Free will and God's will

[eternally-gratefull]

eternally-gratefullNo...not at all. Perhaps it would be helpful to read the bible before posting such false ideas.We do not tell a perfect God what He needs to do, to be perfect. God is not going to answer to you, it is the other way around my friend....

I do not know if you are new here or not. But I am going to warn you right now. This kind of nonsense will not be tolerated.

if you want to discuss things, we will discuss things, You want to slam people with these silly arrogant attacks, i will put you with a few of your brothers.

I suggest you all look at grandpa and the way he discusses things, He leads to your view of predestination. Yet you never see him attack or bully people.

You all should be ashamed.

I have to head to bed, If you want to repost to my response in a more humble, brotherly non judgmental way. I will respond to you in kind.

 

[Magenta]

instead of laughing...you should now try and grasp the actual definition...you have not done so, so far

the doctrine that all events are subject to fate
or inevitable predetermination.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If jesus did not die for my sins, send the HS to convict me of my sins, Send the HS to help me understand the gospel when it was being shared with me. To show and convince me he was a God who could be trusted. I never would have the capability to repent and believe in him.

I agree with this. It sounds a whole lot better to me than: I chose to believe He exists with my own free will which I was born with and Fred chose with his own free will he was born with to believe He doesn't!!

This phrase/post I quote boxed has attributed all you have that is in any way good, to God.

Now, if God sends the Holy Spirit to help you understand the gospel when it was being shared with you, why would you say: Yes, I see it is the truth and I see my condition and I know that Jesus died for me and that in Him I have eternal life, but I don't care? Would it really have been an option for you to say that?? Did it even cross your mind?? I remember when I met Him with extreme clarity. No such thing even entered my mind. I was on the floor moaning and weeping, and there was absolutely NO THOUGHT that I wanted to say I don't care! That's not what HAPPENS when you encounter God...I'm trying to understand you, but I can't. But I'm trying very hard.

 

[Iconoclast]

FATEalism. A doctrine which states a persons FATE is determined or inevitable no matter what. (Ie, the person has no choice but to chose their fate that was predetermined)


A Muslim is not a fatalist.

A catholic is not a fatalist

An Armenian is not a fatalist.

Many christians who have placed their faith in the living God for salvation are not fatalist. Some, who have placed their faith in God are.

CALVINISM AND DETERMINISM OR FATALISM
It is at times alleged that Calvinism is synonymous with determinism or fatalism. Actually, these two perspectives are diametrically opposed. The former is nothing more or less than the biblical teaching expounded and systematized; the latter is pagan or secular and humanistic. Calvinism views all things as in the purpose and personal control of the sovereign, just, gracious and loving, triune God of Scripture;

determinism is the alleged working of an impersonal, amoral force without purpose or ultimate meaning. Only a gross biblical ignorance, an extreme religious prejudice, or a mental ineptness could confuse the two.
It is the Arminian or Pelagian—the one who believes in “free will”—who is the fatalist. If God only foresaw what would be and then laid his plans accordingly, then three things might logically follow: First, God himself is necessarily relative to [contained within] his own creation and is not the first or final cause and determiner. He is necessarily limited.


Second, the ultimate cause or determination must be chance, fate or luck—some impersonal, amoral force that ultimately determines the issues in the moral and spiritual spheres.


Third, there exists some mysterious dualism and so, an equal power opposed to God within the universe. Such dualism or fatalism—an idea of a limited “god” and ultimate chance—does not square with Scripture, which reveals and declares God to be God and not less than God in the physical, moral and spiritual spheres.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Now, if God sends the Holy Spirit to help you understand the gospel when it was being shared with you, why would you say: Yes, I see it is the truth and I see my condition and I know that Jesus died for me and that in Him I have eternal life, but I don't care? .

We don't know why anybody would say "I don't care" but the fact is that many have said that, many will say it, and many will not be saved. God has designed it in such a way that sinners must either FREELY obey the Gospel, or be damned. God does NOT elect some for salvation and ignore the rest or elect them to damnation. Notice carefully what Christ has said, and believe it (John 3:16-18):

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

eternally-gratefull

I do not know if you are new here or not. But I am going to warn you right now. This kind of nonsense will not be tolerated.

The only nonsense is you trying to dictate to God what he can and cannot do​

if you want to discuss things, we will discuss things, You want to slam people with these silly arrogant attacks, i will put you with a few of your brothers

.

Not sure what you are talking about...

I suggest you all look at grandpa and the way he discusses things, He leads to your view of predestination. Yet you never see him attack or bully people.

You all should be ashamed.
Not sure who grandpa is...the only cyber bully here...seems to be you

 

[SovereignGrace]

And poof! Proof anger grips before controlling it.

He chose to get angry, eh?

I never mentioned him, but the whole conglomerate of those who cherish their beloved free will over their God and His Christ. I have him on ignore, but ppl keep quoting his posts, so I can read them. Re-read their posts. Free will is mentioned more than their God and His Christ.

 

[joefizz]

The biblical God is perfect and never changes His mind.Calvinists know that God has no need to change his mind,ever.
Plan A always works....no plan B necessary

I can't stand it this is a crock,especially after reading what you posted to Eternally Grateful,this is an "atheist" point of view of yours,now God is perfect,but you try to "define him" as perfect "your way" it's like saying "well God can't make his own decisions once he has a mind to do it he has to do it" which is more B O L O G N A,God has changed his mind a fare few times in the bible or as the term is coined "repented".
When the people of Israel made and worshipped a golden calf and his anger was "waxed hot" he told Moses "let me alone so that I might consume them in my wrath and make of thee a great nation" but Moses "reflected" God's knowledge back to him in that it would be foolish and so God"repented"(changed his mind) of what he sought to do to the Israelites,God makes his decisions,"Not us" he isn't God by "our definition" he's God because "he is" or can one forget what he also told Moses "I am that I am" "our definition" doesn't mean even a hill of beans.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have until whenever I have to go back and fetch my mother, hoping for an hour!

Not sure but think this is where I left off.

I see what appears to be a fracture.

I think we are all born blind and that we would remain that way unless He gave us sight. A blind man can't choose what he can't see. He cant see in order to choose it. There should be as many people believing in fairies as in God if we go that direction. Why would one believe God exists but not fairies? Why does a man suddenly see God exists but he still does not believe fairies exist when previously he believed neither of them to exist? It is because he was given the sight to see Gods existence by God Himself. He did not simply choose with his own will to believe God exists and to also choose with that same will to believe fairies don't exist. He makes his judgements by what he can see. He can't see fairies and he can't see God, so his judgement by his own eyes is neither exist.

So the man was given to see. He did not choose to see. A blind man can wish and will to see and he will never see unless there is an operation by a doctor which causes him to see.

So...does a man say, all I know is that one moment I couldn't see that God existed and the next moment I could suddenly see, or does the man say, I wanted to see so I willed my sight into existence?

Haven't even got to the idea of free will yet and already have to go pick her up! Waaaaahh! Be back tonight sometime.

Wonderful post. And Jesus said the same thing to Nicodemus when He said “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."[John 3:3]

But of course, they twist it to fit their free will schema and that they willed themselves to see of their own free will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Play the victim, censure God, erect a straw man. ↑ ↑ ↑

I call this a persecution complex.

 

[joefizz]

I do not know if you are new here or not. But I am going to warn you right now. This kind of nonsense will not be tolerated.

if you want to discuss things, we will discuss things, You want to slam people with these silly arrogant attacks, i will put you with a few of your brothers.

I suggest you all look at grandpa and the way he discusses things, He leads to your view of predestination. Yet you never see him attack or bully people.

You all should be ashamed.

I have to head to bed, If you want to repost to my response in a more humble, brotherly non judgmental way. I will respond to you in kind.

you'll be fine,you're just a little steamed from some remarks and "college drivel" from some,it happens everyone just take some time to cool off and come on back later.

 

[SovereignGrace]

One of two things will happen here.
1. You call yourself out for stating something that's not true.
2. You prove you are a liar.

Which one is it?

Here's the thing you said that was NOT true.

Anyone here a fatalist? He was (passive-aggressively, because he thinks he is holier-than-thou by not directly talking to the person he's angry with) calling me that. I'm not a fatalist. But, hey, if anyone is, maybe he was talking about you.

This guy is so far off the beaten path, he continually calls it CalvAnism. He doesn't know its CalvInism, not CalvAnism.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Wonderful post. And Jesus said the same thing to Nicodemus when He said “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."[John 3:3]

But of course, they twist it to fit their free will schema and that they willed themselves to see of their own free will.

Yeah but...I don't think they are trying to twist things. They are walking with God and learning to know Him better same as me. They really do think they chose to believe God exists. I am just trying so hard to understand how they came to believe this because it was not my experience at all. I didn't just one day say: you know what? I've spent over 40 years believing God doesn't exist. I think it would now be nice to start believing He does exist so that's what I'm going to believe from now on. That isn't how belief works. We can't just choose to believe whatever we decide we would like to believe...the world would be an even bigger nuthouse than it already is!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We don't know why anybody would say "I don't care" but the fact is that many have said that, many will say it, and many will not be saved. God has designed it in such a way that sinners must either FREELY obey the Gospel, or be damned. God does NOT elect some for salvation and ignore the rest or elect them to damnation. Notice carefully what Christ has said, and believe it (John 3:16-18):

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But it is not what you hear from unbelievers, to say: I know God exists and Jesus is Lord and that I could have eternal life. I know all this is true but I don't care. I don't want eternal life.

Instead you hear them say: I don't believe there is a God. (Some even say, I wish there was!)

 

[stonesoffire]

I know this forum gets heated at times. I can't control how any of you will react. You're going to do what you want regardless of asking to keep it civil. Having said that, this is something that has crossed my mind in the past, and has come up again.

How does God's will coincide with the free will He gave us? For example, I can choose whether or not I leave my house tomorrow. I can choose who I associate with. No amount of Scritpure can dictate the fact that God in fact gives us the freedom to choose our lives (both for the good and the bad). If I chose to not leave my house at all tomorrow, would that interfere at all with what God has in store for my life? I know we hand all of our desires and control over to the care of God, but as already stated, He doesn't do the work for us while we sleep the day away.

I know God's Will will be done. Scripture even states "It is finished." My question is, though, how do we have free will on every detail of our lives if God already knew us in our mother's womb? Wouldn't there be some inconsistencies in that regard?

Please don't just quote Scripture if you're going to respond. I would really like some explanations and opinions that go with them. Even though the Bible contains all truth, not all truth is contained in the Bible. A doctor wouldn't find out how to do major brain surgery just by reading the Bible. A mechanic wouldn't know how to fix a car just by reading the Bible. Thank you all, and I pray this can remain civil.

My question is, though, how do we have free will on every detail of our lives if God already knew us in our mother's womb? Wouldn't there be some inconsistencies in that regard?

No, not at all. God is outside of time and knows the end from the beginning.

 

[joefizz]

Yeah but...I don't think they are trying to twist things. They are walking with God and learning to know Him better same as me. They really do think they chose to believe God exists. I am just trying so hard to understand how they came to believe this because it was not my experience at all. I didn't just one day say: you know what? I've spent over 40 years believing God doesn't exist. I think it would now be nice to start believing He does exist so that's what I'm going to believe from now on. That isn't how belief works. We can't just choose to believe whatever we decide we would like to believe...the world would be an even bigger nuthouse than it already is!

I hear ya everyone's "experience" can be different when coming to believe in God/Jesus and the bible,but well actually some like atheists choose to believe whatever but actually to some degree you have to "choose" some of what you believe,like for instant my churches have primarily been Baptist so one could assume that I believe all their beliefs like...women must where dresses,or go to church or end up in hell,but I don't,now do I think these can be good things to do,yes,but I don't think it should be a main focus necessarily,like in my case just about a year or so ago I couldn't go to my church anymore.(no ride to get there anymore)
I actually through out that time "felt more spirit filled" than when I was at my church,and wore myself out greeting people,speaking on scripture on here,helping people understand Salvation and Baptism,and itin wasn't from the mere tradition of "going to church" it was from "learning God's word" accepting Salvation and giving my life over to God/Jesus.
For some,things are different they have to go to church or do something that makes them feel of value in order to be able to function,we have our different perspectives and beliefs but so long as we do right by God/Jesus and endure through this wicked world we shall receive what we have awaiting us.

 

[joefizz]

In regard to this topic I believe I shall simply state that the answer is in the book of Jonah and it's pretty clear how free will vs God's will works out.

 

[Magenta]

Yeah but...I don't think they are trying to twist things. They are walking with God and learning to know Him better same as me. They really do think they chose to believe God exists. I am just trying so hard to understand how they came to believe this because it was not my experience at all. I didn't just one day say: you know what? I've spent over 40 years believing God doesn't exist. I think it would now be nice to start believing He does exist so that's what I'm going to believe from now on. That isn't how belief works. We can't just choose to believe whatever we decide we would like to believe...the world would be an even bigger nuthouse than it already is!

With God, all things are possible. I have not seen anyone deny that God draws us. The way some people talk, even you here, you make it out like some think they did it all themselves. I am surprised that you cannot see coming to believe as a process. I have seen the way you grapple with things and how excited you become when you understand something that someone has been saying for a long time, and adopt some of that belief to augment what you already believe into a greater understanding. You did not just suddenly decide to see it in a new way, nor did you suddenly decide out of the blue that it all made sense, nor did you suddenly decide you would believe what had been being said to you all along, when you had been overlooking it and glazing over it and not understanding it for so long. Somewhere along the line you started surrendering what you thought you already knew to embrace new "information" that expanded your world view, because you finally saw the truth in what was presented.

See that word surrender? You had to surrender your opposition and resistance to what you had been hearing all along before you could accept and integrate the new. Jim earlier was testifying (I love you, Jimbone) and said he did nothing, but he had surrendered. That act of surrendering our self will (not free will) is what is required, and what some are very cognizant of doing in the act of repenting of their rebellion against God, and coming to believe. None of which negates God's part in it! He draws us. He reveals Himself. He loves us with a love that blows our mind and puny ideas of what love is, out of the water. We love, because He first loved us. He offers the precious gift of forgiveness.

Jesus started His earthly ministry with a call to repentance and belief. Why would He go around inviting/exhorting people to do that, if He was going to do it for us? Rhetorical question, by the way.

 

[preacher4truth]

eternally-gratefull,


You are just pulling ideas out of the blue,and these are confused thoughts....you need to do some study before trying to continue...

Yes. Some actual study would help him. It is apparent he has not studied this and is not well read on any given subject or doctrine.

 

[preacher4truth]

eternally-gratefull


yes..I have started to do that with you...keep reading....

Correct...it is quite the opposite...
.

No...not at all. Perhaps it would be helpful to read the bible before posting such false ideas.We do not tell a perfect God what He needs to do, to be perfect. God is not going to answer to you, it is the other way around my friend....

[/B][/COLOR]Again.....you do not dictate the terms to God. he reveals truth to us by His word. salvation is a Covenant transaction.Wrong from the start...fatalism says the future is determined by impersonal forces...

.

Adams sin has locked in all who remain in Adam, to sin , death, and second death...
God was not joking when He declared to Adam, dying thou shalt surely die....
Do not be among those who blame God for mans sin...


or..we can dialogue and come to truth...scriptural truth....I would rather do that...


so do I....we choose all the time....but that has nothing to do with the condition of our will which is bound by our nature...let me ask you.....do you realize in heaven will will not be free to sin?

.
[/B][/COLOR]not if correctly understood...
you are not correct here...that is not what they believe.


if someone disagrees with you, they are arrogant??? I see...interesting[/B][/COLOR]I am discussing things just fine. When you cannot answer you claim the posters are arrogant. That is not the first time I have seen someone employ this strategy...man up..and offer a biblical rationale for your thoughts.



While your trying to find some humility. I suggest you do what you think I need to do. And study,


I think we can let the reader decide who is doing what....try and answer biblically if you can. Your personal attack is not getting it done, especially when you have not even addressed the issues so far....

Yes eg must have God submit to his idea of fairness and criteria then he will worship. The Biblical God he censures and this is a fact.