Not By Works

[Ralph-]

saved is saved......faith is what saves a man...and after salvation if one walks disobedient they are WHIPPED....GOD does not whip FAITHFUL SONS, but rather UNFAITHFUL REBELLIOUS SONS.....

You see, decontroversal, if you people really believed this you would not be trying to justify the fruitless, worksless life. You would know that God's people are changed, even if it means Him beating you over the head with all kinds of trials to get you to change.

If you were a real believer, and God was doing this, because you were a real believer, you would know that true believers can not live in their old lives because God would see to it through suffering that you be changed. Instead we see so many Christians today justifying sin in the Christian with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation' argument. But if they were really saved and belonged to the Lord they'd know you can't be saved and live the life you people are defending here, one of living in sin and justifying it with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation' argument.

Works do matter to salvation. They show you belong to the Lord and are saved. No works means you are a bastard son and do not belong to him and so he has no obligation to chastise you and push you into growing up. Not growing up and not changing shows He is not your heavenly Father.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow too many pages.. Got to far behind again..lol

 

[Ralph-]

Why do YOU need to know?

So you can know for sure you're really born again, not just a lip service hypocrite. That's why.

If you are not changed and changing you do not belong to the Lord. You just think you do. And chances are you think you are saved because you have been deceived by a twisted 'salvation is not by works and you can't lose your salvation' ear tickling doctrine. Your life shows if you are really saved or not for those arguments to even matter in the first place.

(you=anybody)

 

[stonesoffire]

Wow too many pages.. Got to far behind again..lol

me too. Always behind..

Am in conferences this week. Won't be here much.

 

[dcontroversal]

How is only have 'one piece of fruit' not still being in your old life?

But we already know your answer to my question.


You're saying it doesn't matter how you live after you get saved, even if all you have is one piece of fruit. You can't evade this by saying you mean purposely vs. not purposely living in your old life. Living in your old life is living in your old life no matter how you slice it.

The person who is unchanged is unsaved. John said the person who practices sin is not born again (1 John 3:8). This is to be contrasted with saved people who still sin (1 John 2:1). There is a distinct difference.

Just the fact that you try to quantify fruitful works shows you do not know about walking in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is a change of character, not a list of times you did right. Changed/ changing people are saved people. Unchanged/ unchanging people are not saved.

No, I am not saying that and the fact that you cannot be honest about anything written proves who leads you.....and your view denies a plethora of verses that speak to genuine believers and the testimony of the word about their lives......Ralph, you really should quit lying and or embellishing what we write about.....read Proverbs 6.......pay particular attention to what God has to say about a lying tongue......

 

[dcontroversal]

You see, decontroversal, if you people really believed this you would not be trying to justify the fruitless, worksless life. You would know that God's people are changed, even if it means Him beating you over the head with all kinds of trials to get you to change.

If you were a real believer, and God was doing this, because you were a real believer, you would know that true believers can not live in their old lives because God would see to it through suffering that you be changed. Instead we see so many Christians today justifying sin in the Christian with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation' argument. But if they were really saved and belonged to the Lord they'd know you can't be saved and live the life you people are defending here, one of living in sin and justifying it with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation' argument.

Works do matter to salvation. They show you belong to the Lord and are saved. No works means you are a bastard son and do not belong to him and so he has no obligation to chastise you and push you into growing up. Not growing up and not changing shows He is not your heavenly Father.

If you really understood English you would not lie so much about what we say....the same issues that your pal had....no honesty about what this thread is about and or what is being said....just assumptions and embellished bloviating....

 

[dcontroversal]

WHO ARE YOU TRYING TO FOOL HERE? I SAID YOU HAVE TO ANSWER WITH A YES OR NO BEFORE SUPPORTING IT WITH SCRIPTURES. NOW DO YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO TRUST YOU AND YOUR DECEIPTFUL "WALKING DEAD" DRIVEL WHEN YOU INTENTIONALLY REFUSE TO ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION WITH A YES OR NO. CAN YOU BE MAN ENOUGH WITH HONOR AND DIGNITY ESP. AS A MARINE OFFICER STAND YOUR GROUND AND ANSWER MY QUESTIONS WITH A YES OR NO OR ADMIT YOUR MISTAKE AS A SIGN OF YOUR HUMILITY AND TRUTHFULNESS?

I answered with scripture take it up with God and trust JESUS before it is too late....quit lying and falsely accusing.....<---your works belie one who does not know the Lord

 

[Ralph-]

Which is worse

A false teacher who comes in as religious and does all these religious works and appears clean on the outside (the people NNM were talking about)

or the false teacher who has no fruit (the people you talk about)

Are they not both as evil as the other?

What about the person who "has suffered in the flesh (and has) ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God"-1 Peter 4:1-2? Or the people with the fourth kind of soil "who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance"-Luke 8:15?

As soon as a person even dare suggest they are among those they get branded an unbelieving, unsaved pharisee working for their salvation. It's obvious this happens because the people who bash them are themselves still living in sin. It's very obvious.

That is the true 'Cainology' being taught here. Cain hated and killed his brother "because his deeds were evil, and his brothers were righteous"-1 John 3:12. The contempt in this thread for the righteous life and those who live it is the real 'Cainology' being pushed here.

People who live in righteousness are born again. People who do not are not born again. Works do matter. They show if you belong to God or not.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is what I was thinking also when he wouldn't answer my question.

I have answered everyone of your question....man the more you lie the more you prove that your self saving dogma has not saved you....

 

[gb9]

So you can know for sure you're really born again, not just a lip service hypocrite. That's why.

If you are not changed and changing you do not belong to the Lord. You just think you do. And chances are you think you are saved because you have been deceived by a twisted 'salvation is not by works and you can't lose your salvation' ear tickling doctrine. Your life shows if you are really saved or not for those arguments to even matter in the first place.

(you=anybody)

go read the last chapter of John's Gospel, the conversation with Jesus and Peter, and note how Jesus answered Peter when Peter asked about John.

it is not your place to judge another's relationship with the Lord. God knows the heart. you do not. God can rightly judge. you can't.

 

[John146]

So you can know for sure you're really born again, not just a lip service hypocrite. That's why.

If you are not changed and changing you do not belong to the Lord. You just think you do. And chances are you think you are saved because you have been deceived by a twisted 'salvation is not by works and you can't lose your salvation' ear tickling doctrine. Your life shows if you are really saved or not for those arguments to even matter in the first place.

(you=anybody)

There are believers who have no bible, no discipleship whatsoever, no brethren or church around them. They are surrounded by darkness. Will they really grow in their knowledge and faith and continue to do works of obedience throughout their life? Will they really live out the word of truth and increase in faith?

 

[dcontroversal]

Your wrong in your assumptions.

DC, Myself and all the people you are arguing with BELIEVE what you just said.

Yet you keep lieing about them saying they do not believe it, then defend yourself when people point it out to you.

AMEN....have you noticed that the 4 main people in this thread that promote a works, self saving dogma cannot help but misrepresent the truth, embellish what we say and flat fib about what we say and or write.....and they all claim to be saved.....I have not seen as much deception as I have by those who claim works as part of the equation.....

 

[Ralph-]

go read the last chapter of John's Gospel, the conversation with Jesus and Peter, and note how Jesus answered Peter when Peter asked about John.

it is not your place to judge another's relationship with the Lord. God knows the heart. you do not. God can rightly judge. you can't.

Someday you'll have to start listening.

I have the right to think who is a Christian and who is not.

I don't get to judge who goes to hell and who does not. I can only think for myself who I'm going to trust as a brother/sister and who I am not. I have this Biblical right. Jesus said so. Paul said so. John said so. And I do that on the basis of whether or not they are living for Christ, not just talking up a good sermon.

I have no obligation to receive a person as a brother or sister who is a hypocrite.

 

[garee]

Instead we see so many Christians today justifying sin in the Christian with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation' argument.
We are justified by the works of Christ from those works we receive His grace frelly.

But if they were really saved and belonged to the Lord they'd know you can't be saved and live the life you people are defending here, one of living in sin and justifying it with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation'argument.

The Spirit life we are defending is the life of Christ, as we defend his work of faith it works in us to defends us .

Christ is the just and justifier of our new faith.

If he has begun that good work in us he will finisher it to the end .

He is our confidence ,we are to put no confidence in flesh that could never profit for salvation. Even the Son of man, Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for nothing.

Who is your confidence? Who will pay the eternal wage next time you deny Christ in unbelief?

As we are informed in Hebrew 6.. better things accompany salvation ..things called actual salvation the redemption of our souls .Not a kick start places a person in the garden before Adam and Eve violated one commandment .

The wage remains the same one sin = eternal damnation.Violate one a person will be found guilty of the whole. Its not temporal separation . five minutes in the corner.

 

[dcontroversal]

If you wish to join the deceivers and liars in this thread who constantly accuse of things not said....be my guest....all it does is devalue any an all things you have to say......serious.....

Your preaching that I have nothing to do with my Christian Walk is popular to be sure. I mean, what a God right. Just say His name and presto, no more responsibility for our actions. Your Jesus does it all. "come as you are". And if you try and study as instructed, and obey as instructed, you are actually disqualifying yourself from His Kingdom. I can see why so many people would reject God's Salvation plan and be tricked into following yours. But I'm going to stick with the Word of God, unpopular as this is with Mainstream Christianity.

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


1 Cor. 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Matt. 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.


1 Thess. 212 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

1 Tim. 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

I know your preaching Decon. It is widespread to be sure and follow by billions in one form or another. But your religion forces me to choose between the words and teaching of men and their worldly accepted religion with their Great High Days and universally known image of the Christian God, and the Word's of the God of Abraham who became a man to show me the narrow Path to eternal life. Although it places me in the minority, I have chosen God's word over your Mainstream Religious doctrines and traditions.

No offence!


As for Abraham, he didn't have the Levitical "Law of Works", Levi wasn't even born yet. How could he be justified by the Levitical Laws of justification? But he did have God's Laws.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Had Abraham done as the Pharisees and rejected God's Instructions and created his own, would he be included in the Hebrews Faith Chapter? In fact, had any of those in Heb. 11, created their own Laws and rejected God's as did the Pharisees, they wouldn't be included in the Faith Chapter.

Abraham believed in God enough to follow His instructions. That is why God said He blessed him. That is the Faith of Abraham.

I am not going to throw all this truth away so I can be part of a huge religious social club.

God's Word means something Decon. Not just the few scriptures you use to defend your religious traditions, but ALL of His Words.

 

[stonesoffire]

You see, decontroversal, if you people really believed this you would not be trying to justify the fruitless, worksless life. You would know that God's people are changed, even if it means Him beating you over the head with all kinds of trials to get you to change.

If you were a real believer, and God was doing this, because you were a real believer, you would know that true believers can not live in their old lives because God would see to it through suffering that you be changed. Instead we see so many Christians today justifying sin in the Christian with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation' argument. But if they were really saved and belonged to the Lord they'd know you can't be saved and live the life you people are defending here, one of living in sin and justifying it with a 'salvation is not by works, and you can't lose your salvation' argument.

Works do matter to salvation. They show you belong to the Lord and are saved. No works means you are a bastard son and do not belong to him and so he has no obligation to chastise you and push you into growing up. Not growing up and not changing shows He is not your heavenly Father.

?

What a horrible way to present Father to the world. Jesus said that seeing Him is to look on Father. In what instance did Jesus beat the disciples over the head? And did He join in with James and John to cast down fire balls from heaven when they were rejected?

How did He treat Judas?

We reap what we sow if rebellious. We walk doubleminded if truth is misunderstood.

But persecution and betrayal comes from being in the world of darkness. The Spirit that hates light.

The scriptures are enough to chastise. This is not punishment but a manual to build faith. To be read to show what we have being a new creation by looking at the head, our authority.

You continually twist the Word with a rod. It isn't works that show we are His but love for the brethren. Works show that the message given is from God.

Good deeds come from a compassionate heart towards suffering mankind.

Sometimes we suffer just because of decisions based on what we think God is saying through the lens of religious thought.

 

[Ralph-]

The Spirit life we are defending is the life of Christ, as we defend his work of faith it works in us to defends us .

Christ is the just and justifier of our new faith.

If he has begun that good work in us he will finisher it to the end .

He is our confidence ,we are to put no confidence in flesh that could never profit for salvation. Even the Son of man, Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for nothing.

How do you know you are even born again in the first place for this to be true for you? Are you saved just because you think so?

The Bible says we know we are saved and belong to Him by if we are being conformed into the image of Christ. You say that's not true?

Who is your confidence?

Christ.
And I know I possess the confidence that comes from the work of Christ by the change of life he is working in me.

Who will pay the eternal wage next time you deny Christ in unbelief?

I have never done that.
And besides, there is no wage that can pay the price for turning back to unbelief. God knows if and when you have done that and has made no provision to bring the sanctified person who has trampled on the blood of Christ back to faith.

As we are informed in Hebrew 6.. better things accompany salvation

That's right. And if you don't have that which accompanies salvation it shows you don't have salvation. If you did you'd have that which accompanies it.

 

[dcontroversal]

?

What a horrible way to present Father to the world. Jesus said that seeing Him is to look on Father. In what instance did Jesus beat the disciples over the head? And did He join in with James and John to cast down fire balls from heaven when they were rejected?

How did He treat Judas?

We reap what we sow if rebellious. We walk doubleminded if truth is misunderstood.

But persecution and betrayal comes from being in the world of darkness. The Spirit that hates light.

The scriptures are enough to chastise. This is not punishment but a manual to build faith. To be read to show what we have being a new creation by looking at the head, our authority.

You continually twist the Word with a rod. It isn't works that show we are His but love for the brethren. Works show that the message given is from God.

Good deeds come from a compassionate heart towards suffering mankind.

Sometimes we suffer just because of decisions based on what we think God is saying through the lens of religious thought.

I have dealt with LOST DRUGGIES and CRIMINALS that have more character and honesty than the 4 or 5 in this thread that regularly twist, embellish and falsely accuse me of things I have never said and or implied.......and ALL 4 or 5 push a works based salvation and yet by their very word and works prove that the Spirit of God does not lead them...shakes head in bewilderment.....

 

[garee]

Someday you'll have to start listening.

I have the right to think who is a Christian and who is not.

I don't get to judge who goes to hell and who does not. I can only think for myself who I'm going to trust as a brother/sister and who I am not. I have this Biblical right. Jesus said so. Paul said so. John said so. And I do that on the basis of whether or not they are living for Christ, not just talking up a good sermon.

I have no obligation to receive a person as a brother or sister who is a hypocrite.

it would be quite difficult to serve two masters . The letter of the law and the work of Christ faith as a three day labor of His love.it provide all the grace needed to hear God .

Why judge the grace of God? Only God can see into the heart of man.In doing so it would seem you do despite to His grace

Why not get under it and if you do see a brother sin rebuke them and do not share in their guilt. We walk by faith the unseen. Again only God can see into the heart and move men according to His own good pleasure.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Ralph-]

?

What a horrible way to present Father to the world. Jesus said that seeing Him is to look on Father. In what instance did Jesus beat the disciples over the head? And did He join in with James and John to cast down fire balls from heaven when they were rejected?

How did He treat Judas?

We reap what we sow if rebellious. We walk doubleminded if truth is misunderstood.

But persecution and betrayal comes from being in the world of darkness. The Spirit that hates light.

The scriptures are enough to chastise. This is not punishment but a manual to build faith. To be read to show what we have being a new creation by looking at the head, our authority.

You continually twist the Word with a rod. It isn't works that show we are His but love for the brethren. Works show that the message given is from God.

Good deeds come from a compassionate heart towards suffering mankind.

Sometimes we suffer just because of decisions based on what we think God is saying through the lens of religious thought.

Think what you want. Your limp wristed view of God's discipline for his children is all just part of the new grace theology circulating through the church these days. We are in the end times.

What you say here is proving my point exactly about what I said.