The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.

[Ahwatukee]

Noooooo, no one is talking of 70 weeks of weeks and your explanation (the whole of it), starting from the decree is just far far from the truth.
Don't worry, i'm come to give you understanding, but it is a difficult one. i know you won't agree but it is what it is.

You're not going to give me any understanding, because you yourself don't understand. I was studying this before you were born and the Holy Spirit has given me no other interpretation of this. You mentioned "weeks" I clarified that they were "weeks of years." I gave you the book of Nehemiah to read which is a detailed account of the restoring and rebuilding of Jerusalem is fulfilled.

As proof to you and Lucy and anyone else who doesn't believe, you are first going to see the church removed and following that, the antichrist will make his covenant for one seven year period with Israel, which will be the fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree of seventy seven year periods given to them in Dan.9:24.

That last seven years is what is coming and will be to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. And during that same seven years, the prophecy of Dan.2:31-46 will also be fulfilled, when that Rock/Jesus falls on the feet of the statue and smashes it to pieces, blown away by the wind and never to be found again, which represents the end of all human government.

 

[Noose]

605 BC – Nebuchadnezzar begins to reign in Babylon
-19yrs

586 BC- Nebuchadnezzar takes captives from Judah (Daniel and the rest- Jer 52:12)
-70yrs of captivity and Daniel prays.

516 BC-.A heavenly decree is given to rebuild Jerusalem (Dan 9:23)
-49 yrs of rebuilding

467 BC – Attempt to change times and seasons (will explain)
-33 yrs

434 BC- Remainder of 62 weeks
-434 yrs (62 X7=434)

0 – There’s no 0 BC but this is the exact time the messiah is born, dividing the two time periods.
+33yrs The life of messiah here on Earth

33 AD- Messiah is killed
-33 yrs– Attempt to change times and seasons (will explain)

0 back to zero (The antichrist comes but is restrained until the gospel is spread to all the nations by the disciples and apostles- the two witnesses)

+3.5 yrs (half of the last 7 yrs where the apostles and disciples spread the gospel as a witness to the nations)

3.5 AD The antichrist takes reign of the world and first order is to kill the two witnesses.

+3.5yrs (figurative and must be calculated – his (antichrist’s) number is 666. So hemust rule for a total of:
3.5 x 666 x360/365.25=2297.49 yrs

3.5 AD +2297.49yrs= 2300.99yrs

Dan 8:14 He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

I'll tell you why there's an attempt to change times and why Jesus lived for 33 yrs only.

Since there was a change in calendar from 360 days/year to the current calendar 365.25 days/year, we loose 33.3 years every 2300 years. Not really loosing but it can't be accounted for in the calendar. The reason this verse exists:

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall count his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living; for the rebellion of my people he was smitten.

This explains the 'cut off' in Daniel 9. It doesn't mean killing only but a whole generation/life not being accounted for.

 

[Noose]

You're not going to give me any understanding, because you yourself don't understand. I was studying this before you were born and the Holy Spirit has given me no other interpretation of this. You mentioned "weeks" I clarified that they were "weeks of years." I gave you the book of Nehemiah to read which is a detailed account of the restoring and rebuilding of Jerusalem is fulfilled.

As proof to you and Lucy and anyone else who doesn't believe, you are first going to see the church removed and following that, the antichrist will make his covenant for one seven year period with Israel, which will be the fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree of seventy seven year periods given to them in Dan.9:24.

That last seven years is what is coming and will be to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. And during that same seven years, the prophecy of Dan.2:31-46 will also be fulfilled, when that Rock/Jesus falls on the feet of the statue and smashes it to pieces, blown away by the wind and never to be found again, which represents the end of all human government.

No you won't understand, keep waiting.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No you won't understand, keep waiting.

When you see those events take place, then think back on these posts and all that I told you, because that will be my proof to you.

 

[Noose]

When you see those events take place, then think back on these posts and all that I told you, because that will be my proof to you.

No they won't i can assure you, we are deep into the antichrist reign.

Dan 8:13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, "How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?" 14He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

2300 AD it is, don't hold your breath, i know what i speak of.

 

[tanakh]

Regardless of what Irvin/Darby/Scofield or MacDonald may have believed or taught, makes no difference to those of us who study end-time events and that because we get our information straight from scripture and not by the teaching of any of those men. People use them as an apologetic to discredit those who are looking forward to and anticipating the promise of the Lord, the Blessed Hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, of which Paul told us to comfort each other with that promise.

Very few people believed this theory prior to those you quoted,and they actually got it from a Jesuit Priest who was trying to clear the Pope from charges of being the Antichrist by pushing all references of the Antichrist into the then distant future.

In your case and those of others who believe all this the Jesuit succeeded in his aim. You keep telling people how you got all this from the Bible as if no one else has ever read it properly except yourself. You even twist Scripture to make it fit. A good example is the prophecy in Daniel. Lucy-Pevensie has posted no less than 25 translations of the text and yet you still insist on giving a the self same answer.

You mention ''Those of us who study end time events'' as if you belong to some special select group and no one else including myself ever have.. I admit that I have not got 40 futile wasted years to my credit believing a lie. I have the humility to realize that others more spiritual and with greater intellect than myself have studied and written about these matters down the centuries. You appear to count this as a weakness as their studies and findings differ from yours. I really feel sorry for you.

 

[tanakh]

Ahwatukee

Please refrain from accusing me of discrediting those who believe in the second coming and resurrection of the dead or the blessed hope as you state it. Because this is tantamount to calling me a none believer and an Antichrist, because I don't agree with your view of it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Regardless of what Irvin/Darby/Scofield or MacDonald may have believed or taught, makes no difference to those of us who study end-time events and that because we get our information straight from scripture and not by the teaching of any of those men. People use them as an apologetic to discredit those who are looking forward to and anticipating the promise of the Lord, the Blessed Hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, of which Paul told us to comfort each other with that promise.

That is correct. Why do people bother with the nonsensical propaganda about McDonald, Irvin, Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, etc. instead of simply studying the Scriptures for themselves? WHY DO CHRISTIANS PREFER DELUSION TO BIBLE TRUTH? Is that not evidence that Satan is managing to deceive Christians because they would rather focus on denigrating other Christians that studying the truth about the Rapture. Here's what we keep seeing over and over again:

1. The Rapture is a Bible doctrine, not a 19th century fantasy. "I don't believe in the Rapture because that word is not in the Bible". I want to actually see that word in the Bible, just like I want to actually see the word Trinity in the Bible".

2. Well then what about John 14:1-3 and 1 John 3:1-3? "I don't have a clue".

3. What about the fact that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints? "Well our respected gurus tell us that it will all happen on the same day at the same time".

4. What about the fact that all Christians must first stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and then participate in the Marriage of the Lamb before the second coming of Christ? "Oh, the second coming of Christ already took place in the first century, so we must now be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth (never mind all the evil surrounding us).

 

[Ahwatukee]

3. What about the fact that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints? "Well our respected gurus tell us that it will all happen on the same day at the same time".

That'd be a quick wedding of the Lamb wouldn't it?! Wooosh up to heaven!

Jesus: Everybody settle down now, I have to complete your judgment before we can return. You're all judged, there! The end! Here's your fine linen! Let's go!

Church: But, we just got here only a second ago!

Jesus: Sorry, we've gotta return to the earth now to end the age now. Hurry up and eat and drink!

Church: But we haven't even seen those dwelling places that you prepared for us yet!

Jesus: Sorry, we've got to go now! I'll show them to you later! Grab a horse and follow me!

Church: By the way Lord, I thought that we weren't supposed to go through your wrath!

 

[tanakh]

That is correct. Why do people bother with the nonsensical propaganda about McDonald, Irvin, Darby, Scofield, Ryrie, etc. instead of simply studying the Scriptures for themselves? WHY DO CHRISTIANS PREFER DELUSION TO BIBLE TRUTH? Is that not evidence that Satan is managing to deceive Christians because they would rather focus on denigrating other Christians that studying the truth about the Rapture. Here's what we keep seeing over and over again:

1. The Rapture is a Bible doctrine, not a 19th century fantasy. "I don't believe in the Rapture because that word is not in the Bible". I want to actually see that word in the Bible, just like I want to actually see the word Trinity in the Bible".

2. Well then what about John 14:1-3 and 1 John 3:1-3? "I don't have a clue".

3. What about the fact that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He comes WITH His saints? "Well our respected gurus tell us that it will all happen on the same day at the same time".

4. What about the fact that all Christians must first stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and then participate in the Marriage of the Lamb before the second coming of Christ? "Oh, the second coming of Christ already took place in the first century, so we must now be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth (never mind all the evil surrounding us).

You ask why Christians bother with ''nonsensical propaganda'' against these people Do you include Christians like Spurgeon
the Prince of Preachers and Samuel Tregelles who spoke out against Darby. Tregelles was an eminent Theologian and Greek Scholar He knew Darby and his book The Promise of Christs Second coming is still in print. No doubt you exclude the Left behind series as propaganda which is classed as fiction and rightly so.

In reply to your other comments

1 The problem with the word Rapture is that it has been hijacked by dispensationalists not its absence from the Bible. People ask ''Do you believe in the Rapture'' But they are not just asking about the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. They are really asking about the whole raft of false teaching that goes with it. To them its a litmus test to see whether you are a ''real'' Christian

2 John 14 1-3

Firstly Jesus was speaking to his Disciples 2000 years ago. They are all dead and in heaven with Jesus. Secondly he was using a description they understood. It was the custom for a Father to extend his house for his Son and Bride. If you read further you can see that the whole point is that we are going to be with Christ and the Father forever.

1 John 3 1-3

I believe in the blessed hope as do everyone who believes in the second coming its not the preserve of a select few

3 Is this a fact? Paul explained to the Church in Thessalonika that Christ would bring with him those who had fallen asleep (Died) because they were concerned that he may come back and those who died might miss him. So the dead arrive with him at his one and only second coming. In Acts Peter tells his Jewish audience that Christ must remain in Heaven until the consummation of all things. I dont know what you consider to be the consummation of all things but I would include everything up until his second coming which doesnt leave room for some pre tribulation visit and a return trip seven years later.

4 This happens at the second coming. As God created the heavens and earth in six days do you think it really would take Christ seven years to to complete the believers judgement and marriage supper?

I don't hold with the full preterist view that you attempted to describe in your post. But God did judge Israel in AD70 and brought an end to the OT age with the Temple and Cities destruction. This is a historic fact that was recorded by Josephus an eye witness to all the events and prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 23 and in other parts of the Gospels. He said it would happen during the lifetime of the generation he was speaking to and it did. Why else would he have told the chief Priest
that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of glory. Or the women of Jerusalem not to weep for him but for themselves? The answer is that Clouds were used as a Metaphor for Gods Judgement. Clouds are mentioned about judgement of Egypt and Edom in Isaiah. A physical coming didn't happen then but God uses natural disasters and nations to
carry out his judgements. God rules his world. Satan was defeated at the cross and can do nothing unless God allows him

 

[Ahwatukee]

You either have a very short memory, just block everything out, or purposely ignore what has been presented to you. Do you understand the concept of "we didn't come to our conclusions based on those people above?" We get our understanding of the gathering of the church, the "harpazo, snatching away" from scripture. John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 is very clear in its meaning. As I continue to make known to you, the church cannot and will not be present during the time of God's wrath and because Jesus already suffered it on every believers behalf, because scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer it and because of its severity, by the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the population will have been decimated. But you don't seem to be able to comprehend this. If the church were here during that time there would not be many living left to change and catch up. I gave examples of God using the sun to scorch the inhabitants with intense heat, among the other plagues of wrath, demonstrating that the church cannot be here because it will affect everyone on the earth, but you can't comprehend that either.

How sad it is that those who claim to be in Christ, instead of believing in His promise to take believers back to the Father's house and keep us out of the time of His wrath, they instead look for the antichrist and to remain on the earth in the midst of God's wrath, not understanding the severity of said wrath.

This happens at the second coming. As God created the heavens and earth in six days do you think it really would take Christ seven years to to complete the believers judgement and marriage supper?

While it is true that after the resurrection that there will be the Bema seat judgment for every individual in the church, the issuing of rewards, the wedding of the Lamb, as well as other heavenly business, but that is not the sole purpose of the seven year period. It will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. Plain and simple, seven years is the time that God has allotted.

 

[tanakh]

It really is a waste of time replying to you. Nehemiah6 posted specific questions and I replied to each one in turn What you block out or choose to ignore is that I believed all this false teaching years ago.

 

[p_rehbein]

It is hard to follow all this.......someone said they "wanted to SEE the word rapture/trinity" before they would believe it.......

Well, then I can only surmise that they DO NOT BELIEVE the 12 Apostles were water baptized........BECAUSE THAT AIN'T IN PRINT!



Folks "looking for a sign" or whatever.......will not get one.......Jesus said that if they did not believe the Prophets.....well.....you know.......

To deny the Rapture is to call the Apostle Paul a liar.

1 Corinthians 15:51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(and Jesus.......)

Matthew 24:40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left .41) Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42) Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is hard to follow all this.......someone said they "wanted to SEE the word rapture/trinity" before they would believe it.......

I have seen this specious argument over and over again by the naysayers. The problem with disbelieving in a literal Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that for centuries there has been so much false teaching about future events that thousands of Christians are now reluctant to simply open their Bibles and start from scratch (while disregarding the commentators from bygone eras).

 

[SpoonJuly]

I have seen this specious argument over and over again by the naysayers. The problem with disbelieving in a literal Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that for centuries there has been so much false teaching about future events that thousands of Christians are now reluctant to simply open their Bibles and start from scratch (while disregarding the commentators from bygone eras).

I opened my Bible, started from scratch, disregarded the commentators and discovered that the gathering of the saints takes place at the seventh (last) trump second coming of Jesus.
How did you miss it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I opened my Bible, started from scratch, disregarded the commentators and discovered that the gathering of the saints takes place at the seventh (last) trump second coming of Jesus.
How did you miss it?

Question bro.

If the rapture happens when jesus returns, and all who are not Gods when he returns are killed. Who is left on earth for Jesus to rule for 1000 Years? Who is left for him to punish of the families who do not go to jerusalem to worship him. Who is left to be ruled as he rules with a rod of Iron. And all the other things which scripture says will occure during the kingdom reign of Christ?

Not trying to argue, just trying to get you to may see why some others believe differently.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Question bro.

If the rapture happens when jesus returns, and all who are not Gods when he returns are killed. Who is left on earth for Jesus to rule for 1000 Years? Who is left for him to punish of the families who do not go to jerusalem to worship him. Who is left to be ruled as he rules with a rod of Iron. And all the other things which scripture says will occure during the kingdom reign of Christ?

Not trying to argue, just trying to get you to may see why some others believe differently.

I believe that the Jews (Israel) will enter the 1000 years in the flesh and re-populate the earth.
There may also be some non-believers that enter in the flesh. We are not told all will be killed, only those who worship the beast.

Who do you believe will be ruled ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe that the Jews (Israel) will enter the 1000 years in the flesh and re-populate the earth.
There may also be some non-believers that enter in the flesh. We are not told all will be killed, only those who worship the beast.

Who do you believe will be ruled ?

I believe jesus answered that when he said whoever endures to the end will be saved, it will be jews, and gentiles alike. The 144000 who go out to witness to the world, the two witnesses and the faith of the martyres will cause many to come to christ from all nations. And these people will enter the kingdom with Christ as their ruler.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I opened my Bible, started from scratch, disregarded the commentators and discovered that the gathering of the saints takes place at the seventh (last) trump second coming of Jesus.
How did you miss it?

Easy. The seven trumpet judgments announce GOD'S WRATH on the unbelieving and the ungodly. They have absolutely nothing to do with the Bride of Christ -- the Church.

How did you miss such an elementary truth, when the Bible clearly tells believers that we are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?

"The last trump" (also called the trump of God) is purely for the saints of God. Summoning them home. Even more significant is the voice of Christ calling His saints home with a shout.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

 

[SpoonJuly]

Easy. The seven trumpet judgments announce GOD'S WRATH on the unbelieving and the ungodly. They have absolutely nothing to do with the Bride of Christ -- the Church.

How did you miss such an elementary truth, when the Bible clearly tells believers that we are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ?

"The last trump" (also called the trump of God) is purely for the saints of God. Summoning them home. Even more significant is the voice of Christ calling His saints home with a shout.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

This shows just how weak we humans are. We both read and study the Scripture, we pray and seek guidance and understanding, and while we agree on some things we come to two very different conclusions as to when the gathering will be.
Not like some, I will not accuse you of being foolish, unlearned, or not lead by the Spirit, just that we are both fallible sinners saved by grace trying to understand. And we disagree brother.