God’s Sovereignty Decreed Man’s Free Will
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
If it were predetermined that some men would end up in hell for rejecting the Savior, then wouldn't hell have been created for man too? Answer: Hell was not created for man. For God's not willing that any should perish. But as surely as man rejects Christ, that man will end up in hell fire.
If it were predetermined that some men would end up in hell for rejecting the Savior, then wouldn't hell have been created for man too? Answer: Hell was not created for man. For God's not willing that any should perish. But as surely as man rejects Christ, that man will end up in hell fire.
This is called "concordance theology," my friend. It's where you look up the word in English, then back translate into Greek, especially using Strong's . Because, you are talking about θέλω thelo, which really means "to will, wish, want, desire, enjoy." In fact, the word "to choose" is ἐκλέγω or ἐκλέγομαι. Τhen you are using the correct word.GRK: ἀγαθὴν μερίδα ἐξελέξατο ἥτις οὐκ
NAS: for Mary has chosen the good
KJV: and Mary hath chosen that good part,
INT: good part chose which not
Luke 14:7 V-IIM-3P
GRK: τὰς πρωτοκλισίας ἐξελέγοντολέγων πρὸς
NAS: how they had been picking out the places of honor
KJV: how they chose out the chief rooms;
INT: the first places they were choosing outsaying to
John 6:70 V-AIM-1S
GRK: τοὺς δώδεκα ἐξελεξάμην καὶ ἐξ
NAS: them, Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve,
KJV: not I chosen you twelve,
INT: the twelve did choose and of
John 13:18 V-AIM-1S
GRK: οἶδα τίνας ἐξελεξάμην ἀλλ' ἵνα
NAS: the ones I have chosen; but [it is] that the Scripture
KJV: know whom I have chosen: but that
INT: know whom I chose but that
John 15:16 V-AIM-2P
GRK: ὑμεῖς με ἐξελέξασθε ἀλλ' ἐγὼ
NAS: You did not choose Me but I chose
KJV: have not chosen me, but
INT: you me chose but I
John 15:16 V-AIM-1S
GRK: ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς καὶ
NAS: You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed
KJV: but I have chosen you, and
INT: but I chose you and
John 15:19 V-AIM-1S
GRK: ἀλλ' ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς ἐκ
NAS: you are not of the world, but I choseyou out of the world,
KJV: but I have chosen you out of
INT: but I chose you out of
Acts 1:2 V-AIM-3S
GRK: ἁγίου οὓς ἐξελέξατοἀνελήμφθη
NAS: to the apostles whom He had chosen.
KJV: unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
INT: Holy whom he chose he was taken up
Acts 1:24 V-AIM-2S
GRK: ἀνάδειξον ὃν ἐξελέξω ἐκ τούτων
NAS: of these two You have chosen
KJV: these two thou hast chosen,
INT: show which you did choose of these
Acts 6:5 V-AIM-3P
GRK: πλήθους καὶ ἐξελέξαντοΣτέφανον ἄνδρα
NAS: congregation; and they choseStephen,
KJV: and they chose Stephen,
INT: multitude and they chose Stephen a man
Acts 13:17 V-AIM-3S
GRK: τούτου Ἰσραὴλ ἐξελέξατο τοὺς πατέρας
NAS: Israel chose our fathers
KJV: people of Israel chose our fathers,
INT: of this Israel chose the fathers
Acts 15:7 V-AIM-3S
GRK: ἐν ὑμῖν ἐξελέξατο ὁ θεὸς
NAS: God made a choice among
KJV: ago God made choice among us,
INT: among us chose God
Acts 15:22 V-APM-AMP
GRK: τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ ἐκλεξαμένουςἄνδρας ἐξ
NAS: church, to choose men
KJV: church, to send chosen men of
INT: the church having chosen men from among
Acts 15:25 V-APM-DMP
GRK: γενομένοις ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἐκλεξαμένοις ἄνδρας πέμψαι
NAS: of one mind, to select men
KJV: to send chosen men
INT: having come with one accord having chosen men to send
1 Corinthians 1:27 V-AIM-3S
GRK: τοῦ κόσμου ἐξελέξατο ὁ θεός
NAS: but God has chosen the foolish things
KJV: God hath chosen the foolish things
INT: of the world chose God
1 Corinthians 1:27 V-AIM-3S
GRK: τοῦ κόσμου ἐξελέξατο ὁ θεός
NAS: and God has chosen the weak things
KJV: God hath chosen the weak things
INT: of the world chose God
1 Corinthians 1:28 V-AIM-3S
GRK: τὰ ἐξουθενημένα ἐξελέξατο ὁ θεός
NAS: God has chosen, the things that are not, so
KJV: God chosen, [yea], and
INT: the despised chose God
Ephesians 1:4 V-AIM-3S
GRK: καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν
NAS: just as He chose us in Him before
KJV: According as he hath chosen us in
INT: as he chose us in
James 2:5 V-AIM-3S
GRK: ὁ θεὸς ἐξελέξατο τοὺς πτωχοὺς
NAS: did not God choose the poor
KJV: not God chosen the poor of this
INT: God did choose the poor
22 Occurrences
Ἐκλεγομαι has THREE basic meanings:
1. to pick someone or something, to choose (for oneself- making it a reflexive verb) This is John15:19 as below, and Acts 1:24, 15:22 and Luke 6:22. None of these has anything to do with us choosing God, and in fact, some of these verses say clearly, GOD HAS CHOSEN US! It doesn't get much clearer than that. "He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world!"
"καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου"Eph. 1:4
"For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world" Eph. 1:4 NET
2. to make a choice in accordance with significant preference, select someone/something for oneself. Simple Accusative. Includes: Matt 13:20; John 13:18, 15:16; John 6:70; Acts 6:5; Acts 13:17, 1 Cor. 1:27ff; Eph. 1:4; Acts 15:7; James 2:5; Luke 9:35;
3. gather in a crop, gather, Luke 6:44
Not one of the above meanings has us choosing to be saved. In fact, most of the above examples have to do with God choosing! Including choosing us! For example:
"If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. However, because you do not belong to the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you." John 15:19 NET
"εἰ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου ἦτε, ὁ κόσμος ἂν τὸ ἴδιον ἐφίλει· ὅτι δὲ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου οὐκ ἐστέ, ἀλλ’ ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, διὰ τοῦτο μισεῖ ὑμᾶς ὁ κόσμος." John 15:19 Greek
"ἀλλ’ ἐγὼ ἐξελεξάμην ὑμᾶς ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου," where ἐξελεξάμην is the Aorist Indicative Middle, 1st person singular.
Hebrews 10:25 uses a completely different word - ἑλόμενος from αίρέω "to lift, take up" in the present, and "to choose" in the middles. When used with συγκακουχεῖσθαι, a present passive infinitive, it means "to suffer evil together, to suffer with someone. The infinitive is used to explain the choosing.
Neither of these words has anything to do with free will. ἐκλεγω does mean "I choose, select" but it is only used if God is doing the choosing or the church! αίρέω in the middle does mean "to choose" but it is not used in soteriological way in the passages you have chosen.
Always worthwhile to study these words properly in the Greek! I recommend you get Bauer (BDAG 4th edition) and a good book for exegesis is "The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament," by Cleon Rogers Jr, & Cleon Rogers III. I have worn out my copy!
This was a timely post, and you are absolutely right. In order to look at something one must decide and choose to look. So why Spurgeon failed to see this indicates that people are literally BEWITCHED by Calvinism.
The following is taken from the biography of Spurgeon by Arnold Dallimore (Moody Press, 1984), pages 18-20
The minister did not come that morning; he was snowed up, I suppose. At last a very thin-looking man, a shoemaker, or tailor, or something of that sort, went up into the pulpit to preach. Now it is well that preachers be instructed, but this man was really stupid. He was obliged to stick to his text, for the simple reason that he had little else to say. The text was—"LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH" (Isa. 45:22)
He did not even pronounce the words rightly, but that did not matter. There was, I thought, a glimmer of hope for me in that text.
The preacher began thus: "This is a very simple text indeed. It says ‘Look.’ Now lookin’ don’t take a deal of pain. It aint liftin’ your foot or your finger; it is just ‘Look.’ Well, a man needn’t go to College to learn to look. You may be the biggest fool, and yet you can look. A man needn’t be worth a thousand a year to look. Anyone can look; even a child can look.
The following is taken from the biography of Spurgeon by Arnold Dallimore (Moody Press, 1984), pages 18-20
The minister did not come that morning; he was snowed up, I suppose. At last a very thin-looking man, a shoemaker, or tailor, or something of that sort, went up into the pulpit to preach. Now it is well that preachers be instructed, but this man was really stupid. He was obliged to stick to his text, for the simple reason that he had little else to say. The text was—"LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH" (Isa. 45:22)
He did not even pronounce the words rightly, but that did not matter. There was, I thought, a glimmer of hope for me in that text.
The preacher began thus: "This is a very simple text indeed. It says ‘Look.’ Now lookin’ don’t take a deal of pain. It aint liftin’ your foot or your finger; it is just ‘Look.’ Well, a man needn’t go to College to learn to look. You may be the biggest fool, and yet you can look. A man needn’t be worth a thousand a year to look. Anyone can look; even a child can look.
Last edited:
Angela, you can call it "Concordance Theology" is you wish, but theology does not consist of merely looking at the specific words, but looking at them in context and then comparing Scripture with Scripture, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Now even though kosmos in John 3:16,17 is clearly shown to be the inhabitants of the world by both Strong's and Thayer's, Calvinists deliberately REFUSE to accept that meaning, because once they do so it totally demolishes Five Point Calvinism. So how have you personally tried to dodge the plain meaning of this passage? Do you continue to substitute "the elect" for "the world"?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Your correct about both, humans have free will to choose and God chooses those who He wishes too, just because a person ask to be saved that doesn't make the person automatically saved.
you have your own free will to study Greek and learn Greek, God didn't force that on you, I guess it's only comes down to religion when people think that their free will is not their own.
you have your own free will to study Greek and learn Greek, God didn't force that on you, I guess it's only comes down to religion when people think that their free will is not their own.
humans have free will to choose.
Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
It is a promise of God in the scriptures that if a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, that person shall be saved (Rom 10:9-10).
It is a promise of God that if a person hears the gospel and chooses to believe it, that person will be sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).
What makes a person saved is hearing and believing the gospel. God wants everyone to do this (1 Tim 2:4). It is not God's will for anyone to perish, but that all will come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).
Will all do so? No. Why? Because they choose not to believe.
It is a promise of God that if a person hears the gospel and chooses to believe it, that person will be sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).
What makes a person saved is hearing and believing the gospel. God wants everyone to do this (1 Tim 2:4). It is not God's will for anyone to perish, but that all will come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).
Will all do so? No. Why? Because they choose not to believe.
It was always God's plan for Christianity. Christians as a group were chosen in that Christianity was God's plan, not individual Christians. God did not predestine any individual to be saved, or to be condemned.
Jesus specifically chose his 12 disciples. He does not choose individual Christians.
The Bible is very clear that it is God's will for all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), that He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).
Salvation is available to anyone who will DECIDE to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The invitation is to all.
The issue right on is if “choose” or “chosen” has something to do with salvation? The simple answer is No! The choosing of God will always relate to the SERVICE. Even John 15 has nothing to do with the salvation issue.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
...Get confused on this matter...need to sleep.
How many times are people going to quote this out of context. I am going to say as long as Arminian Churches are going to teaching topically, since they teach their members topically or by looking for a verse that backs up what they what to teach. Thier people will never understand that the Bible is written in context, not topically, Joshua starts his inspired speech with the election of Abraham and the forefathers.
“Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and summoned the elders, the heads, the judges, and the officers of Israel. And they presented themselves before God.2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.4 And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.5 And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out.”
The Lord took Abraham and led him, does not sound like much of a choice to me, man is subject to God, God is not subject to man.
“Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and summoned the elders, the heads, the judges, and the officers of Israel. And they presented themselves before God.2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.4 And to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. And I gave Esau the hill country of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.5 And I sent Moses and Aaron, and I plagued Egypt with what I did in the midst of it, and afterward I brought you out.”
The Lord took Abraham and led him, does not sound like much of a choice to me, man is subject to God, God is not subject to man.
Ge 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
KJV
We are created in the image of God; but what does that mean?
Certainly if a person looks in the mirror and claims ' I see God' he/she is either very arrogant or very confused!
So the image of God does not refer to physical appearance.
What attributes or characteristics do people share with their creator?
The best answer I can think of is:
The three characteristics that define personhood. and are shared by all three persons of the Godhead are: intellect, will, and emotions.
Mankind thinks, decides, and feels.
God thinks: Isa 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
KJV
God decides: Ge 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
God feels:Ge 6:6
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
KJV
It makes little sense that God created mankind with the attribute of will unless He intends that we exercise that will.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
KJV
We are created in the image of God; but what does that mean?
Certainly if a person looks in the mirror and claims ' I see God' he/she is either very arrogant or very confused!
So the image of God does not refer to physical appearance.
What attributes or characteristics do people share with their creator?
The best answer I can think of is:
The three characteristics that define personhood. and are shared by all three persons of the Godhead are: intellect, will, and emotions.
Mankind thinks, decides, and feels.
God thinks: Isa 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
KJV
God decides: Ge 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
God feels:Ge 6:6
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
KJV
It makes little sense that God created mankind with the attribute of will unless He intends that we exercise that will.
