If we're saved by faith

[Studyman]

I believe there is enough evidence to validate my point and I certainly do not teach my son to live however he wants, then wait until his deathbed to repent and receive Christ through faith. The opportunity for a deathbed conversion may not be there for everyone who puts off repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ till the end.

That's good. But you have to know a lot of people do just what you believe the thief did. I just don't believe that the thief didn't know anything about Jesus until that very moment, then all the sudden, with no fore knowledge, knew who He was and that He was innocent.

How did he even know who Jesus was if he didn't have any fore knowledge of the Christ?


But this is not a hill to die on. Great discussion though. Good topic. thanks for your views on this.

 

[kaylagrl]

No, the chances of the thief on the cross being one of the many baptized for the remission of sins before the death of Jesus is rather slim. My point is that it is an assumption to use him as an example of someone known to not being baptized. The issue of rather he was baptized or not is moot since Jesus Himself granted the thief forgiveness.

Anyone claiming the thief on the cross was or was not baptized​ is making an assumption. Making the use of his story as a proof text against baptism baseless.

Lol,there is no assumption about it,he was not baptized and we're all saved by "Jesus Himself". Should be obey and be baptized? Yes. Are we saved by water baptism? No!

 

[Studyman]

Yes, By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. (Hebrews 11:8) which leads us to Genesis 15:5-6, where God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness many years before offering up Isaac in Genesis 22.

Indeed it is. When Abraham performed the work offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

God said, "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed" because Abraham obeyed Him, but it doesn't say that was the reason why Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness. That is the main point I'm making. (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3).

By following God's instructions, Abraham brought blessings to his descendants and all the nations of the earth, yet Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness through faith, not works.

I preach against salvation by works, but not against salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. We are having a civil discussion right now.

Where people cross the line is when they teach Abraham was saved by works. We are in agreement when we can both agree that Abraham was "accounted as righteous based on his faith" in Genesis 15:6 (and not his works - Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

If Abraham had not obeyed God's instructions, do you preach he would still be considered righteous?

 

[kaylagrl]

I wonder if someone might use this to try and prove that deathbed confessions are valid.

Yes,people do and can get saved on their deathbed. My uncle came to faith on his deathbed. If someone makes a confession and receives the Lord on their deathbed they are saved and on their way to heaven. The thief was saved on his deathbed,it just happened to be a cross.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't know how long the thief was in prison before his sentence was carried out. Jesus picked Peter as a disciple for a purpose. Others choose Jesus, like the thief. Comparing Peter to the thief is like comparing Moses and Caleb. Or the Pharisees to Zechariahs. Apples and oranges.

I do know that prior to his conversion, the thief, along with those who passed by and the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus/reviled Him. (Matthew 27:39-44; Mark 15:29-32) We also see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved before he died and did not continue to blaspheme Jesus. Yet the other criminal continued to blaspheme Jesus, demonstrating no repentance.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

People can try and make assumptions beyond that, but that's all the evidence I need from Scripture to make my point.

 

[kaylagrl]

They are not valid?

The thief on the cross was a deathbed confession what did Jesus say about his confession?

OOps should have read your comment brother...lol

 

[mailmandan]

If Abraham had not obeyed God's instructions, do you preach he would still be considered righteous?

If Abraham would have failed to obey God's instructions, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case. His faith was accounted as righteousness because God knew his heart and knew it was authentic faith, even before he offered up Isaac on the altar.

 

[lightbearer]

I wonder if someone might use this to try and prove that deathbed confessions are valid.

Words out of one’s mouth don’t mean Jack. Only God knows the heart. Let God be the judge.

 

[mailmandan]

That's good. But you have to know a lot of people do just what you believe the thief did. I just don't believe that the thief didn't know anything about Jesus until that very moment, then all the sudden, with no fore knowledge, knew who He was and that He was innocent.

How did he even know who Jesus was if he didn't have any fore knowledge of the Christ?

But this is not a hill to die on. Great discussion though. Good topic. thanks for your views on this.

After hearing Jesus’ words on the cross, and seeing His love and forgiveness towards others, this may have convicted and driven the one thief to acknowledge that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. How many times have we heard about someone and made a statement about someone or something without understanding all of the facts, but then retracted the statement only a short while later after receiving more information? This was a great discussion and good topic. Thank you as well. We actually had a civil conversation.

 

[Studyman]

I do know that prior to his conversion, the thief, along with those who passed by and the chief priests scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus/reviled Him. (Matthew 27:39-44; Mark 15:29-32) We also see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved before he died and did not continue to blaspheme Jesus. Yet the other criminal continued to blaspheme Jesus, demonstrating no repentance.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

People can try and make assumptions beyond that, but that's all the evidence I need from Scripture to make my point.

Like I said, not a hill to die on. But the Thief knew He was innocent, and knew who He was. You say he came to all that knowledge in one minute just before he was killed with absolutely zero evidence that he didn't know of Jesus before this day. I'm not willing to create a doctrine around this assumption without at least some Biblical evidence located elsewhere in the Bible.

You might be right, and I know "death bed conversion" is a popular doctrine in many popular religions. Just seems the evidence is pretty slim.

 

[garee]

That's good. But you have to know a lot of people do just what you believe the thief did. I just don't believe that the thief didn't know anything about Jesus until that very moment, then all the sudden, with no fore knowledge, knew who He was and that He was innocent.

How did he even know who Jesus was if he didn't have any fore knowledge of the Christ?


But this is not a hill to die on. Great discussion though. Good topic. thanks for your views on this.

We are saved by Christ's work of faith according to his three day labor of love that he demonstrated as the Son of man.

I would ask how many words of eternal life a person has to be given ears to hear what the Spirit is saying before they believe God as an anchor to their soul? After all it is the work of God that we can believe Him working in us to both will and do His good pleasure that we must work out as an imputed righteousness.

There is no need to know what he knew before that .We work out our salvation not work to gain it.

The new creature was already sharing the gospel with the other sinner. Christ confirmed that the man heard the gospel as the first work of God working in Him. Jesus said to day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luk 23:40

No mention of not having enough pre-knowledge coming from the imagination of a persons heart. The one source of human faith in respect to the things not seen which God calls "no faith" in respect to his faith that does work in us.

We have little of that faith and is why he must increase as we decrease as he gives us the increase needed to enter paradise.

 

[Studyman]

After hearing Jesus’ words on the cross, and seeing His love and forgiveness towards others, this may have convicted and driven the one thief to acknowledge that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. How many times have we heard about someone and made a statement about someone or something without understanding all of the facts, but then retracted the statement only a short while later after receiving more information? This was a great discussion and good topic. Thank you as well. We actually had a civil conversation.

Imagine that

But there isn't any evidence against the idea that the thief knew of Jesus in prison, understood who he was and had already repented either. There were people reviling against Jesus but it doesn't say he specifically was one of them, or that he changed his mind at the last minute and came to Christ.

So given the evidence we have, it is just as plausible that the thief, like everyone else, had repented, turned to God, and brought works worthy of repentance before being escorted to his death, where he say his Savior and defended Him.

Mark 15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

Where does this say this thief mocked Jesus? "they that walked by", how is this a thief hanging on a cross?

Matt. 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Again, where is your evidence that both thieves reviled Jesus?

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

So we have people passing by, chief priests and one of the "hanged" malefactors railing on Him.

Where is your evidence that the repentant thief started our bad mouthing Jesus, then "changed his mind and repented"?

You said:

We also see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved before he died and did not continue to blaspheme Jesus.

One reason for my belief that this thief knew of Jesus before this event is because there is not indication that he railed against Jesus like all the others.

I might have missed something, can you show me where it is written that he was one of the several that mocked Jesus, then changed his mind? That might be where I am hung up as I can not find evidence to support that.

If there is this evidence, then that would change everything.

Thanks MMD.

 

[Studyman]

If Abraham would have failed to obey God's instructions, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case. His faith was accounted as righteousness because God knew his heart and knew it was authentic faith, even before he offered up Isaac on the altar.

So would you characterize Eve's disobedience and Cain's and Ham's as a lack of Faith, or as "Faith" in something other than God?

 

[mailmandan]

One reason for my belief that this thief knew of Jesus before this event is because there is not indication that he railed against Jesus like all the others.

I might have missed something, can you show me where it is written that he was one of the several that mocked Jesus, then changed his mind? That might be where I am hung up as I can not find evidence to support that.

If there is this evidence, then that would change everything.

Thanks MMD.

Matthew 27:38 - Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.39 - And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, 42 “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.

Then afterwards, one of the criminals repented "changed his mind" - Luke 23:39-43

 

[Joseppi]

So would you characterize Eve's disobedience and Cain's and Ham's as a lack of Faith, or as "Faith" in something other than God?

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[mailmandan]

So would you characterize Eve's disobedience and Cain's and Ham's as a lack of Faith, or as "Faith" in something other than God?

Lack of faith in God. In regards to Cain and Abel, Abel's faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous (Hebrews 11:4). His offering substantiated his faith (James 2:18).

Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and Cain did not. Cain's improper sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering proved something about his faith that was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.

 

[Studyman]

Matthew 27:38 - Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.39 - And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.” 41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, 42 “He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.

Then afterwards, one of the criminals repented "changed his mind" - Luke 23:39-43

Well, I guess that one "s" in a gospel which didn't even mention the repentant thief is the defining key to this disagreement.

I didn't catch that.

Thanks for showing this to me. I'll have to consider this to be sure.

 

[garee]

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

That's the faith of God that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. .He cannot deny his own self if he began the good work he will finish it to the end of receiving our new incorruptible bodies..

What if some believe not as he works in them according to His work of faith ? Will it make his source of faith without work?

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the "faith of God" without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; asitis written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:3

This new faith freely given to us is not of our own selves as if we were a our own source of faith and not his master piece that he alone created .

 

[Studyman]

Lack of faith in God. In regards to Cain and Abel, Abel's faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous (Hebrews 11:4). His offering substantiated his faith (James 2:18).

Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and Cain did not. Cain's improper sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering proved something about his faith that was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.

I agree. Abel and Abraham showed their "Faith" by their "righteous Deeds" while Cain and Eve and Ham showed their lack of faith by their "unrighteous deeds". That lines of with scripture just fine.

Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Rom. 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Now we just have to let God define "righteousness" and "Truth" and we should be all set.

 

[Joseppi]

That's the faith of God that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. .He cannot deny his own self if he began the good work he will finish it to the end of receiving our new incorruptible bodies..

What if some believe not as he works in them according to His work of faith ? Will it make his source of faith without work?

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the "faith of God" without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Rom 3:3

This new faith freely given to us is not of our own selves as if we were a our own source of faith and not his master piece that he alone created .

Can you clarify your point? thanks.