predestination?

[BillG]

I couldn't care less if you like my posts or not. It makes no difference if you click the like button.

Will disagree here too. EG doesn't study Scripture, he draws his own picture and his views will never grow into true revelation through careful study or exegesis.



Which is true and he has.



May have? You mean you're biased, unsure, and don't care to bother finding out.



Uh-huh.



First off, I figured you would chime in the way you have as I noted you on the thread. You also assume who is unloving as if you know the person.

Guess what? You don't.

Now I'm going to be just as honest with you.

I've watched you cater to the likes of PeterJens and others of his ilk who preached a false gospel day in and day out, tell us all how nice he is, what a nice guy he is in PM while he publicly slammed others, said they were lost, blasphemed the work of Christ' and much much more. You did in fact patronize the heretic. You defended him when he preached his false message telling others they misunderstood.

No, my friend, we understood it perfectly.

To be honest I lost a vast amount of respect for you and your stance took a hit as well.

The god EG is espousing isn't what Scripture reveals.

He lied about my statements.

He accuses of attacking because the word "ignorant" is used.

I called him on it. You don't like it. To be honest I couldn't care less BillG.

I'll continue to defend the Gospel and nature of God against the false teachings of EG. You'll continue to call those who take a stand unloving and offer a rebuke for those who stand on truth and the Gospel, never making a Biblical stand yourself, and patronize PJ and those of his ilk.

I know you couldn't care less and I expected nothing different from you.
Just so you know I do not cater, I like to discuss.
PJ and I did not agree on certain things but agreed to disagree and talk and ask questions.
PJ knew my stance

You say to me that you have lost a large amount respect for me.
Given your response it seems you had little respect for me in the first place.
So maybe you have lost the little respect you had for me.


You obviously missed where I said this truth applies to us all.

ALL, that includes me, you EG AND everyone on this thread and other threads.

If EG is guilty he needs to reflect and apologise.

I had to do that this morning on another thread.

Thanks for your last paragraph. Now I know what you truly think of me which just shows me that you never truly had any respect for me in the first place.

Never making a biblical stance myself? I think you'll find I do and often back it up with scripture.

Anyway thank you for responding.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know you couldn't care less and I expected nothing different from you.
Just so you know I do not cater, I like to discuss.
PJ and I did not agree on certain things but agreed to disagree and talk and ask questions.
PJ knew my stance

You say to me that you have lost a large amount respect for me.
Given your response it seems you had little respect for me in the first place.
So maybe you have lost the little respect you had for me.


You obviously missed where I said this truth applies to us all.

ALL, that includes me, you EG AND everyone on this thread and other threads.

If EG is guilty he needs to reflect and apologise.

I had to do that this morning on another thread.

Thanks for your last paragraph. Now I know what you truly think of me which just shows me that you never truly had any respect for me in the first place.

Never making a biblical stance myself? I think you'll find I do and often back it up with scripture.

Anyway thank you for responding.

Your brother in Christ.

Wow.. Again, just further proof they will be your freind as long as you agree with then, but say any word of disagreement, and they turn on you!

I think the room is seeing who they are.. They can keep it up. They are just hurting their own reputations.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Salvation being offered to all (gospel is preached to all) does not automatically mean that the effectiveness of what is heard is the same in all who hear.

Of course it is not, somebody responds positively, somebody ignores what he hears, somebody responds negatively or aggresively.

Why is that?

Before we deal with that question, we need to see that if God were electing some for salvation, then His priority -- according to Scripture -- would have been the WHOLE NATION OF ISRAEL. That is why we hear Paul saying (Rom 9:1-5):

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

What was Paul saying? He would gladly go to Hell if all of Israel could be saved!

But the general response of the Jews was to reject Christ, and to reject the Gospel message, so Paul turned to the Gentiles (which was his primary commission anyhow).

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see withtheir eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Acts 28:25-28).

So the question for us is, why was God's grace NOT irresistible for the very people whom He had chosen and separated for Himself? And the answer is because sinners must freely -- of their own free will -- either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel. And the bulk of Israel REFUSED to obey the Gospel.

As to "why is that?" Jesus already gave us the answer, but we refuse to believe it (John 3:19-20):

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

[preacher4truth]

I know you couldn't care less and I expected nothing different from you.
Just so you know I do not cater, I like to discuss.
PJ and I did not agree on certain things but agreed to disagree and talk and ask questions.
PJ knew my stance

You say to me that you have lost a large amount respect for me.
Given your response it seems you had little respect for me in the first place.
So maybe you have lost the little respect you had for me.


You obviously missed where I said this truth applies to us all.

ALL, that includes me, you EG AND everyone on this thread and other threads.

If EG is guilty he needs to reflect and apologise.

I had to do that this morning on another thread.

Thanks for your last paragraph. Now I know what you truly think of me which just shows me that you never truly had any respect for me in the first place.

Never making a biblical stance myself? I think you'll find I do and often back it up with scripture.

Anyway thank you for responding.

Your brother in Christ.

Believe me I'm ecstatic you apologized. Seems you want everyone to be aware of BillG and his righteousness. And of others not up to par with you most especially. Are there any other nice things you've done you'd like to share?

Yes. I get it BillG. You want to blast and maligned me publicly, and you're doing just that (all in Christian love of course). But what is of note you supported PJ publicly. There is no denying that. You gave him a bye. Also you won't answer how that is like Jesus or even true to NT doctrine. Interesting for sure.

You're correct I had little respect after initially respecting you until witnessing several things. Respect is earned and when I saw you patronizing PJ with his nasty name calling, lies (vast amounts of this) heresy, blasphemy then getting petty as you are here with others while you allowed that and wanted us to lend him an ear? Well, to me it was sickening to see so I put you on ignore.

Recently I took you off ignore after PJ left but I've found you're just as biased and myopic as ever.

My mistake for taking you off ignore.

 

[Dai3234]

lol.. Is this what you think it is?? Ok

The people did great things for God. So I doubt they complained after the fact. As I said, I thank God for every time he did this for me, and the people I have witnessed this happen to. That thank God also.

But to force people against their will. By just forcing their will to follow Gods will. Thats ok with you.

lol..

Your not making sense. Nebuchadnezzar acted like he was God, God forced him to see he was nothing, by God intervening.

Whether I like it or not, doesn't matter. Do you think neberchudnezzer liked it. He doesn't matter either. But I'm giving up after today on cc, it's just a non-productive argument platform. Think I'm better off ignoring cc and just reading the Bible more. This is just self destructive.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your not making sense. Nebuchadnezzar acted like he was God, God forced him to see he was nothing, by God intervening.

Yep. He did, Not by forcing him to change his view, but by doing what needed to be done to get him to see the truth


[quote[Whether I like it or not, doesn't matter. Do you think neberchudnezzer liked it. He doesn't matter either. But I'm giving up after today on cc, it's just a non-productive argument platform. Think I'm better off ignoring cc and just reading the Bible more. This is just self destructive.[/QUOTE]

I think Neb was thankful to God. I am not sure what your arguing here to be honest.

 

[preacher4truth]

To be honest to me what matters is...Whether we believe they were predestined or not, for me is not a hill to die on. Jesus died on a hill so that anyone who calls on his name as per above are saved.

Whether we agree or disagree on doctrine is irrelevant as long as it does not detract from salvation by faith in Jesus and confessing that....Then God works his purpose.

...We are all called to like Jesus and walk the way he did. To me that should be our focus.

I took a few moments to rethink through the above. I shortened it by taking out the Scripture portion to concentrate on the BillG portion.

This is the typical brush doctrine aside and "concentrate on Jesus" post. To me at least it seems to be presented as sentimental, and as a super spiritual stance.

But it misses the mark and falls short of the whole truth. It is in fact a misnomer.

We cannot brush aside doctrine, and just walk like Jesus.

Which Jesus? Tell me about him, his nature, character, attributes, decrees, ways. Wait, to do so, you'd have to talk doctrine. What a shame, eh? So, it isn't "just walk like Jesus." There is more to it than that, and typically the Jesus being presented is only a portion of the whole person.

And let me say something about knowing Jesus and who he is. Remember Moses? Recall he wanted to know about this God and made such a request for just that? Do you know what this God's immediate response was to Moses in answer? "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim my name "THE LORD". And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy to whom I will show mercy." Exodus 33:19.

Interesting revelation, right? He wanted to know more about God, so, what is this? Moses wanted to know him, and God revealed himself to him. We see in this revelation that his name and person is not to be separated from his character, nature, attributes, Sovereignty and purpose. But we see many attempt to do just that with Jesus!

Specifically this revelation given to us and Moses shows his sovereign electing grace and his right to reserve mercy to whosoever he wills and to be gracious to whom he wills. This is none other than Jesus revealed to Moses.

Today people call all this "unfair" as seen here, in this thread, in church, in the world. I take issue with that. Serious issue. We don't get to just draw up the part of God we like, and dismiss the parts we don't. That is to take his name in vain and is frankly idolatrous.

Doctrine reveals who he is, what he does. He is God who loves, created, foreknew, predestined, calls, elects, glorifies, redeems. Interesting only some of those doctrines get attacked.

Predestination. Election.

But that is what our God has done, and it shows his glory, declares his attributes, of love and justice specifically and declares who he is and what he is like.

So if we're going to "walk like Jesus" we have to accept all of who he is, all of his attributes and walk in fear. This is biblical, and it is different than presenting a truncated version of Jesus, who is represented as anemic, never rebuking sin, patronizing false teachers and things along those lines.

 

[valiant]

Before we deal with that question, we need to see that if God were electing some for salvation, then His priority -- according to Scripture -- would have been the WHOLE NATION OF ISRAEL.

That is man made thinking. Why should His priority be the whole nation of Israel? Although He has claimed that 'all Israel will be saved' in the end. He just doesn't see Israel as you do

That is why we hear Paul saying (Rom 9:1-5):

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

What was Paul saying? He would gladly go to Hell if all of Israel could be saved!

That was Paul's view, not God's.

But the general response of the Jews was to reject Christ, and to reject the Gospel message, so Paul turned to the Gentiles (which was his primary commission anyhow).

God did however say that 'all Israel would be saved'. He was satisfied on that (whatever He meant) even if you aren't.

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see withtheir eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Acts 28:25-28).

That looks like election to me

So the question for us is, why was God's grace NOT irresistible for the very people whom He had chosen and separated for Himself?

It may be your question, I don't question God. But Romans 11 points out that ALL the elect of Israel were saved.

And the answer is because sinners must freely -- of their own free will -- either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel. And the bulk of Israel REFUSED to obey the Gospel.

and yet all God's true Israel will be saved.

As to "why is that?" Jesus already gave us the answer, but we refuse to believe it (John 3:19-20):

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

ALL men loved darkness rather than light, except finally the elect. This is made clear in Romans 11..

 

[trofimus]

Before we deal with that question, we need to see that if God were electing some for salvation, then His priority -- according to Scripture -- would have been the WHOLE NATION OF ISRAEL. That is why we hear Paul saying (Rom 9:1-5):

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

What was Paul saying? He would gladly go to Hell if all of Israel could be saved!

But the general response of the Jews was to reject Christ, and to reject the Gospel message, so Paul turned to the Gentiles (which was his primary commission anyhow).

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see withtheir eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Acts 28:25-28).

So the question for us is, why was God's grace NOT irresistible for the very people whom He had chosen and separated for Himself? And the answer is because sinners must freely -- of their own free will -- either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel. And the bulk of Israel REFUSED to obey the Gospel.

As to "why is that?" Jesus already gave us the answer, but we refuse to believe it (John 3:19-20):

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

So, we must have some inner quality (to have good deeds, to love light more than darkness) to respond positively to gospel? So we are better than the ones not responding positively?

Where are good deeds from? Where is the love for light from? From us? If from us, we can boast. If not from us, we are getting into area where some are given something and some are not. Who decides whom to give it and whom not?

 

[BillG]

Were you like Jesus when you patronized false teachers with a heretical gospel paving the way for them to be heard and have an audience?

Did that follow NT doctrine? Since not, how is that following Christ?

It's funny because here is what you're doing: you're telling others you know their heart, that you're like Jesus and they just aren't.

Just like you are doing.

You know those people who believe in god (notice the small g) as in you post to EG.

Please post where I have said that I know people's hearts


If memory serves me when I have said that it's been along the lines of " I know your heart is to want to be like Jesus"
Please post quotes where I have said I am like Jesus.
Once again if memory serves me I have said "I want to be like Jesus"

I can't recall me saying to others that I am like Jesus and they are not.
Obviously you think so.

So post where I have said that.

PREDESTINATION has long been contested and until Jesus comes back it always will be.

If it gives you any comfort let me tell you where I am at.

This miserable sinner (you have accused me of stuff but the truth is if you really knew me you would have a lot more ammunition) believes OSAS, Yes perseverance of the saints.

I also believe total depravity.
I also believe in his irresistible grace that calls us to come to faith.

I was guilty of deflect from unconditional election because I have fell foul of "No point preaching the gospel to certain people because they won't accept it"

God taught me a lesson on this one.

A fellow director at work. We employed him because our company was declining.
He built up companies they were declining and said them for millions.
He was not a respector of people. You get in his way your out the door.
I guy in with him quite well.

Anyway it became apparent things were not right at home.
Turns out his second wife was having an affair. I could see his pain in his face.

I was sat at my desk and I felt God say " Go talk to him and offer to pray" I said no because he won't listen.
God says it again so I go. Shut the door.

I talked and explained the gospel and so on.
Then I plucked up the courage and asked if I could pray for him.

He says yes. So I prayed.
After I finished praying he looked at me and said with tears streaming down his face "How can I believe in a loving God who allowed a drunk driver to kill my mother and leave a 8 year old and a 5 year old without a mother and a husband who spent the next 59 years of his life waking up and grieving and crying and kept her wardrobe the same as it was the night she died"

I have no idea whether unconditional election is right or wrong. All I know is that it put me in place when I felt it right that was not right.

I have no idea whether he will be saved or not.
All I know is that at one point I was disobedient. Refusing to pray. Then I did. I'm sure that prayer will not go unanswered.

I'm not saying you have fell foul of this. Just saying I did.

Think of me what you will P4T, come against me as you will.

All I know is that it's Gods amazing grace that saved a wretch like me, and maybe save my fellow director.

I would say God bless you brother but I won't.
Because I feel you do not consider be me a brother.

Bill

 

[BillG]

Believe me I'm ecstatic you apologized. Seems you want everyone to be aware of BillG and his righteousness. And of others not up to par with you most especially. Are there any other nice things you've done you'd like to share?

Yes. I get it BillG. You want to blast and maligned me publicly, and you're doing just that (all in Christian love of course). But what is of note you supported PJ publicly. There is no denying that. You gave him a bye. Also you won't answer how that is like Jesus or even true to NT doctrine. Interesting for sure.

You're correct I had little respect after initially respecting you until witnessing several things. Respect is earned and when I saw you patronizing PJ with his nasty name calling, lies (vast amounts of this) heresy, blasphemy then getting petty as you are here with others while you allowed that and wanted us to lend him an ear? Well, to me it was sickening to see so I put you on ignore.

Recently I took you off ignore after PJ left but I've found you're just as biased and myopic as ever.

My mistake for taking you off ignore.

If you feel I was going at you that was not my intention.
So once again I say sorry.

I inched included myself in my original post.

All I was trying to do was just say let's build each other up in love, not tear each other down.

You go with what you deem right concerning me..

So once again my intention was not to malign you and put you down.

Trust me I know I'm not righteous. If only you knew how much I hate myself and struggle to understand why God would love me.

This guy who has no idea whether I am a good and faithful servant.
Fearful when he meets Jesus and hanging on to works that are burned up yet still saved.

I don't get it for me but I'm sure it's true for others.

Anyway to do what you deem right for you.

 

[John146]

I'm just so perplexed why the biblical doctrine of predestination is so misunderstood.

Those who believe it has something to do with salvation, please post the Scripture. In every instance, those who are predestined are already in Christ. It points to the future of the believer. Not one Scripture states that one is predestined to be in Christ. It's just not there.

Post the Scripture...

 

[BillG]

sadly, many maintstream churches do not teach this, I remember growing up being told only baptists would get to heaven, that everyone else was teaching false teachings, and wer emost likely headed to hell. And we should defend Gods truth at all costs. I grew up seeing people attack instead of discuss. Mastered that form of discussion myself. Until God finally Got ahold of me convinced me to stop following men, and start to study for myself. Come to find many of us believe the same, the areas most disagree are not even salvic doctrines, and when Gods people fight over these doctrines, it gives us and God a bad name.

I was told because I didn't in tongues I wasn't saved.

I was told once when my cruciate ligaments were ripped apart (wrecked a professional football career) because I trained on a Sunday, even though I went to church in the evening.

The same person who said that to me never went to an evening service.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm just so perplexed why the biblical doctrine of predestination is so misunderstood.

Those who believe it has something to do with salvation, please post the Scripture. In every instance, those who are predestined are already in Christ. It points to the future of the believer. Not one Scripture states that one is predestined to be in Christ. It's just not there.

Post the Scripture...

If we were predestined before time began, we were predestined before we were born, it means our future was known before time began.

 

[trofimus]

I'm just so perplexed why the biblical doctrine of predestination is so misunderstood.

Those who believe it has something to do with salvation, please post the Scripture.

"They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."
1Pt 2:8


They disobey the gospel - which is what they were destined for.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was told because I didn't in tongues I wasn't saved.

I was told once when my cruciate ligaments were ripped apart (wrecked a professional football career) because I trained on a Sunday, even though I went to church in the evening.

The same person who said that to me never went to an evening service.

Its sad, you read scripture, and even look at church history you do not see that, The churched gained so many followers, because they loved each other.

do not see this today, just angry people who instead of going out, become inner focused.

 

[BillG]

If we were predestined before time began, we were predestined before we were born, it means our future was known before time began.

Do you not think though that God knows who will accept him?
I do it's just that I do not know who will believe.

That is where I fell foul.

Assuming no point preaching the gospel because the won't believe anyway.

 

[John146]

"They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."
1Pt 2:8


They disobey the gospel - which is what they were destined for.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect (Jesus Christ, btw), precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The nation of Israel was appointed to reject Jesus at His first coming so the cross would happen. If the Pharisees and leaders received Him, then the cross would not have happened. This has nothing to do with being predestined unto salvation. None.

1 Corinthians 2

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Jesus being the Messiah and Son of God was kept in mystery from until after the cross.

 

[John146]

If we were predestined before time began, we were predestined before we were born, it means our future was known before time began.

I disagree with this premise.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you not think though that God knows who will accept him?
I do it's just that I do not know who will believe.

That is where I fell foul.

Assuming no point preaching the gospel because the won't believe anyway.

to me that is what predestined is based on, his foreknowledge.