Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,099
13,117
113
58
So your argument is that faith and belief are different?

If so, I will concede to a belief in God alone viewpoint.

Because if you study FAITH it means BELIEF in God.

Believe is trust, faith is trust in God.

This is why when Peter sank Jesus said oh ye of little faith, why did you doubt?
Amen! The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. If you BELIEVE IN HIM/Christ (Acts 10:43; 16:31) then you HAVE FAITH IN HIM/Christ (Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8) and vise versa and the outcome is the same -- SALVATION/ETERNAL LIFE.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I thought I read someone say faith alone wasn't enough for salvation. It appears to me these Scriptures teach the MOMENT one believes they have eternal life.
And we know who received that eternal life when they believed and will be saved when Jesus comes back by if they have works. That's why you have to have works when Jesus comes back. People who have eternal life (Jesus) in them have works of righteousness. They are the one's who will be saved when Jesus comes back. If you do not have works you do not have Jesus in you. You do not belong to Him. You will go into the fire when he comes back. You are a tare that has no head of grain to harvest. You will be burned.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,099
13,117
113
58
I heard somewhere recently, that love is the greatest, also, because faith and hope will not be required in the everafter, once the mortal has put on immortality, and the corruptible replaced with the incorruptible (Who is Jesus Himself). Our hope will have been realized, and faith fulfilled, with the reality of the coming age. Love lasts forever, because God is love, and God is eternal, and will never pass away.
Amen! Love is the greater of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will be the eternal, governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,099
13,117
113
58
And we need to remember that biblical Hope is not our modern day understanding of Hope.

Biblical Hope is certain, sure, going to happen. I am CERTAINLY going to be glorified in Christ(even if I am the least.) Absolutely, positively and no doubt I am sealed for the day of redemption.
Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope.

Faith is
the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
All scripture is Absolute truth. But the scripture you bring up are about service. Faith without works IS DEAD. How can we save a starving and naked man if we don't give him food and clothing?

It is just that NO ONE can find a verse that says," faith without works salvation/eternal life/His gift/His sealing/the new creation is dead."
I asked someone educated in Greek if it's possible that's what James was saying. He said no.

Besides, the context of the passage is justification, not saving people out of their misery. The person who has faith without works can not be justified as being a person who has faith. The absence of lawful works shows him to not have faith.

The confession of your faith alone does not justify you as having saving faith in Christ. Your work does. The person who has no works of righteousness can not justify his claim to have faith in Christ because he has no works that would justify his claim to believe in Christ. That's why we are called hypocrites by unbelievers. We don't have lives that justify our claim to know Christ and be saved. Even they know the logic of 'wisdom is proved right by her children'.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
Unicorn is mentioned 9 times in the OT. And the definition is:

H7214

רֵם רֵים רְאֵים רְאֵם

re'êm re'êym rêym rêm
reh-ame', reh-ame', rame, rame
From H7213; a wild bull (from its conspicuousness): - unicorn.
Total KJV occurrences: 9

and is this really important? Of course I didn't see the conversation so maybe it was.

Everybody already knows it's really this, and we're all too skeered to talk about it: :D

[video=youtube;3nEeoXS18Ww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nEeoXS18Ww[/video]
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Unicorn is mentioned 9 times in the OT. And the definition is:

[h=1]H7214[/h]
רֵם רֵים רְאֵים רְאֵם
re'êm re'êym rêym rêm
reh-ame', reh-ame', rame, rame
From H7213; a wild bull (from its conspicuousness): - unicorn.
Total KJV occurrences: 9

and is this really important? Of course I didn't see the conversation so maybe it was.
joe is right

i had a bunch of deleted posts after the one joe replied to


i was being silly


:p
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amen! Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope.

Faith is
the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Amen, I am amazed at people who base their salvation off of hope in THEMSELVES. In their WORKS, in what they DO or DO NOT DO..

WHat Kind of hope it this? How do you KNOW you will continue to live up to the standard you have set? You can not. So there is no real hope in that salvation. No hope at all.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
As you can see Belief in God and Faith are synonymous:

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him.

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

As you can see FAITH and born of God are the same. And FAITH ALONE overcomes the world.

And who are those who are saved? Notice the present realities:

1 John 2:13
I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
What does it mean to "Overcome the world"? Is it the "World" as in earth, atmosphere, plant and animal life that is evil?

Of course not. It is the mind and teaching of man that is evil.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

To overcome the world is to overcome the "teaching" of the men of World. And whose teaching did the Prophets and Jesus and His Disciples warn about? Atheist's? Buddhists?

NO! God/Jesus warns about the teaching of men who claim to know the God of Abraham.

Let's face it, no one on this forum is going to be "overcome" by the teaching of Greek Mythology. No one here will give "Thor" any reverence. But someone who "Comes in Christ's name", who preaches that Jesus is truly the Christ, that person could deceive someone.

Jer. 14:13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword,(You are saved) neither shall ye have famine (Jesus does it all for you) but I will give you assured peace in this place.(you are secure in your salvation)

14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

This theme is present through out the Bible. It was the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet that killed Jesus. Not the heathen or Gentile. It was the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet that stoned Stephen and killed the Prophets, that threatened to stone Caleb, all the way back to Abel, who was murdered by his "Christian" brother because Abel respected God and Cain did not.

The Pharisees were such deceivers. Jesus called them "sons of satan". They had tricked entire generations into rejecting the God of the Bible and following the one they created. Many actually preach that they were "Trying to please God by obeying Him" but satan's children do not try to obey God, they use God's Word to deceive as the serpent did with Eve. By God's Mercy and belief in the Word's of the Jesus of the Bible, I have been able to "overcome" this worldly preaching. And am trying to share these things with you.

Jesus created the Path, walked in it and showed us the way to "Overcome the World". We just need to "Believe in this Jesus enough to follow His instructions the way Abraham believed in Jesus enough to follow His Instructions. There is no other way.


John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,602
113
Hmmm.. I really wish that the bible wasn't so difficult to decipher sometimes.. lol


Maybe that's why I'm always in a hard place. Cuz I love cucumbers.. lol

What that scripture means is "left in a hard place".

It really is a cottage left in a cucumber patch.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Hmmm.. I really wish that the bible wasn't so difficult to decipher sometimes.. lol


Maybe that's why I'm always in a hard place. Cuz I love cucumbers.. lol
You can download software that's free. e-Sword | Home I use this, and I love to search out meanings. But, there are easier translations. The ISV is free with that software. It's easy to understand and supposed to be the most accurate.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
=eternally-gratefull;3408468]
Amen, I am amazed at people who base their salvation off of hope in THEMSELVES. In their WORKS, in what they DO or DO NOT DO..


So what "work" did someone on this forum create and preach their Salvation depends on it EG? You claim people base their Salvation in works they created. Can you give me one example where someone has created a "work" and then said their "hope" rests on this creation?

WHat Kind of hope it this? How do you KNOW you will continue to live up to the standard you have set? You can not. So there is no real hope in that salvation. No hope at all.
I don't believe anyone on this forum has created "Standards" to live by. Some may follow the "Standards" Jesus created. Some follow the "Standards" created by Constantine and the Catholic Church, others follow standards created by various religious franchises and preachers and authors.

It would be great if you could back up your bold statement with any example of a person who created their own religious standard to "live up to".
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
=eternally-gratefull;3408468]

[/B]So what "work" did someone on this forum create and preach their Salvation depends on it EG? You claim people base their Salvation in works they created. Can you give me one example where someone has created a "work" and then said their "hope" rests on this creation?



I don't believe anyone on this forum has created "Standards" to live by. Some may follow the "Standards" Jesus created. Some follow the "Standards" created by Constantine and the Catholic Church, others follow standards created by various religious franchises and preachers and authors.

It would be great if you could back up your bold statement with any example of a person who created their own religious standard to "live up to".


read your last post again. Then answer yourself.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
The just shall live by faith.

'little' is a relative term. How big is a mustard seed in God's eyes?
And faith is a relative term, hence this debate.

To those who profess faith alone regeneration theology, beware. The total lack of any verse stating such a notion should cause concern in the mind of any honest seeker. This lack of concern is rather telling of the motives of those pushing this belief system. I have challenged many to point out any verse that definitively supports this core belief, as of yet I have seen nothing. The most common response are general statements such as post # 48773.

Maybe it is because they are looking for the wrong phrase. Here is a list of phrases that the faith only sects can search for:

1. it is faith alone
2. it is belief alone
3. it is trust alone
4. it is faith exclusively
5. it is faith and nothing else
6. it is merely faith
7. it is just faith
8. it is nothing other than faith
9. it is singularly faith
10. it is uniquely faith
11. it is particularly faith
12. it is individually faith
13. it is without exception faith
14. it is wholly faith
15. it is entirely faith
16. it is completely faith
17. it is solely faith

Don't limit yourself to one version of the Bible, try using Bible Gateway its faster. If after all of this you still cannot find your "faith only" verse, explain why scriptures such as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1st Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16 etc even exist if we are saved without them.

Isn't it time to take off the "faith only" filters and accept the Bible for what it does say and not what we want it to say?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
So what is it that you believe......faith plus works?


And faith is a relative term, hence this debate.

To those who profess faith alone regeneration theology, beware. The total lack of any verse stating such a notion should cause concern in the mind of any honest seeker. This lack of concern is rather telling of the motives of those pushing this belief system. I have challenged many to point out any verse that definitively supports this core belief, as of yet I have seen nothing. The most common response are general statements such as post # 48773.

Maybe it is because they are looking for the wrong phrase. Here is a list of phrases that the faith only sects can search for:

1. it is faith alone
2. it is belief alone
3. it is trust alone
4. it is faith exclusively
5. it is faith and nothing else
6. it is merely faith
7. it is just faith
8. it is nothing other than faith
9. it is singularly faith
10. it is uniquely faith
11. it is particularly faith
12. it is individually faith
13. it is without exception faith
14. it is wholly faith
15. it is entirely faith
16. it is completely faith
17. it is solely faith

Don't limit yourself to one version of the Bible, try using Bible Gateway its faster. If after all of this you still cannot find your "faith only" verse, explain why scriptures such as Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1st Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16 etc even exist if we are saved without them.

Isn't it time to take off the "faith only" filters and accept the Bible for what it does say and not what we want it to say?