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Location drives prices up or down. A 2,000 square feet house in a slum area would cost considerably less than in an affluent area. We have houses around here that in a more affluent area would possibly get 2x times what they could get here. Its not a slummy area, but its country, rural area. We're about 30 minutes from anything worth doing. Movies, Wal-Mart, really nice steak house, shopping malls, &c.
You may not have heard of the movie 'O brother, where art thou?'. It starred George Clooney. Its a folksy movie and in a scene they are broke down in a rural area. Everything he asked for they said they could have it in three weeks. What he said in reply to that man is reminiscent of how it is here..."Seems to me you're three weeks away from everything!"
You may not have heard of the movie 'O brother, where art thou?'. It starred George Clooney. Its a folksy movie and in a scene they are broke down in a rural area. Everything he asked for they said they could have it in three weeks. What he said in reply to that man is reminiscent of how it is here..."Seems to me you're three weeks away from everything!"
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Father was a pastor for part of my childhood. In a tiny town, one small church begged Father to come pastor. He left his job and the four of us moved the few hundred miles. Because it was a tiny town, he had to do piecework in order to get any pay. Mother never found work there.
The church, which had decently paid the previous pastor, barely paid Father anything. He brought this up, so members brought food the next Sunday. Much of it had already been open. A huge jar of grain had living, visible weevils all through it.
Eventually, Father found a fulltime job. Not long afterward, he was no longer pastor. I have no idea if he quit or was dismissed.
I write all this because most pastors (I think . . . I hope) go to 4 - 8 years of school for their planned vocations. Furthermore, they are expected to continue their educations and studies, in order to do their pastoring and grow.
So, while not all churches are like the one I mentioned above, why would any church expect the pastor to serve and live on a pittance? How could any church expect the pastor to continue education and support a family on less than the area's
The church, which had decently paid the previous pastor, barely paid Father anything. He brought this up, so members brought food the next Sunday. Much of it had already been open. A huge jar of grain had living, visible weevils all through it.
Eventually, Father found a fulltime job. Not long afterward, he was no longer pastor. I have no idea if he quit or was dismissed.
I write all this because most pastors (I think . . . I hope) go to 4 - 8 years of school for their planned vocations. Furthermore, they are expected to continue their educations and studies, in order to do their pastoring and grow.
So, while not all churches are like the one I mentioned above, why would any church expect the pastor to serve and live on a pittance? How could any church expect the pastor to continue education and support a family on less than the area's
average salary (which should include the parsonage, if the church has one)?
D
We're all supposed to be doing God's calling. So, since God called me to do social work, I should do it for free? Tried that. Really hard to make dinner on "free." (Did that too, occasionally, thanks to God taking care of his kids.) Since God called me to do paper pushing, it should have been free? Since he called me to do bookkeeping, that should have been free? And since he called me to help others by writing resumes and doing secretarial work for people who didn't need secretary work often enough to pay for a secretary, I should have done that for free? That certainly would have put me in the hole, since paper and printer isn't free. (Nor is advertising.)
Get real. What you're really saying is your cheap and trying to get as much free out of other Christians as you can.
Get real. What you're really saying is your cheap and trying to get as much free out of other Christians as you can.
D
I did not mean the old western houses... but something like this:Masonry Design: European construction versus North American construction
Of course, I get that skyscrapers etc are not from wood, but I meant houses where most families live.
And I do not say its worse, I just do not understand why are these houses so expensive, then.
I looked at the photos
350 years, and yet that stone you see at the bottom of the front of my house is from local quarries. (I can't remember the name of that stone, but part of its name is "Pennsylvania.") Our old-growth forest are still old-growth, just not as old. Before Europeans came, the forest were thousands of years old. We used the wood, and then replanted. Given the average tree only lives 60 years, I don't think it's a shame to use them before they die natural deaths. But we do have 100-1000 year old trees in our country.
But, again, huge country. When we became a country in 1789, my city was the biggest city in the country -- 25,000 people. 1.1 million today, and the 11th biggest city in the US. Yet, we still have forests around here. The quarry is still cutting rock. Where is our wood coming from? 500,000 workers turning trees into lumber. We have enough wood that we are in second place for exporting it. You work with what you have, and we work with what we have.
Gumbo! <--- a southern meal made of whatever is on hand. Don't we all go gumbo, when it comes to using what is available? Neither one of our countries are going with grass huts, and yet grass huts work in other countries. lol
I want to know where "YET" is, when we need him.....
Seriously, he and I had several discussions about this issue, and he thought that a church should not pay a preacher/pastor at all.
I, of course, disagreed.... to an extent. I believe that a qualified, capable preacher should be paid, and it should be determined the way other wage earners are determined... by what the "comps" are. Many things help determine this, like location, size of the congregation, etc...
The one caveat that I have to this is that the amount should be decided by the elders.... NOT the preacher/pastor.
Seriously, he and I had several discussions about this issue, and he thought that a church should not pay a preacher/pastor at all.
I, of course, disagreed.... to an extent. I believe that a qualified, capable preacher should be paid, and it should be determined the way other wage earners are determined... by what the "comps" are. Many things help determine this, like location, size of the congregation, etc...
The one caveat that I have to this is that the amount should be decided by the elders.... NOT the preacher/pastor.
The underlying issue is whether a pastor [technically an elder with the spiritual gift of being a shepherd (Eph 4:11)] is a "salaried employee" (who should be hired or fired) or whether he has been raised up by the Lord to minister the Word and shepherd the flock as the Lord's servant. The whole business of hiring and firing preachers who come from outside the church having gone to a seminary is not according to Scripture. The pastor/elder/bishops in the New Testament were men who were already within that church, and seen to have the qualifications and spiritual gifts necessary for their office.
This is perfectly in keeping with what is taught in the New Testament, and should really be termed "compensation for services rendered", not the salary of a hired "employee"
Absolutely. And if the compensation becomes a bone of contention, it means that the man is not fit to become a shepherd in this assembly.
It would appear that in the New Testament, the elders who "labored in the Word and doctrine" were to be compensated generously. But that is not the only function of shepherds, and the tragedy is that in most churches the pastors are not really shepherding their sheep individually (as actual shepherds do when tending their sheep). A lot of people have various issues which the pastors are not aware of, and are not helping in trying to resolve, because they want to be CEOs and administrators rather than humble shepherds. Also there are church politics evident in almost all churches to the detriment of all concerned.
This is perfectly in keeping with what is taught in the New Testament, and should really be termed "compensation for services rendered", not the salary of a hired "employee"
Absolutely. And if the compensation becomes a bone of contention, it means that the man is not fit to become a shepherd in this assembly.
It would appear that in the New Testament, the elders who "labored in the Word and doctrine" were to be compensated generously. But that is not the only function of shepherds, and the tragedy is that in most churches the pastors are not really shepherding their sheep individually (as actual shepherds do when tending their sheep). A lot of people have various issues which the pastors are not aware of, and are not helping in trying to resolve, because they want to be CEOs and administrators rather than humble shepherds. Also there are church politics evident in almost all churches to the detriment of all concerned.
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“The median home value in the United States is $205,100. United States home values have gone up 6.7% over the past year and Zillow predicts they will rise 3.2% within the next year. The median list price per square foot in the United States is $140. The median price of homes currently listed in the United States is $259,900 while the median price of homes that sold is $225,262. The median rent price in the United States is $1,599.” https://www.zillow.com/home-values/
Home prices in the United are relatively high because the homes are a good financial investment.
Back on topic: Most of the Protestant churches in the United States do not provide their pastors with a parsonage (church house), and therefore their pastors need relatively high salaries. Moreover, medical and dental care in the United States is extremely expensive. Therefore, a married pastor with two children needs a relatively high salary to pay for even the most basic living expenses. If his church is in an affluent area, and the pastor lives in that area to make himself readily available to the congregation, his living expenses can be, as we often say in the United States, “astronomical!” Furthermore, what brother in Christ should be expected to live on so little money that he has no money to pay for the ‘extra’ things that most of the rest of us are able to afford?
Home prices in the United are relatively high because the homes are a good financial investment.
Back on topic: Most of the Protestant churches in the United States do not provide their pastors with a parsonage (church house), and therefore their pastors need relatively high salaries. Moreover, medical and dental care in the United States is extremely expensive. Therefore, a married pastor with two children needs a relatively high salary to pay for even the most basic living expenses. If his church is in an affluent area, and the pastor lives in that area to make himself readily available to the congregation, his living expenses can be, as we often say in the United States, “astronomical!” Furthermore, what brother in Christ should be expected to live on so little money that he has no money to pay for the ‘extra’ things that most of the rest of us are able to afford?
I Lynn, this is a good example that works don't bring us to freedom. In works there is expectation of a reward.
I hope you're finding the truth that sets us free. "It shall come to past in the day that the Lord shall give you rest from your sorrow and your fear and the hard bondage wherein you were made to serve." And we know that we have rest as we come to learn of Him. It's good not to exact our wages for work as it's uncertain riches and not real.
I hope you're finding the truth that sets us free. "It shall come to past in the day that the Lord shall give you rest from your sorrow and your fear and the hard bondage wherein you were made to serve." And we know that we have rest as we come to learn of Him. It's good not to exact our wages for work as it's uncertain riches and not real.
