkot, Hanukkah, and worshipped in the temple. Are we to follow everything He did?

Galatians 4:4-5 says that Jesus lived under the Law to redeem us from the Law.
"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." (NIV)

Hello friend, more word of website? What about God's Word?

You keep leaving out your source and what website you get your information from that you use instead of God's Word.

The above has already been addressed many times here already with scripture happy to resend the scriptures if you missed them just let me know?

There is NO scripture in ALL the bible that says that God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are to follow Sunday worship in it's place.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and like any of the ten, if we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

 

[phil36]

Hello friend, more word of website? What about God's Word?

Hi LGF,

Lets have a look at what the SDA/Sabbatarians falsely teach. Is this the teaching of the word you are referring to SDA falsehoods?


SATAN BEARS OUR SINS

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed" The Great Controversy, p. 422 (emphasis added).

"Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin" Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 475.







These are just teachings of man and not from God. You need to come out of SDA. Sabbatarianiam LGF.

It was Jesus who bore our sins not Satan:

1 Peter 2:24:

"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi LGF,

Lets have a look at what the SDA/Sabbatarians falsely teach. Is this the teaching of the word you are referring to SDA falsehoods?
SATAN BEARS OUR SINS

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed" The Great Controversy, p. 422 (emphasis added).

"Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin" Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 475.
hese are just teachings of man and not from God. You need to come out of SDA. Sabbatarianiam LGF.

It was Jesus who bore our sins not Satan:

1 Peter 2:24:

"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."

Why would we need to look at anything with you when you do not know God's Word and point all to the teachings of men over the Word of God?. The topic here is the OP and sharing God's Word do you have anything to share? It is only the Believers and followers of the Word that know Him who love all

 

[phil36]

Why would we need to look at anything with you when you do not know God's Word and point all to the teachings of men over the Word of God?. The topic here is the OP and sharing God's Word do you have anything to share?

Hi Lovegodforever,

I see SDA/Sabbatarians deem Ellen G white as a pope figure.. her words are on par with Scripture.

Is ellen g whites words of prophecy the 'words' you are referring to?

Adventism—The Reflection of Ellen G. White
Seventh-day Adventism is a reflection of its prophetess, Ellen G. White. It is inseparably united to her writings, which are considered to be an authoritative source of truth. The Adventist church recognizes that it is indebted to and dependent upon Mrs. White's writings.​

Mrs. White's writings are affectionately called, "The Spirit of Prophecy" by most Seventh-day Adventists. It is believed that her prophetic gift within the Adventist church is one of the proofs that it is the "remnant" church which "keeps the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus . . . the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 12:17;19:10


In the book, The White Truth published by the church in 1981 as a response to the recent discovery of Mrs. White's plagiarism, author John J. Robertson clearly sets forth the importance of Mrs. White's writings in the Adventist community. Robertson states:

"The influence of the spirit of prophecy is woven into the warp and woof of Adventist faith, life and organization . . . What we are as a church is a reflection of our faith in the divine authority evident in the writings of Ellen G. White."


​

The same year The White Truth was offered as a public defense of Mrs. White's writings, the church met in General Conference session and reworked its statement of beliefs. In what has come to be known as the "Dallas Statement" we see a clear expression of the extraordinary role Mrs. White's writings have in the church.

"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth and provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." Statement 17 (emphasis added)
​

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi Lovegodforever,
I see SDA/Sabbatarians deem Ellen G white as a pope figure.. her words are on par with Scripture.
Is ellen g whites words of prophecy the 'words' you are referring to?

Phil now your fruits are showing. Do you have any scripture to share in regards to the OP or any scripture to share in general? Seems not. If I was you I would consider fearing God more then men. You will not need to answer to man at the day of judgement. Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW him who loves all. Unbelievers will NOT enter the Kingdom of heaven....

 

[phil36]

Phil now your fruits are showing. Do you have any scripture to share in regards to the OP or any scripture to share in general? Seems not. If I was you I would consider fearing God more then men. You will not need to answer to man at the day of judgement. Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW him who loves all. Unbelievers will NOT enter the Kingdom of heaven....

Hi LGF,


I have given you scripture.. but showing all these things like the False and failed prophecies of SDA/Sabbatarianism shows how they mishandle scripture because not only do they use itm they also have the inspired words of Ellen g White. eSPECIALLY HER FALSE TEACHING ON SABBATH KEEPING.

This is why it is quite embarrassing to see you write.. things like:

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God?

Do you agree with the statement of the SDA:

SATAN BEARS OUR SINS

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed" The Great Controversy, p. 422 (emphasis added).

"Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin" Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 475.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi LGF
Do you agree with the statement of the SDA:

Seems you do not have God's Word to share as I thought. How sad for you that you choose not to believe in Jesus........

 

[phil36]

Seems you do not have God's Word to share as I thought. How sad for you that you choose not to believe in Jesus........

Do you agree with the statement of the SDA:


SATAN BEARS OUR SINS

"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed" The Great Controversy, p. 422 (emphasis added).

"Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin" Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 475.