predestination?

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Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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#21
God has His elect children all over the world.....but it is not everyone in the world.....there is a false teaching called universalism that suggests that every person is going to saved.....false.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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#22
Not at all. Here is what the Lord Jesus Christ said (John 8:36):

King James Bible
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

So ask yourself "How could anyone become free 'indeed', unless they had free will to believe what Jesus said, and then their will could be set free from sin and evil"?
Notice Jesus is speaking of being made free from the dominon of sin.....they were bound by sin.....

Notice...not one verse speaking of man having free will...it does not exist.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#23
God has His elect children all over the world.....but it is not everyone in the world.....there is a false teaching called universalism that suggests that every person is going to saved.....false.
Right. But there are actually TWO false teachings about this.

UNIVERSALISM -- All will be saved regardless of whether they obey the Gospel.

CALVINISM -- Only some will be saved because God has decreed that many will be damned.

BIBLE TRUTH -- Anyone and everyone may be saved if they will obey the Gospel.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,615
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#25
Notice Jesus is speaking of being made free from the dominon of sin.....they were bound by sin.....

Notice...not one verse speaking of man having free will...it does not exist.
If free will did not exist (as you claim) how could Christ set anyone free from the dominion of sin? The whole point is that those who freely chose to sin will now freely choose to be righteous, in and through Christ.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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#26
If being "born to be alive" means to act the way the guys on the video act - well - I will just skip it! LOL!
I just didn't have the heart to tell him that there aren't guys on the video but rather three personages which are the same guy.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#27
Hi all! So i go to a private school, and in my Bible class one day, we somehow got into discussing predestination. I wasn't completely following along with what my Bible teacher was saying, but i was too afraid to ask about it since i didn't want to get in trouble....stupid choice, i know. But what he was saying was that Jesus said he "chooses" people to spend eternity with him, and that's not what i believed growing up. I always thought that it was up to you to decide for yourself whether you are a true believer or not and your true salvation. He went on to say that Jesus died on the cross for the lost, NOT for everyone. But isn't it ANYONE who seeks him? I just wanted to get all of you guys' thoughts and this, and I'll be sure to ask next time, haha. Plus I'm so scared of him, he is mean for a bible teacher...he's even been fired before. Hopefully some of you can explain this to me a little better, thanks!
Many of us see it just as you do and many of us see it as your teacher does.

Follow the Holy Spirit within you and don't let people sway you one way or the other!
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
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#28
shrume;

As Chester noted, this is an argument that has raged for centuries.
Many oppose truth.
Your teacher apparently subscribes to Calvinism, that God is the one who chooses,
16[FONT=&quot]Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you[/FONT][FONT=&quot], that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.[/FONT]

and man is incapable of deciding to believe on his own.
14 [FONT=&quot]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned[/FONT]
There are several on this forum who believe Calvinism is true (note the people who "liked" Iconoclast's post)
Those who believe these verses found everywhere in the bible...

and several, myself included, who believe Calvinism is a false doctrine.
Paul spoke of these kinds here;
[FONT=&quot]25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/FONT]

I believe that God gave man free will,
and yet there is not one verse that teaches free will....not one.

and that God want's all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4),
all kinds of men, Kings, those in authority

that He is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9),
not one of the to-usward that the poster left out...in other words..it speaks of the elect...

and that He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).
all men are to repent and believe, it is a command

Jesus Christ died for all men,
All the Father gives to Him jn6:3737 [FONT=&quot]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/FONT]

and anyone can freely choose to believe on him,
44 [FONT=&quot]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/FONT]
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,458
3,508
113
#29
Hi all! So i go to a private school, and in my Bible class one day, we somehow got into discussing predestination. I wasn't completely following along with what my Bible teacher was saying, but i was too afraid to ask about it since i didn't want to get in trouble....stupid choice, i know. But what he was saying was that Jesus said he "chooses" people to spend eternity with him, and that's not what i believed growing up. I always thought that it was up to you to decide for yourself whether you are a true believer or not and your true salvation. He went on to say that Jesus died on the cross for the lost, NOT for everyone. But isn't it ANYONE who seeks him? I just wanted to get all of you guys' thoughts and this, and I'll be sure to ask next time, haha. Plus I'm so scared of him, he is mean for a bible teacher...he's even been fired before. Hopefully some of you can explain this to me a little better, thanks!
The Atonement that Jesus secured on the cross is being offered to any human being who will believe the teachings of Jesus and trust that the Atonement He secured will without doubt save them from eternal judgement....

But God who knew and knows all history from the first day of creation all the way through to the eternal kingdom of God knows each and ever individuel human that will ever exist before they where ever born and from this foreknowledge of them He,, from the first moment of creation,, already knew each and every human being that would accept His will and be saved and each and every individual who would reject His will and be damned.. So from His foreknowledge of all humans He has predestined the ones He knows will accept his will to be transformed into the likeness of Jesus, that is to have an eternal perfect body and exist forever with Jesus in his perfect Eternal existence..

Romans 8: KJV
28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. {29} For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
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#30
Many of us see it just as you do and many of us see it as your teacher does.

Follow the Holy Spirit within you and don't let people sway you one way or the other!
The Holy Spirit will work in and through the scriptures...not an inner light, or burning in the bosom...
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
43
#31
The Atonement that Jesus secured on the cross is being offered to any human being who will believe the teachings of Jesus and trust that the Atonement He secured will without doubt save them from eternal judgement....

But God who knew and knows all history from the first day of creation all the way through to the eternal kingdom of God knows each and ever individuel human that will ever exist before they where ever born and from this foreknowledge of them He,, from the first moment of creation,, already knew each and every human being that would accept His will and be saved and each and every individual who would reject His will and be damned.. So from His foreknowledge of all humans He has predestined the ones He knows will accept his will to be transformed into the likeness of Jesus, that is to have an eternal perfect body and exist forever with Jesus in his perfect Eternal existence..

Romans 8: KJV
28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. {29} For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
The classic wrong view of biblical foreknowledge....it is WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW.....NOT WHAT HE DID FOREKNOW.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
43
#32
If free will did not exist (as you claim) how could Christ set anyone free from the dominion of sin? The whole point is that those who freely chose to sin will now freely choose to be righteous, in and through Christ.
n6
ALL MEN ARE DEAD IN SIN.....
Jesus frees them from sins dominion, so they are free to serve....no one if "free to sin"....
rom6;
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]17 But God be thanked,

that ye were the servants of sin,

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.[/FONT]
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
43
#33
If free will did not exist (as you claim) how could Christ set anyone free from the dominion of sin? The whole point is that those who freely chose to sin will now freely choose to be righteous, in and through Christ.
Your WILL.....is bound by your nature....
God does not have "FREE WILL""......His Holy nature...is not free to sin
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,281
1,417
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#34
n6
ALL MEN ARE DEAD IN SIN.....
Jesus frees them from sins dominion, so they are free to serve....no one if "free to sin"....
rom6;

17 But God be thanked,

that ye were the servants of sin,

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Thanks for posting a verse that very clearly shows free will.

They were the servants of sin, but then they chose to obey the truth - and then they became servants of righteousness.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#35
Your WILL.....is bound by your nature....
God does not have "FREE WILL""......His Holy nature...is not free to sin
And where do you read that in Scripture?
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
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#36
Chester

Thanks for posting a verse that very clearly shows free will.
Free will is never used in the bible to describe mans will...never, not once..

but then they chose to obey the truth - and then they became servants of righteousness.
No.....the truth was DELIVERED UNTO THEM, BY GOD

[FONT=&quot]but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine [/FONT][FONT=&quot]which was delivered you.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
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#37
And where do you read that in Scripture?
Hab1
12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou

upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Isa6;

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.


ex33;18 [FONT=&quot]And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.[/FONT]

Here in romans 6......servant= willing bondslave......
 
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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,281
1,417
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#38
Chester



Free will is never used in the bible to describe mans will...never, not once..

No.....the truth was DELIVERED UNTO THEM, BY GOD

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
In Romans 6:17 - "ye have obeyed from the heart . . ." - The subject is "ye" and the verb is "obeyed"
Yes, God delivered the "form of doctrine", but they did the obeying.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,281
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#39
Chester



Free will is never used in the bible to describe mans will...never, not once..

Joshua 24:15King James Version (KJV)[SUP]15 [/SUP]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,281
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#40
Hab1
12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou

upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Isa6;

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.


ex33;18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Here in romans 6......servant= willing bondslave......

Great verses - but ???? Not one of them says anything close to that "God does not have a free will"