KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

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Nov 23, 2013
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Please, notice what I made bold - begets.


"The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.
He established me before time began, before he made the earth: even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me."

Proverbs 8:22
Trof those words are not even about Jesus, they're about wisdom personified as a woman. Even the NIV calls the chapter "Wisdom's Call" and calls wisdom a she.

Proverbs 8 New International Version (NIV)

Wisdom’s Call

8 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.

 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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AmazingWord - Messages often overlooked in the Bible (KJV, NIV, NASB...): God's Number 37 - theme tells of perfection/sanctification/being saved...

This article is from 2010 and is about the number 37 and the Bible. Whoever wrote this article is quoting a NASB (for sure in Psalm 37:37). The point is here is a person using a modern bible discussing number patterns of 37 who is not some KJVO. This is just an example of why the opinions of people can be easily dismissed because they are not grounded in truth.
Good, you managed to google one. Now, compare it to KJVO flooding every Christian forum, youtube etc.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Trof those words are not even about Jesus, they're about wisdom personified as a woman. Even the NIV calls the chapter "Wisdom's Call" and calls wisdom a she.

Proverbs 8 New International Version (NIV)

Wisdom’s Call

8 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
2 At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:
4 “To you, O people, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.

You do not believe its about Christ? I thought its generally accepted allegory.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You are also arguing that Son is Father (based on your version of Is 9:6), so I am confused how is that a no argument against Trinity...
The godhead is hard to understand... three beings all equal and all one God.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You do not believe its about Christ? I thought its generally accepted allegory.
Read the chapter, it's talking about wisdom, the allegory is wisdom personified as a woman.

Also what part of the chapter leads you to believe it's talking about Christ?
 
Nov 24, 2017
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Good, you managed to google one. Now, compare it to KJVO flooding every Christian forum, youtube etc.
Another example of an extraordinary and false claim posted without any basis in truth. The flood gates are open!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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None of it is, the entire chapter as the NIV clearly and accurately said is about wisdom.
Yes, its about Wisdom. As Romans is about Ezau.

But its allegory of something deeper. Cant you really see Christ in that? Maybe its because you are reading Elizabethian English translation of masoretic text :)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Yes, its about Wisdom. As Romans is about Ezau.

But its allegory of something deeper. Cant you really see Christ in that?
Yeah Christ fits the description of wisdom but the verses aren't talking about Christ or his attributes, they are talking about wisdom period lol.

If a verse or chapter talks about holiness or some other a tribute of Christ, does that mean the chapter is about Christ.... of course not.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Yeah Christ fits the description of wisdom but the verses aren't talking about Christ or his attributes, they are talking about wisdom period lol.

If a verse or chapter talks about holiness or some other a tribute of Christ, does that mean the chapter is about Christ.... of course not.
Christ said that Scriptures are about Him.

Yes, not every detail of Scriptures can be mapped to the person of Christ directly, but this specific chapter in Proverbs was recognized by the Church to be specifically about Christ.

I understand why you do not want to see that, it would contradict your view of Trinity (which is probably not the Trinity the rest of us believe in?).

I must go to sleep now, but what about other verses:

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
J 1:18 (I know, the KJV has "son", but the meaning should stay the same - Christ was in the bosom of Father before incarnation)


"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. "
Heb 1:3 (this is also not about his worldly service, right?)

Good night.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Christ said that Scriptures are about Him.

Yes, not every detail of Scriptures can be mapped to the person of Christ directly, but this specific chapter in Proverbs was recognized by the Church to be specifically about Christ.

I understand why you do not want to see that, it would contradict your view of Trinity (which is probably not the Trinity the rest of us believe in?).

I must go to sleep now, but what about other verses:

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
J 1:18 (I know, the KJV has "son", but the meaning should stay the same - Christ was in the bosom of Father before incarnation)


"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. "
Heb 1:3 (this is also not about his worldly service, right?)

Good night.
Good night.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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If anyone is interested, all translations call Jesus eternal or everlasting Father.

New International Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Living Translation
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

English Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New American Standard Bible
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

King James Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on his shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace.

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

International Standard Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

NET Bible
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

New Heart English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
A child will be born for us. A son will be given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. He will be named: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For a child is born unto us, A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

New American Standard 1977
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government is placed upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called The Wonderful One, The Counsellor, The God, The Mighty One, The Eternal Father, The Prince of Peace.

King James 2000 Bible
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

American King James Version
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

American Standard Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

Darby Bible Translation
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

English Revised Version
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Webster's Bible Translation
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

World English Bible
For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Young's Literal Translation
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Who translated the Hebrew OT into Greek in 300 B.C.? The 72 chose from the 12 tribes? That would make 66 of them apostate since only the tribe of Levi was chosen to copy the text. Why would the Jews translate their Hebrew text into Greek? Greeks were dogs to them.
This post and one previous is the reason why I have largely ceased to post on this forum.
The arrogance, ignorance, and bigotry displayed is breath-taking.

However, I have plenty of respect for Angela, and her sensible approach. Bill Mounce, I know, not personally, but through his numerous publications, and his careful and conservative approach is a joy.

And so, to defend these two from the malicious and unreasoning ignorance displayed in these two posts I will respond.

What we know now as the Old Testament was indeed translated about 300 BC into Greek.
And it was translated by Jews and for Jews.
Why?
Simply put, at that time, most Jews lived outside Palestine and were spread out all over what is now known as the Middle East and Southern Europe. Jews could be found as far west as the Iberian peninsula (present-day Spain and Portugal) and as far east as present-day India. For most of these Jews their home language was not Hebrew or Aramaic, but rather what language they spoke corresponded with where they lived. Did some continue to speak and understand Hebrew/Aramaic? Yes, but only a minority of Diaspora Jews were fluent in Hebrew/Aramaic.

Why was Greek chosen for the translation?
The Greek's, starting with Alexander conquered large parts of Europe,North Africa, and the Middle East as far east as India. Although their political control of various areas waxed and waned for centuries until it was subsumed by the Roman Empire, the systems of commerce and administration they set up persisted. Even in New Testament times the Roman Empire used Greek as its language of administration and commerce.
Nearly all the Jews of the Diaspora were traders and merchants, and so, of necessity, they all spoke Greek, in addition to any other languages that they might know.
In fact, across southern Europe and North Africa and the Middle East Greek was the language that was spoken on the streets. Whatever one's ethnicity and home language everyone spoke Greek...
So, the one language common to all Jews in 300 BC was, in fact, Greek, and NOT Hebrew/Aramaic!
And this was the reason why this translation was undertaken.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that Jews did not appreciate political domination by anyone, whether it be the Greeks or anyone else!

John146's aggressive and insulting dismissal of the Septuagint conveniently ignores a couple of very important facts: All of the OT quotes in the NT, whether from Jesus Christ Himself or from the Apostolic authors use the Septuagint. Why would they choose to do this if the Septuagint was, in fact, some kind of bastard upstart and fatally flawed translation?
Clearly they knew something John146 does not...

Now to change the focus somewhat:
I cannot for the life of me understand why the administrators and moderators of this forum allow post such as the ones I am responding to to go unchallenged.
It is absolutely clear to me that John146 and others like him are completely uninterested in evidence, proof, and truth.
In fact their approach can be summed up in one simple phrase: "Don't confuse me with facts!"
As in this case their only response is arrogance, hatred, and personal insult.
Does John146 actually know anything at all about Bill Mounce and his reputation?
Does he actually know anything, really, about Angela, whom he has so insultingly dismissed with no evidence, except for his own exceptional arrogance, ignorance and bigotry of course?

I have largely given up trying to contribute to this forum because between the KJVOnlyists, Sabbatarians, Flat Earthists etc there is no place for fact. What prevails is the biggest mouth and most aggressive attitude.
I challenge the administrators and moderators of this forum to do their jobs - moderate!
All i see is a free-for-all dominated by the ignorant and the aggressive...

Perhaps I will be banned for having the courage to address this issue - but what I have said needs to be said...
 
Nov 24, 2017
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[FONT=&quot]"For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God." ([/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Ecclesiastes 5:7)




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Nov 24, 2017
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I cannot for the life of me understand why the administrators and moderators of this forum allow post such as the ones I am responding to to go unchallenged.
In other words anyone who disagrees with me should be silenced!