Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”
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I know you aren't pre-trib. Really nobody is pre-trib since those that are, think the trib hasn't happened yet. It's akin to thinking the Exodus is a future event happening pre-flood. Since these people don't understand what the wrath was and who it was directed towards, its no wonder they are wrong about virtually everything.
I've said this before, your acknowledgement that "much of the Bible and NT is describing the fall in 70 AD" as you put it, certainly gives you a leg up over all of the futurists out there. LOC and I are trying to get you to come the rest of the way.
The Bible is largely the story of Israel and the way God dealt with her throughout her history, from creation to her fall in 70 AD. Every writer was Jewish from Moses to John. Moses gives us a brief overview of events prior to his day devoting just 6 chapters from Adam to Noah, which genealogically is nearly as much time as we have from the NT to today. Moses then spends a great deal of time discussing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the 400 years or so of their Egyptian captivity before he comes into the picture. The rest of the Bible goes from the Exodus to the Promised Land covering the nation at its heights under David to its various lows. The Bible ends with Israel's (heaven and earth's) destruction in terms of discussing this physical planet and its people. We have a brief story of the new Jerusalem and the after life in heaven with God available to believers of any race.
At the time of it's destruction in 70 AD, Jerusalem was the wealthiest city in the world, surpassing even Rome. Titus said this himself when he observed the temple. Jerusalem's pre- destruction population of 1.2 million made it one of the three largest cities in the known world. It's destruction, along with its temple (which had been the symbol of God's power and glory on earth), is the climax of the Biblical account of the history of Earth. There are no more physical Earth prophesies to be fulfilled.
Josephus ends his book with this paragraph:
1. AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventy-seven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem (War 6-10-1).
Thus Jerusalem had fallen a total of 6 times. The 7th Jerusalem is heavenly to which we all belong. 7 represents completeness. The accounts in the Bible are over. Earth has continued nearly 2,000 years since 70 AD with nothing new being fulfilled. The only insight we have as to what plans, if any, God has for this planet is based on how he dealt with it in the past.
I've said this before, your acknowledgement that "much of the Bible and NT is describing the fall in 70 AD" as you put it, certainly gives you a leg up over all of the futurists out there. LOC and I are trying to get you to come the rest of the way.
The Bible is largely the story of Israel and the way God dealt with her throughout her history, from creation to her fall in 70 AD. Every writer was Jewish from Moses to John. Moses gives us a brief overview of events prior to his day devoting just 6 chapters from Adam to Noah, which genealogically is nearly as much time as we have from the NT to today. Moses then spends a great deal of time discussing Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the 400 years or so of their Egyptian captivity before he comes into the picture. The rest of the Bible goes from the Exodus to the Promised Land covering the nation at its heights under David to its various lows. The Bible ends with Israel's (heaven and earth's) destruction in terms of discussing this physical planet and its people. We have a brief story of the new Jerusalem and the after life in heaven with God available to believers of any race.
At the time of it's destruction in 70 AD, Jerusalem was the wealthiest city in the world, surpassing even Rome. Titus said this himself when he observed the temple. Jerusalem's pre- destruction population of 1.2 million made it one of the three largest cities in the known world. It's destruction, along with its temple (which had been the symbol of God's power and glory on earth), is the climax of the Biblical account of the history of Earth. There are no more physical Earth prophesies to be fulfilled.
Josephus ends his book with this paragraph:
1. AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventy-seven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem (War 6-10-1).
Thus Jerusalem had fallen a total of 6 times. The 7th Jerusalem is heavenly to which we all belong. 7 represents completeness. The accounts in the Bible are over. Earth has continued nearly 2,000 years since 70 AD with nothing new being fulfilled. The only insight we have as to what plans, if any, God has for this planet is based on how he dealt with it in the past.
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It depends which salvation we are discussing. There is the spiritual salvation and there was the salvation from the wrath against Jerusalem. In the garden, the original sin caused immediate death (spiritual death) just as God promised Adam that he would die on the day he "ate from that tree." We know Adam did not die physically on that day as he live another 900+ years, so he had to have died spiritually. This meant that when Adam (and everyone else throughout history) died, they did not immediately go to be with God in heaven. Instead, they went to the Paradise side of Hades with the righteous separated from the wicked by a gulf. Thus, this was the condition in the spiritual realm from Adam to Christ.
When Christ died on the Cross He redeemed mankind from their sins, right? He thus "restored all things" meaning he restored the means for those righteous who have died to again be with God (i.e. salvation). Christ went down into Hades and ministered to the souls there. Then in the resurrection, when they heard His voice, these saved souls were freed from their bonds at the parousia of Christ and admitted into heaven. This happened in the first century AD.
In 70 AD when the Temple fell, it would be rebuilt no more. We now have a spiritual temple, not built with hands, where the Trinity reigns. Each of us believers are but a stone in this spiritual eternal temple, both those who have passed on and we still physically alive in the physical world. The change in circumstances that occurred in the after life circa 70 AD is EVERYTHING. It is monumental and cannot be overstated. Sadly there are some among us who think the restoration of all things dealt with animals, plants and lack of thorns. Back to what Paul taught:
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
What has appeared to men? Was it salvation or the grace of God which appeared to all men? This is basic reading comprehension and its like a trick question. If you can correctly answer this question, you will have figured it out.
If salvation came to "all men" (believers) the moment Christ died on the Cross, then why were they told to "'look up' for their redemption" in Lk 21:28? When Christ died on the Cross and told the thief that today he would be with Christ in Paradise, why didn't Christ say, "today you will be with me in Heaven?"
When Christ died on the Cross He redeemed mankind from their sins, right? He thus "restored all things" meaning he restored the means for those righteous who have died to again be with God (i.e. salvation). Christ went down into Hades and ministered to the souls there. Then in the resurrection, when they heard His voice, these saved souls were freed from their bonds at the parousia of Christ and admitted into heaven. This happened in the first century AD.
In 70 AD when the Temple fell, it would be rebuilt no more. We now have a spiritual temple, not built with hands, where the Trinity reigns. Each of us believers are but a stone in this spiritual eternal temple, both those who have passed on and we still physically alive in the physical world. The change in circumstances that occurred in the after life circa 70 AD is EVERYTHING. It is monumental and cannot be overstated. Sadly there are some among us who think the restoration of all things dealt with animals, plants and lack of thorns. Back to what Paul taught:
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
What has appeared to men? Was it salvation or the grace of God which appeared to all men? This is basic reading comprehension and its like a trick question. If you can correctly answer this question, you will have figured it out.
If salvation came to "all men" (believers) the moment Christ died on the Cross, then why were they told to "'look up' for their redemption" in Lk 21:28? When Christ died on the Cross and told the thief that today he would be with Christ in Paradise, why didn't Christ say, "today you will be with me in Heaven?"
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There are many physical earth prophesies yet to be fulfilled.
1) Daniel's 70th week (the trib). Despite your claims, it has not happened yet.
2) The millennial kingdom, where Jesus Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem.
3) the final rebellion, and God squelching it with fire from heaven.
4) The new heaven and earth, with the literal city of new Jerusalem.
There are many "sub-prophesies" contained in each of those.
I know you won't be convinced (for now).
But I'm curious: What is a Preterist's hope? Do you have one?
1) Daniel's 70th week (the trib). Despite your claims, it has not happened yet.
2) The millennial kingdom, where Jesus Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem.
3) the final rebellion, and God squelching it with fire from heaven.
4) The new heaven and earth, with the literal city of new Jerusalem.
There are many "sub-prophesies" contained in each of those.
I know you won't be convinced (for now).
But I'm curious: What is a Preterist's hope? Do you have one?
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iamsoandso,
The answer to your questions can be found here in Heb 9:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
So when did/does salvation come? When He appeared the first time or the second time?
The first time He put away sin.
The second time He brings/brought salvation.
So the question now is, when did/does Christ come a second time? To answer that, ask, "Are souls of Believers still trapped in Hades?"
The answer to your questions can be found here in Heb 9:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
So when did/does salvation come? When He appeared the first time or the second time?
The first time He put away sin.
The second time He brings/brought salvation.
So the question now is, when did/does Christ come a second time? To answer that, ask, "Are souls of Believers still trapped in Hades?"
1) Did you struggle with math in HS or something? How many weeks was Daniel told about? 7 x 70 = 490 years, right? How many years has it been? What does Jesus say in Lk 19:44? They did not know the time of their visitation, did they? Why should they have known?
2) No, the "millennial kingdom" has been going on since 70 AD. Where is the temple where God (and Christ) reign? See Acts 7:48, 17:24, 2 Cor 5:1, Heb 9:11 and 9:24 for the answer. Once we die and are reigning with Him, we need to have something/somebody to reign over, right?
3) Ah, this is the one little tidbit after 70 AD where we have a glimpse of something prophetic after 70 AD but long ago in our past. In A.D. 1071, one thousand years after the fall of Jerusalem, Satan was released from the Abyss, and the Seljuk Turks took control of Judea making travel dangerous for Christian pilgrims. This angered Europeans and in 1095, Europe declared war on Jerusalem and thus began the Crusades—the Battle of Gog and Magog. During the 1,000 years with the devil imprisoned, men now enjoy greater fellowship with God. But the binding of Satan does not mean that the world would then be free of sin. We don't need Satan to sin, see James 1:14-15. Even in Heaven sin was possible (i.e. great rebellion) but without our flesh, sin is easier to resist.
4) What do you do with Gal 4? "...but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." Where is this Jerusalem located and who is in it?
A Preterists hope is pretty much the same as the hope of any Christian. This hope is that when we die, we immediately go to heaven to be with Christ and our Father. This has been the reality of every single Christian (100% of them) from 70 AD until now. You wish for a future second coming to spare you from death. This view contradicts Heb 9:27.
2) No, the "millennial kingdom" has been going on since 70 AD. Where is the temple where God (and Christ) reign? See Acts 7:48, 17:24, 2 Cor 5:1, Heb 9:11 and 9:24 for the answer. Once we die and are reigning with Him, we need to have something/somebody to reign over, right?
3) Ah, this is the one little tidbit after 70 AD where we have a glimpse of something prophetic after 70 AD but long ago in our past. In A.D. 1071, one thousand years after the fall of Jerusalem, Satan was released from the Abyss, and the Seljuk Turks took control of Judea making travel dangerous for Christian pilgrims. This angered Europeans and in 1095, Europe declared war on Jerusalem and thus began the Crusades—the Battle of Gog and Magog. During the 1,000 years with the devil imprisoned, men now enjoy greater fellowship with God. But the binding of Satan does not mean that the world would then be free of sin. We don't need Satan to sin, see James 1:14-15. Even in Heaven sin was possible (i.e. great rebellion) but without our flesh, sin is easier to resist.
4) What do you do with Gal 4? "...but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." Where is this Jerusalem located and who is in it?
A Preterists hope is pretty much the same as the hope of any Christian. This hope is that when we die, we immediately go to heaven to be with Christ and our Father. This has been the reality of every single Christian (100% of them) from 70 AD until now. You wish for a future second coming to spare you from death. This view contradicts Heb 9:27.
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Insults do not strengthen your case. And I actually did very well in math.
69 weeks of Daniel's prophesy have been fulfilled. The 70th is still future.
Because Christ came and fulfilled many of the OT prophesies about him at his first coming.
When we die we are not reigning with Christ. When we die, we are dead. When Christ returns to gather the Christian church, that is when the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, and living Christians changed (made immortal) 1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff.
Satan has not been bound yet. He will be bound in the future, after Christ returns at the end of the trib, fights and wins Armageddon, and sets up the millennial kingdom.
Right now it is in heaven. After the millennial kingdom, at the start of the eternal kingdom, that city will descend from heaven to the earth (Rev 21ff).
That is not my hope. It's not true that when people die, they go to heaven. People who have died will be raised from the dead in the future. Dead Christians will be raised at the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff). Dead OT believers, and people who will come to believe during the trib, but be killed for their faith, will be raised at the resurrection of the just (Rev 20:4ff).
That's simply not true.
No it doesn't.
We disagree on almost everything. I'm firmly convinced from the Bible that Preterism is completely false. You think it's true. The probability of our coming to agree on anything is effectively zero.
You continue to be a Preterist, I'll continue to be a futurist.
Time will tell which view is correct.
69 weeks of Daniel's prophesy have been fulfilled. The 70th is still future.
Because Christ came and fulfilled many of the OT prophesies about him at his first coming.
When we die we are not reigning with Christ. When we die, we are dead. When Christ returns to gather the Christian church, that is when the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, and living Christians changed (made immortal) 1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff.
Satan has not been bound yet. He will be bound in the future, after Christ returns at the end of the trib, fights and wins Armageddon, and sets up the millennial kingdom.
Right now it is in heaven. After the millennial kingdom, at the start of the eternal kingdom, that city will descend from heaven to the earth (Rev 21ff).
That is not my hope. It's not true that when people die, they go to heaven. People who have died will be raised from the dead in the future. Dead Christians will be raised at the rapture (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff). Dead OT believers, and people who will come to believe during the trib, but be killed for their faith, will be raised at the resurrection of the just (Rev 20:4ff).
That's simply not true.
No it doesn't.
We disagree on almost everything. I'm firmly convinced from the Bible that Preterism is completely false. You think it's true. The probability of our coming to agree on anything is effectively zero.
You continue to be a Preterist, I'll continue to be a futurist.
Time will tell which view is correct.
It makes a big difference, God told satan touch not those that have the seal of God in there forehead, thats the election, everyone else will be deceived, no one is saved but he that endure to the end, God will say to many who taught they were saved I never knew you, all we have to do is study the word of God not mans word. God bless
Although Loc, and you, and I, share similar views on the dest of Jeru in 70 ad, I would be very hesitant about aligning myself with him.
You say that "all things" were not fulfilled, and the Loc does.
You see, brother Locutus cannot allow any scripture at all to be fulfilled after 70 ad.. If there is a fulfillment after 70 ad, then the Locutus time line falls apart.
The "everything fulfilled by 70 ad" is based on the misinterpretation of one scripture. Trying to make everything fit/squeeze into that time line just won't work.
I think Loc would disagree.
Even you have made exceptions.
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Consider this,
Rome has returned as a nation.
Israel is restored to military control over Jerusalem, ending the ToG's.
We fulfill prophecy when we become Christians.
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as it was promised/prophecy on Pentecost. Acts 2:38.Those who are far off, that's us. So prophecy is still being fulfilled.
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Brother PlainWord,
When did the time of wrath begin on Israel? (God's withdrawing of blessings and protection.)
It began when Israel rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom, the natural branches were broken off, and the wild branches were grafted in.
Rom 11:20, shows that they were already broken off at the time of the writing of Romans.
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Was the dest of Jeru the end of the wrath against the natural branches?
No, the withdrawing of blessings, as in a relationship with God, did not end with the dest.
Israel had to continue to run from the sword after the dest., and continued to suffer the withdrawing of protection from God. As shown in the woman of Rev 12, where the waters (people) from the Roman dragon flood after her. Well AFTER the dest of Jeru, all the way into the gentile nations.
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How long does the time of Jacob's trouble last? (For all the pre-tribs out there, it's JACOB'S trouble, not the whole planet.)
It lasts form the breaking off of the branches, until Israel is restored to military control over Jerusalem and the ToG's come to an end.
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The time of trouble didn't end when Jerusalem was destroyed, it was really, just the end of the beginning.
Everything doesn't have to END in 70 ad.. That is based on a faulty interpretation of one verse.
When did the time of wrath begin on Israel? (God's withdrawing of blessings and protection.)
It began when Israel rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom, the natural branches were broken off, and the wild branches were grafted in.
Rom 11:20, shows that they were already broken off at the time of the writing of Romans.
--
Was the dest of Jeru the end of the wrath against the natural branches?
No, the withdrawing of blessings, as in a relationship with God, did not end with the dest.
Israel had to continue to run from the sword after the dest., and continued to suffer the withdrawing of protection from God. As shown in the woman of Rev 12, where the waters (people) from the Roman dragon flood after her. Well AFTER the dest of Jeru, all the way into the gentile nations.
--
How long does the time of Jacob's trouble last? (For all the pre-tribs out there, it's JACOB'S trouble, not the whole planet.)
It lasts form the breaking off of the branches, until Israel is restored to military control over Jerusalem and the ToG's come to an end.
---
The time of trouble didn't end when Jerusalem was destroyed, it was really, just the end of the beginning.
Everything doesn't have to END in 70 ad.. That is based on a faulty interpretation of one verse.
