Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

[Ernie07]

Sorry Ernie you must have missed my earlier post regarding this.


The Queen of Heaven is older than Catholicism. She is Babylonian and Caananite and The Lord God hates to see his people honouring her vile image.

Jeremaiah 7

16 “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you.17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger.19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the Lord. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

Many Christians and Bible scholars regard the sign of the woman in Revelation 12 to be symbolic of either Israel or the Church, The Bride of Christ. She is the opposite of the whore of Babylon. Most certainly not Mary. Revelation relies heavily on OT prophetic symbolism

Hello Lucy,

Thanks for pointing out your earlier post. I'm trying to respond in order to who responds to me, but it's getting hard to keep track!! LOL!!

Who do you think Jeremiah is referring to when he states "the Queen of Heaven"? It is my understanding from biblical scholars (Raymond Brown, Jospeh Fitzmeyer...) that Jeremiah is referring to the goddess of Astarte who isn't even real. In this case Astarte is similar to worshiping Baal as detailed in Judges. This has nothing to do with Mary and what is described in Rev 12:1

These scholars that interpret Rev 12:1 to mean either Israel or the Church is interesting and although I and the Church disagree I can see the plausibility. Yet again, it comes down to who has the authority to accurately know truth from error? Is it people who believe the Holy Spirit protects them individually or the Church that has an unbroken chain of beliefs dating back to the earliest times of the Church? I side with the Church.

Thanks again.

-Ernie-

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Inquisitor,
Of course

 

[notuptome]

Yes, you are right ... the Catholic Church WAS created by a Man. The Man's Name was Jesus Christ!


Wasn't this the first church service?


Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break ...[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: s, bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. ... On the first day of
the week, we gathered with the local believers to share in the Lord's Supper. ...[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here is a prime example of using identical terms with contradictory meanings. Catholic means universal. Roman catholic means the opposite. The church Jesus begat in His blood is a living organism comprised of blood bought born again believers who are living stones in the Spiritual house 1 Peter 2:5.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ernie07]

Bible Search: saint

Hi Inquisitor,

I thought I did and I came away with the use of "saint" in Dan 8:13 as "saint" was described as "one of the holy ones". Am I missing something? Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

I do not believe in the RCC. How you jumped from THAT obvious truth to everything else you have posited here is... well, gosh, what can I say? Your imagination sure runs wild. I affirm the three Persons of the Godhead, yes. You seem to assume also, that if the RCC is not the true church, then there is no true church. That seems a terrible assumption to make. The RCC did not even come into existence until the fourth century.

Respectfully, I didn't ask if you believed in the RCC. I asked if you believe in a universal church. At the council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. the Christian Church was termed "catholic" (small c to denote universal). This Church was not yet identified as the Catholic (capital C) Church. I'm asking if you believe in the one, holy, catholic, apostolic Church as defined by that council.

Don't confuse that Church with the RCC as that wasn't a delineation at that time. At that time it was simply the Christian Church and all those that called themselves Christians were a part of this Church. Think of yourself as living in 381 A.D. Would you be considered a Christian believing as you do today? Truth is truth regardless of time.

-Ernie-

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Hello Lucy,

Thanks for pointing out your earlier post. I'm trying to respond in order to who responds to me, but it's getting hard to keep track!! LOL!!

Who do you think Jeremiah is referring to when he states "the Queen of Heaven"? It is my understanding from biblical scholars (Raymond Brown, Jospeh Fitzmeyer...) that Jeremiah is referring to the goddess of Astarte who isn't even real. In this case Astarte is similar to worshiping Baal as detailed in Judges. This has nothing to do with Mary and what is described in Rev 12:1

These scholars that interpret Rev 12:1 to mean either Israel or the Church is interesting and although I and the Church disagree I can see the plausibility. Yet again, it comes down to who has the authority to accurately know truth from error? Is it people who believe the Holy Spirit protects them individually or the Church that has an unbroken chain of beliefs dating back to the earliest times of the Church? I side with the Church.

Thanks again.

-Ernie-

Baal and Ashtoreth worship has EVERYTHING to do with the fake Mary who is worshipped by Catholics. That is my whole point! The prophecies are not confined to Jeremiah alone. I was trying to show you where the Catholic traditions originate. Babylon. There are dozens of scriptures. The Queen of Heaven is the title of a false goddess spelled out literally by the prophet of YHVH for you. One of the same titles claimed by the catholic church for it's false goddess they call Mary.

The mother-goddess has been worshipped by every pagan nation on the face of the earth. And God hates it!
That is why you should recognise it from Biblical research. It is difficult to ignore.

Anyone who loves Jesus should be prepared to repent of idol worship. This is a main theme throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. If you can't accept it you might as well throw the Bible away.

 

[Ernie07]

The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10). There is only one instance of the singular use, and that is "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…" (Philippians 4:21). In Scripture there are 67 uses of the plural “saints” compared to only one use of the singular word “saint.” Even in that one instance, a plurality of saints is in view: “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).

The idea of the word “saints” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints: "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).

Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints.

How does the Roman Catholic understanding of “saints” compare with the biblical teaching? Not very well. In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In Roman Catholic teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Roman Catholic practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances, worshipped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone. https://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html

Thank you for that explanation. That does help clarify my understanding of the term "saints" and I see your point, but what still confuses me is what I bolded in your response: Are we already saints or are we called to be saints? I can see where maybe the answer is both, but you really can't be called to something you already are as that doesn't make any sense.

I think the Catholic definition of "saint" is more along the lines of being called to be saints and once that is perfectly obtained the Church calls you a "saint". I don't think there's anything insidious about this as I know some people who think they're "saints" when they are far from it! Haha! Maybe the Church is protecting people from an arrogant attitude of thinking they are a saint without being virtuous. Just a thought.

Just to point out saints are never to be worshiped and Catholic teaching has never professed to believe that. And saints are also called to take our prayer requests up to God per Rev 5:8.

Thanks for the lively discussion!

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Thanks for your respon

Revelation 5:8King James Version (KJV)

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

I think this verse can mean a Lot, not mean that the physical death saint able to hear billion people pray to them.
To me It is a symbolic that in the eyes of God prayer of the saint is like an parfumed that please before God. In this verse No instruction to pray to saint

And your interpretation is a plausible one. It is in these kinds of situations why our Lord built and protected His Church from teaching error. Without protection how would anyone know what was the truth as many would say "to me"? Everyone has prejudices, preconceived notions, and other baggage they carry with them. Humans are conniving and deceitful by nature (our sinful nature) and without protection from Jesus chaos would ensue and the truth impossible to figure out for sure. And unfortunately since the advent of personal interpretation introduced in the 15th century we have truth chaos due to a lack of reliance on the institution Jesus has protected from error.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Here is a "double hit" on a search of the bible! The first and the last matches are both very significant, at this time! I guess all the demons have become saints, based on the scripture that says they BELIEVE!


​Bible Search: demons believe

Great point!

 

[Inquistor]

Thank you for that explanation. That does help clarify my understanding of the term "saints" and I see your point, but what still confuses me is what I bolded in your response: Are we already saints or are we called to be saints? I can see where maybe the answer is both, but you really can't be called to something you already are as that doesn't make any sense.

I think the Catholic definition of "saint" is more along the lines of being called to be saints and once that is perfectly obtained the Church calls you a "saint". I don't think there's anything insidious about this as I know some people who think they're "saints" when they are far from it! Haha! Maybe the Church is protecting people from an arrogant attitude of thinking they are a saint without being virtuous. Just a thought.

Just to point out saints are never to be worshiped and Catholic teaching has never professed to believe that. And saints are also called to take our prayer requests up to God per Rev 5:8.

Thanks for the lively discussion!

-Ernie-

From what I have seen up to now on this forum, those who "believe" are saints ... which, or course includes DEMONS who also believe ... and tremble at the thought of their futures!

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

 

[Ernie07]

Jesus was addressing Peter at the time.

The true church started with the apostles and disciples in Jerusalem. The early church was mostly Jewish at it's inception. The gospel is to the Jew first then the Gentile. Many of the early Christians were persecuted by both the Jews and the Romans. So big elaborate well documented churches were not to be found.

You simply have been indoctrinated in gross error regarding the church by your church.

Salvation is only about Jesus and not the church. The church cannot save only Jesus through His blood shed on Calvary can save the lost soul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And still you refuse to answer, but in fairness there isn't one because the Church didn't believe as you believe. Yours is a belief system according to Roger, which could be different than the belief system according to Mary or George or Sally or anyone else who believes the Holy Spirit protects them individually from error. Even though Jesus prayed for His Church to be one like He and the Father are one, unity and universality takes a backseat to your personal interpretation. That's sad. The fact that you can't validate that Jesus kept His promise and not seemingly care is clearly a stumbling block for the two of us.

What we can agree on is that salvation is only about Jesus and His blood that was shed on the Cross at Calvary. That Jesus built His Church, gave it authority, and protected it from teaching error and that this can and absolutely should be validated is where we differ.

Thank you for the engaging back and forth discussion!

-Ernie-

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

From what I have seen up to now on this forum, those who "believe" are saints ... which, or course includes DEMONS who also believe ... and tremble at the thought of their futures!

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Except that there is no salvation for demons and you are just being deliberately silly.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

World’s Largest Monstrance
This monstrance used for perpetual adoration is 9 feet wide and features the Virgin Mary as Our Lady of the Sign.
Located at the Church of St. Stanislaus Kostka, Chicago.

This virgin goddess on a crescent moon with a sun on her chest has replaced YHVH on the mercy seat.
That is how high the goddess is exalted in Catholicism. She replaces The Lord God.

 

[Inquistor]

Hello Lucy,

Thanks for pointing out your earlier post. I'm trying to respond in order to who responds to me, but it's getting hard to keep track!! LOL!!

Who do you think Jeremiah is referring to when he states "the Queen of Heaven"? It is my understanding from biblical scholars (Raymond Brown, Jospeh Fitzmeyer...) that Jeremiah is referring to the goddess of Astarte who isn't even real. In this case Astarte is similar to worshiping Baal as detailed in Judges. This has nothing to do with Mary and what is described in Rev 12:1

These scholars that interpret Rev 12:1 to mean either Israel or the Church is interesting and although I and the Church disagree I can see the plausibility. Yet again, it comes down to who has the authority to accurately know truth from error? Is it people who believe the Holy Spirit protects them individually or the Church that has an unbroken chain of beliefs dating back to the earliest times of the Church? I side with the Church.

Thanks again.

-Ernie-

Ooooh! Jeremiah talked about "The Queen of Heaven" ... who does not even exist, according to some posts on this forum?

We should take a much closer look at John's book of Revelation, and the WOMAN who was about to give BIRTH to a Child Who was snatched up to heaven? What became of that Child? Who does that sound like, other than Mary, the virgin Mother of Jesus? And what would the twelve stars be, other than the twelve Apostles of Jesus?


Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

 

[Ernie07]

Why shouldn't I? This is the language the Bible uses. It's a basic. It is evident you are not familiar with Biblical terminology.
Catholic doctrine and traditions are to be judged by the Bible not the other way around. If they are wrong, they are wrong. The Bible is the authority.

I believe I responded to a post from Magenta that helped me to better understand the term "saints". As it relates to that topic you were correct that I wasn't familiar...and that's why I'm here to learn.

Quick question...if the Bible wasn't decreed until the late 4th century on what authority did the Church excommunicate those in the 2nd and 3rd centuries? And if you agree that the Church exercised their authority to interpret truth in these cases why wouldn't you accept the other truths this Church also decreed?

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

I personally have never heard of any 73 book bible! Where are you getting that number? Do you KNOW how many books were REMOVED from "the bible" in 1881? FOURTEEN BOOKS were removed!


Why Were 14 Books Removed from the Bible in 1881? | Rocking God's House

When I say 73 books I follow this listing...what listing are you using?

Books of the Bible - Bible - Catholic Online

Thanks.

-Ernie-

 

[Ernie07]

Don't you think it seems kind of unsanitary ... to take words right out of another person's mouth?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. I'm kind of dense!! LOL!

 

[Inquistor]

I believe I responded to a post from Magenta that helped me to better understand the term "saints". As it relates to that topic you were correct that I wasn't familiar...and that's why I'm here to learn.

Quick question...if the Bible wasn't decreed until the late 4th century on what authority did the Church excommunicate those in the 2nd and 3rd centuries? And if you agree that the Church exercised their authority to interpret truth in these cases why wouldn't you accept the other truths this Church also decreed?

Thanks.

-Ernie-

The answer to your question is very simple! Some people decided to become PROTESTANT, and PROTEST against anything they didn't like, or didn't agree with! That is ALSO why 14 books were removed from the scriptures in 1881! I supposed that was a grand admission that religious teaching was all wrong (or at least in severe error) for a mere one thousand eight hundred and eighty one years after Jesus rose from the dead!

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Ooooh! Jeremiah talked about "The Queen of Heaven" ... who does not even exist, according to some posts on this forum?

We should take a much closer look at John's book of Revelation, and the WOMAN who was about to give BIRTH to a Child Who was snatched up to heaven? What became of that Child? Who does that sound like, other than Mary, the virgin Mother of Jesus? And what would the twelve stars be, other than the twelve Apostles of Jesus?


Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

So Jeremiah, is a liar? You call a prophet of God a liar. Then you are calling God a liar. And you use scripture to defend your filthy idolatry. Revelation 12 gives you absolutely no justification to kneel and pray to Mary.

Why must you persist in defending wickedness?

 

[Inquistor]

So Jeremiah, is a liar? You call a prophet of God a liar. Then you are calling God a liar. And you use scripture to defend your filthy idolatry. Revelation 12 gives you absolutely no justification to kneel and pray to Mary.

Why must you persist in defending wickedness?

You need to read my last post AGAIN!


Ooooh! Jeremiah talked about "The Queen of Heaven" ... who does not even exist, according to some posts on this forum?

Did the Prophet WRITE those posts? I DON'T THINK SO!!!