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Exactly this is why I have always used scripture to help guide and build up others instead of trying to use it to prove my a point because the difference in the two is that using the word of God to help others almost always works while using it to prove yourself right in debates not only rarely ever seems to bring people to an understanding but because of how people think and believe it makes you appear to be something your not, you yourself have been accused of being things you werent even though all you did was show scriptural evidence so i am sure you know what I mean.
Over and over again I have seen people throw scriptures at each other in the bdf and rarely have I ever seen it actually help the debate itself, my theory is because the scriptures are being used with for the wrong reason and in the wrong way. It isn't enough to show scriptures that seem to fit perfectly in what your trying to get across to the other person, the verses I showed to some may fit my point to the T and completely disproves yours however vise versa is also applied.
I don't think that just anyone can debate complex topics like this especially if either side refuse to budge. If I may ask and this question is to all who stand firm in predestination what is your process in understanding and knowing your belief is correct?
Mine personally is of course the usual process studying the scriptures going to God in prayer and listening for his answer however I also know that my understanding is limited and honestly sometimes I confuse my own voice with his so I take it an extra further I contemplate what I know about God and apply that to my reasoning for my belief.
It does no good to know all the right verses to post and to say the right words to make a sound argument if we forget to apply what we actually know about him. his traits and his nature his ways of seeing and ways of thinking how he even weeps out of love for us. I mean even the verse I posted could easily be seen as cherry picking I simply posted the verses that came to mind that I felt fit perfectly into the point of my argument and yet did it change anyone's mind?
Again though I am curious about how one would respond to my question to Lynn earlier are we to say those who were not chosen and would go to hell no matter what they did sorry about your bad luck enjoy the fiery pits of hell? I mean if one is destined for hell from birth then what is the point of their lives? I can tell you this much if a person is already predestined for hell they will seek a savior and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the enemy
Over and over again I have seen people throw scriptures at each other in the bdf and rarely have I ever seen it actually help the debate itself, my theory is because the scriptures are being used with for the wrong reason and in the wrong way. It isn't enough to show scriptures that seem to fit perfectly in what your trying to get across to the other person, the verses I showed to some may fit my point to the T and completely disproves yours however vise versa is also applied.
I don't think that just anyone can debate complex topics like this especially if either side refuse to budge. If I may ask and this question is to all who stand firm in predestination what is your process in understanding and knowing your belief is correct?
Mine personally is of course the usual process studying the scriptures going to God in prayer and listening for his answer however I also know that my understanding is limited and honestly sometimes I confuse my own voice with his so I take it an extra further I contemplate what I know about God and apply that to my reasoning for my belief.
It does no good to know all the right verses to post and to say the right words to make a sound argument if we forget to apply what we actually know about him. his traits and his nature his ways of seeing and ways of thinking how he even weeps out of love for us. I mean even the verse I posted could easily be seen as cherry picking I simply posted the verses that came to mind that I felt fit perfectly into the point of my argument and yet did it change anyone's mind?
Again though I am curious about how one would respond to my question to Lynn earlier are we to say those who were not chosen and would go to hell no matter what they did sorry about your bad luck enjoy the fiery pits of hell? I mean if one is destined for hell from birth then what is the point of their lives? I can tell you this much if a person is already predestined for hell they will seek a savior and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the enemy
Young hannahcorn let Yahshua/Jesus be your guide study His words and let nobody tell you different.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting." [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John 1:9, "Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess YHWH. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:8, “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi, (master)’ for One is your Master, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]
Psalm 11:4, "יהוה is in His holy temple; יהוה throne is in heaven;His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.”
Psalms 62:9-12, “Sons of Aḏam are but a breath, Sons of men are a lie; If weighed in the scales, They are altogether lighter than breath. Do not trust in oppression. And do not become vain in robbery; If riches increase, Do not set your heart on them. The Mighty One has spoken once, Twice I have heard this: That strength belongs to Yah. And loving-commitment is Yours, O יהוה; For You reward each one according to his work.”
James 1:12-18, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is enticed, “I am enticed by Yah,” for Yah is not enticed by evil matters, and He entices no one. But each one is enticed when he is drawn away by his own desires and trapped. hen, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death. Do not go astray, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of light, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of turning. Having purposed it, He brought us forth by the Word of truth, for us to be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”
Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
Hebrews 11:24-27, “By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward. By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.”
Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before יהוה of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear יהוה speak to one another, and יהוה listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear יהוה, and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said יהוה of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him."
John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”
Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yahshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
Being in Him we can do His will;
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."
This is why it is written;
1 Peter/Kepha 1:13-21, "Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the undeserved pardon that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah. As obedient children, do not conform to the former lusts you had when you lived in ignorance; But as He Who called you is holy, so you also become holy in all your conduct; Because it is written Be holy, for I am holy. And if you call on the Father, Who, without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in reverence; Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver or gold, from your idolatrous way of life handed down to you by tradition from your forefathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you; Who through Him we do believe in YHWH, Who raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in YHWH."
Revelation 21:7, "“The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Father and he shall be My son."
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 3:5-7, “Trust in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; Know Him in all your ways, And He makes all your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and turn away from evil.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 16:8, "I have set [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]always before me; Because He is at my right hand I am not shaken."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting." [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John 1:9, "Everyone who is transgressing and not staying in the teaching of Messiah does not possess YHWH. The one who stays in the teaching of Messiah possesses both the Father and the Son.” [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:8, “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi, (master)’ for One is your Master, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]
Psalm 11:4, "יהוה is in His holy temple; יהוה throne is in heaven;His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.”
Psalms 62:9-12, “Sons of Aḏam are but a breath, Sons of men are a lie; If weighed in the scales, They are altogether lighter than breath. Do not trust in oppression. And do not become vain in robbery; If riches increase, Do not set your heart on them. The Mighty One has spoken once, Twice I have heard this: That strength belongs to Yah. And loving-commitment is Yours, O יהוה; For You reward each one according to his work.”
James 1:12-18, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is enticed, “I am enticed by Yah,” for Yah is not enticed by evil matters, and He entices no one. But each one is enticed when he is drawn away by his own desires and trapped. hen, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death. Do not go astray, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of light, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of turning. Having purposed it, He brought us forth by the Word of truth, for us to be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”
Joshua 24:15, “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve, whether the mighty ones which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the mighty ones of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But I and my house, we serve יהוה.”
John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
Hebrews 11:24-27, “By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh, choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward. By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.”
Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before יהוה of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear יהוה speak to one another, and יהוה listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear יהוה, and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said יהוה of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him."
John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”
Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yahshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
1 John/Yahanan 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk as He walked."
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
Being in Him we can do His will;
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."
This is why it is written;
1 Peter/Kepha 1:13-21, "Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the undeserved pardon that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah. As obedient children, do not conform to the former lusts you had when you lived in ignorance; But as He Who called you is holy, so you also become holy in all your conduct; Because it is written Be holy, for I am holy. And if you call on the Father, Who, without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in reverence; Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver or gold, from your idolatrous way of life handed down to you by tradition from your forefathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you; Who through Him we do believe in YHWH, Who raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in YHWH."
Revelation 21:7, "“The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Father and he shall be My son."
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 3:5-7, “Trust in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; Know Him in all your ways, And He makes all your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and turn away from evil.”[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 16:8, "I have set [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]always before me; Because He is at my right hand I am not shaken."[/FONT]
Predestination is twisted theology, people can quote a verse here and there to back up the theory but the larger pitcher tells me that God is love. Love is not involved when God chooses some and rejects others, If we do not have a choice, it is not love.
God does predestine people to have certain gifts and do certain things (providence), but He never predestines people to hell or heaven. We can choose to believe or reject the truth and receive or reject the spirit.
Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
God does predestine people to have certain gifts and do certain things (providence), but He never predestines people to hell or heaven. We can choose to believe or reject the truth and receive or reject the spirit.
Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
If we do no get a choice in our salvation, if we are predestined to be lost or saved than it is not righteous judgement. ..
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
If we do no get a choice in our salvation, if we are predestined to be lost or saved than it is not righteous judgement. ..
D
Circular reason is not reason! All you've done is said "I know I couldn't explain predestination, because I don't like predestination, so I used scattered verses in the Bible to prove I don't like it, instead of explain it, but you shouldn't criticize me for using verses that don't work, because no verse works, or any given work does magic, and that's what happens in BDF. We use verses that don't work to prove our point and don't like to have to explain ourselves simply because we don't like something in the Bible, sooooo, I still don't like predestination, don't understand it, and yet...."
OP was asking about predestination. Like the word or not, it is a real word with a real definition. If you don't know what it means, then how about looking it up, rather than finding scattered unconnected verses?
As for your question earlier to me? I thought you were joking. Have you not read the Gospel of John? Do you not know Jesus is the bread of life? Jesus answered your question long ago.
John 6:[FONT="]35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”[/FONT]
(And feel free to check out larger context. It's very cool, yet remains this context.)
OP was asking about predestination. Like the word or not, it is a real word with a real definition. If you don't know what it means, then how about looking it up, rather than finding scattered unconnected verses?
As for your question earlier to me? I thought you were joking. Have you not read the Gospel of John? Do you not know Jesus is the bread of life? Jesus answered your question long ago.
John 6:[FONT="]35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”[/FONT]
(And feel free to check out larger context. It's very cool, yet remains this context.)
D
Wrong god. You're preaching the hippie God. (All we need is love Lovelovelovelove.) God has righteous wrath too!
Predestination isn't twisted theology. It is something the Lord told us he uses, unless, of course, you disagree with Romans altogether. Which you can't, since you quote the beginning of it, and skipped the middle.
Predestination isn't twisted theology. It is something the Lord told us he uses, unless, of course, you disagree with Romans altogether. Which you can't, since you quote the beginning of it, and skipped the middle.
When you use Scripture, are you throwing Scriptures too, or is that just other people?
Secondly, you're correct, it is all about your theory, not Biblical exegesis and proper context.
You are aware, are you not, that Joshua 24:15 is not a Gospel invitation to salvation, right? Listen on and learn, please.
Or, do you just dismiss context outright, and conveniently misinterpret it via tradition and ignorance?
Furthermore, you are aware, are you not, that no man chooses their way to heaven? John 1:13, Romans 9:16, James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:1-3, John 6:63, and, that no man is able to come to God, John 6:44? These Scriptures show your error (yes, you're in error, accept it) in mishandling Joshua 24:15, taking it out of context and getting false doctrine. My hope is that this will humble you, that you will finally receive correction and grow in knowledge and truth.
Secondly, you're correct, it is all about your theory, not Biblical exegesis and proper context.
You are aware, are you not, that Joshua 24:15 is not a Gospel invitation to salvation, right? Listen on and learn, please.
Or, do you just dismiss context outright, and conveniently misinterpret it via tradition and ignorance?
Furthermore, you are aware, are you not, that no man chooses their way to heaven? John 1:13, Romans 9:16, James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:1-3, John 6:63, and, that no man is able to come to God, John 6:44? These Scriptures show your error (yes, you're in error, accept it) in mishandling Joshua 24:15, taking it out of context and getting false doctrine. My hope is that this will humble you, that you will finally receive correction and grow in knowledge and truth.
You've totally misused Joshua 24:15. How long have you been studying and still getting it wrong?
And of course it is to "everyone who believes." It is to ad nauseam that some present this "believe" thing or "whoever" thing as if those who know the truth of the Gospel never saw or believed it ever! Ephesians 1:19 clearly shows that we only believe by the power of God that raised Christ, not be inherent ability. Yep, even faith is a gift.
Soli Deo Gloria, not Aeqauliter Hominis Gloria.
And of course it is to "everyone who believes." It is to ad nauseam that some present this "believe" thing or "whoever" thing as if those who know the truth of the Gospel never saw or believed it ever! Ephesians 1:19 clearly shows that we only believe by the power of God that raised Christ, not be inherent ability. Yep, even faith is a gift.
Soli Deo Gloria, not Aeqauliter Hominis Gloria.
Ok, explain this: if God knows all things before, during & after, & God controls/makes all laws of time & space, motion and bodily chemical functions that affect thoughts and feelings; and God decided to throw the Dice, that he controls-orders-directs, that is the beginning of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden; how did God NOT, pre-destined and control everything like a console game etc???
A simple question. This is why I currently believe in predestination. Show this to be wrong & I may follow a different view. But not yet.
A simple question. This is why I currently believe in predestination. Show this to be wrong & I may follow a different view. But not yet.
This is the best explanation I have ever herd. From a commentary by Moses Lard:
From the human side of the salvation issue, I believe it is faith alone in Christ that results in the salvation of the lost (Eph. 2:8-9). In effect, Calvinists have confused the biblical truth that God requires a lost person to believe in Jesus Christ (as a condition of salvation) in order for him or her to be saved by God with the unbiblical error that a person can or does make a contribution to his or her salvation and thereby becomes a cosavior with God. It would seem that to avoid the latter error, Calvinists have needlessly denied the former truth. Just because the candidate for salvation has some presalvation responsibility (i.e., to believe in Jesus Christ), does not make him or her even partially a Savior. God even provides our faith, we refer to it as our faith but it really isn’t, but He does not force us to accept it, that choice is the only part we play in the beginning of our salvation. We choose to believe, choose to repent, choose to confess, choose to be baptized, etc. To say that we are so dead we cannot even make a choice is absurd I think.
ROMANS Chapter 9:
In choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God both chose and rejected with exclusive reference to time, and with no reference to eternity. As to the final destiny of the children, the choice
and rejection had no known effect upon it. It left each as free to pursue those things which would save him, and to shun those that would condemn him, as though it had never been made. Had each changed place with the other, it would not, in the slightest degree, have altered his prospects for heaven. What men wilfully do, not the divine choice, determines their final doom. God's choice, it is true, rendered the outward, temporal circumstances of Jacob and his posterity far superior to those of Esau and his; but, at the same time, it so increased responsibility as to leave the balances of justice level, and the chances of salvation equal.
The passage in hand has had assigned to it a very notorious violation of good taste in theories of election, and, in my judgment, has been greatly abused. It was not penned in the interest of dogmatic Calvinism, and therefore does not offer approval of this offensive doctrine. Interpreted as it should be, it teaches nothing contradictory of other portions of holy scripture, and shocking to our human sense of justice. In it God stands out still in a lovely light, and not as the arbitrary, inexorable Judge, who appoints one man to heaven and another to hell, not only without reason, but in defiance of it, so far as man can see.
12. The elder shall serve the younger. We have no account of Esau ever having personally served Jacob. The reference then must be to their respective posterities; and with this agree the facts of history. For in 2 Sam. viii: 14 it is distinctly said that "all they of Edom [Esau's posterity] became David's servants." Indeed, the Edomites were long subject to the kings of Israel, the latter often slaying them in great numbers. But
the Edomites frequently asserted their independence; and at such times they became most barbarous and cruel. About the time Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus, they seem to have
disappeared as a separate people. After this we hear no more of them.
13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which be bated Esau, in rejecting him from being one of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as not love.
Is it not unjust in God to choose one and reject another, as in the case of Jacob and Esau? Not at all; for in doing so, he acts according to his own avowed principles of conduct, which must be assumed to be right. Accordingly he says to Moses, I will make my own sense of right my rule in showing mercy. It was on this principle that he set up Pharaoh to be king. But all these choices create mere worldly distinctions. They are not choices to eternal life. But If God makes men what he pleases, why does he still find fault with them? He does not do so. He finds no fault with them for being what he makes them, but only for their own voluntary wrong.
From the human side of the salvation issue, I believe it is faith alone in Christ that results in the salvation of the lost (Eph. 2:8-9). In effect, Calvinists have confused the biblical truth that God requires a lost person to believe in Jesus Christ (as a condition of salvation) in order for him or her to be saved by God with the unbiblical error that a person can or does make a contribution to his or her salvation and thereby becomes a cosavior with God. It would seem that to avoid the latter error, Calvinists have needlessly denied the former truth. Just because the candidate for salvation has some presalvation responsibility (i.e., to believe in Jesus Christ), does not make him or her even partially a Savior. God even provides our faith, we refer to it as our faith but it really isn’t, but He does not force us to accept it, that choice is the only part we play in the beginning of our salvation. We choose to believe, choose to repent, choose to confess, choose to be baptized, etc. To say that we are so dead we cannot even make a choice is absurd I think.
ROMANS Chapter 9:
In choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God both chose and rejected with exclusive reference to time, and with no reference to eternity. As to the final destiny of the children, the choice
and rejection had no known effect upon it. It left each as free to pursue those things which would save him, and to shun those that would condemn him, as though it had never been made. Had each changed place with the other, it would not, in the slightest degree, have altered his prospects for heaven. What men wilfully do, not the divine choice, determines their final doom. God's choice, it is true, rendered the outward, temporal circumstances of Jacob and his posterity far superior to those of Esau and his; but, at the same time, it so increased responsibility as to leave the balances of justice level, and the chances of salvation equal.
The passage in hand has had assigned to it a very notorious violation of good taste in theories of election, and, in my judgment, has been greatly abused. It was not penned in the interest of dogmatic Calvinism, and therefore does not offer approval of this offensive doctrine. Interpreted as it should be, it teaches nothing contradictory of other portions of holy scripture, and shocking to our human sense of justice. In it God stands out still in a lovely light, and not as the arbitrary, inexorable Judge, who appoints one man to heaven and another to hell, not only without reason, but in defiance of it, so far as man can see.
12. The elder shall serve the younger. We have no account of Esau ever having personally served Jacob. The reference then must be to their respective posterities; and with this agree the facts of history. For in 2 Sam. viii: 14 it is distinctly said that "all they of Edom [Esau's posterity] became David's servants." Indeed, the Edomites were long subject to the kings of Israel, the latter often slaying them in great numbers. But
the Edomites frequently asserted their independence; and at such times they became most barbarous and cruel. About the time Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus, they seem to have
disappeared as a separate people. After this we hear no more of them.
13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which be bated Esau, in rejecting him from being one of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as not love.
Is it not unjust in God to choose one and reject another, as in the case of Jacob and Esau? Not at all; for in doing so, he acts according to his own avowed principles of conduct, which must be assumed to be right. Accordingly he says to Moses, I will make my own sense of right my rule in showing mercy. It was on this principle that he set up Pharaoh to be king. But all these choices create mere worldly distinctions. They are not choices to eternal life. But If God makes men what he pleases, why does he still find fault with them? He does not do so. He finds no fault with them for being what he makes them, but only for their own voluntary wrong.
It is Christ alone and His grace which saves the lost, not our faith. Faith is merely the means by which I come in contact with Him.
But if I have to believe, and that believing depends on me, then I AM a cosaviour with Him.
If a man has a presalvation responsibility then he is a cosaviour of himself.
But it is our faith. On your basis we choose to believe (or not). WE make the choice. If we do not we are not saved. Thus we become cosaviours with God.
no. not at all. We choose because He makes us believe. Unless we had been born again we would never choose God. We believe because God has worked faith in us, by the rebirth. We are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD. It is because the Spirit blows where HE will that we are born of the Spirit.
But if He did, He did so on the basis of choosing BEFOREHAND, before they were born. Therefore each was predestined to his fate.
No one says that it had, but the prechoice is used to illustrate that God chooses what men do and become.
What men do determines their final doom UNLESS God steps in to save them
You are assuming something which was not true. It was simply showing that God prechose, 'not of works but of Him that calls'. It did not say anything about THEIR final destiny. It was illustrating God's prochoice. It then goes on to apply that to the final destiny of men (eg Pharaoh),
Because you have misread it from the start,
I don't know what you mean by dogmatic Calvinism, but it certainly support the idea of God's prochoice, which it then goes on to apply to men's final destinies,
Ah now we have it. LOL our human sense of justice is no criteria.
What a strange idea you have of God. Man is appointed to hell of his own fixed and determined will. ALL deserve to go. But God chooses men out (the elect) so as to have mercy on them after the counsel of His own will.
Jacob became the head of the tribe, once Isaac died, so Esau was subject to him, but as I have said you have missed the point that God forechooses as He will.
Why is one forechoosing acceptable and the other not? Both are humanly speaking unfair. Therefore according to you God is unfair? But Paul goes on to say, 'is there unrighteousness with God, God forbid. for He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion'.
God's will is paramount
But if I have to believe, and that believing depends on me, then I AM a cosaviour with Him.
If a man has a presalvation responsibility then he is a cosaviour of himself.
But it is our faith. On your basis we choose to believe (or not). WE make the choice. If we do not we are not saved. Thus we become cosaviours with God.
no. not at all. We choose because He makes us believe. Unless we had been born again we would never choose God. We believe because God has worked faith in us, by the rebirth. We are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but OF GOD. It is because the Spirit blows where HE will that we are born of the Spirit.
But if He did, He did so on the basis of choosing BEFOREHAND, before they were born. Therefore each was predestined to his fate.
No one says that it had, but the prechoice is used to illustrate that God chooses what men do and become.
What men do determines their final doom UNLESS God steps in to save them
You are assuming something which was not true. It was simply showing that God prechose, 'not of works but of Him that calls'. It did not say anything about THEIR final destiny. It was illustrating God's prochoice. It then goes on to apply that to the final destiny of men (eg Pharaoh),
Because you have misread it from the start,
I don't know what you mean by dogmatic Calvinism, but it certainly support the idea of God's prochoice, which it then goes on to apply to men's final destinies,
Ah now we have it. LOL our human sense of justice is no criteria.
What a strange idea you have of God. Man is appointed to hell of his own fixed and determined will. ALL deserve to go. But God chooses men out (the elect) so as to have mercy on them after the counsel of His own will.
Jacob became the head of the tribe, once Isaac died, so Esau was subject to him, but as I have said you have missed the point that God forechooses as He will.
Why is one forechoosing acceptable and the other not? Both are humanly speaking unfair. Therefore according to you God is unfair? But Paul goes on to say, 'is there unrighteousness with God, God forbid. for He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion'.
God's will is paramount
You mean dogmatic Paulinism? 'Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world -- God has from the beginning chosen us unto salvation through sanctification and belief of the truth -- Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'. Seems pretty clear to me 
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Paul was not a Calvinist. He understood that he was an ambassador for Christ (as are we). He implored people on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20).
Christians as a group were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, not individual Christians.
-Anyone- may freely choose to become a Christian.
'Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world -- God has from the beginning chosen us unto salvation through sanctification and belief of the truth --'. Seems pretty clear to me
-Anyone- may freely choose to become a Christian.
As all Calvinists do
LOL believe that if you like. It rids it of all meaning, I prefer Paul who spoke of US. 'Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'
No man freely chooses anything
LOL believe that if you like. It rids it of all meaning, I prefer Paul who spoke of US. 'Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began'
No man freely chooses anything
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