How To Be Un-Saved

[Ralph-]

if man can be lost. Then he is saving himself

This is no more true than a man who first believes is saving himself.

As the psalmist said (139) where can I go that I may hide, where ever I go.

As far as salvation, the place where you can go where God will not follow you to is unbelief. Not sinning........unbelief.

You go out of the reach of Christ's forgiveness when you remove yourself from that forgiveness through a denial of Christ. Not when you sin, but when you cross over into unbelief. The promises are only for those who believe, not for those who no longer believe.

You have to continue to trust in God's forgiveness to be saved. And that's no more saving yourself than your believing was you saving yourself when you first believed. If believing is a work of self righteousness after salvation then it was when you first believed, and we know that's not true.

 

[Grandpa]

This is no more true than a man who first believes is saving himself.


As far as salvation, the place where you can go where God will not follow you to is unbelief. Not sinning........unbelief.

You go out of the reach of Christ's forgiveness when you remove yourself from that forgiveness through a denial of Christ. Not when you sin, but when you cross over into unbelief. The promises are only for those who believe, not for those who no longer believe.

You have to continue to trust in God's forgiveness to be saved. And that's no more saving yourself than your believing was you saving yourself when you first believed. If believing is a work of self righteousness after salvation then it was when you first believed, and we know that's not true.

Ephesians 2:8-9

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

​

So you are saying that Grace and Salvation are gifts but faith is what WE have to give God in order for Him to be able to give us His Gift.

And if we stop then He removes His Gift of Salvation from us.

But that's not what the bible says. That's what silly religions say.

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There it is. The gift of God. Which He says He does not take back.
​

Its ok that you don't understand. Those who have been indoctrinated into a works-religion mind set can't understand the Rest that is in Christ. They have been led away with the error of the wicked instead of growing in Grace and in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[slave]

you stated I called God a liar. Or I considered there was a possibility God was a liar’

those are not FACTS

The facts are I said whoever thinks salvation or all the things God has given us can be lost have made him a liar. Since I do not do either, or believe either to be true, I have not considered God to be a liar. Period.

Do not say you State facts, when what you stated have no basis of fact at all.

I stated a concern with someone who could pose that option of God even being a liar - you lay many prejudices within your reading of peoples facts stated. I do not agree with your premise in understanding Scripture. I cannot, for my spirit will not let me.

 

[Ralph-]

So you are saying that Grace and Salvation are gifts but faith is what WE have to give God in order for Him to be able to give us His Gift.

No.

Our BELIEVING is what we give to God in order for Him to be able to give us His Gift. He even gives us the gift of faith (the ability to know something is true) to then do the believing we must do in order to be justified and saved.

Don't confuse the gift of faith (the ability to know that what you can't see is true) with the believing and trusting you must do after you become convinced that the gospel you can't see is true.

And if we stop then He removes His Gift of Salvation from us.

If we stop believing and we refuse all of God's attempts to bring us back to faith he will turn us over to our unbelief and we will be forever lost and he will not change his mind about that even if you seek to come back with tears.

But that's not what the bible says. That's what silly religions say.

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There it is.
​

People who believe have faith. Faith is how they are able to believe and trust in God. That's the power that comes from the Holy Spirit that enables Christians to believe and trust in the gospel and be saved. No surprise here. People who believe have the gift of faith through which they believe. That's how they are able to believe and be saved.

The gift of God. Which He says He does not take back.

Show us where God says he does not take back gifts.

Don't use Romans 11:29. That does not teach what you think it does. Paul is saying that even though the Israelites have rejected the gifts of God, that does not mean the Israelites as a nation have lost the promise of the gifts. Paul says him being a believing Israelite is proof of that. His ancestors rejected the gifts and the calling, but since God promised them to Israel he did not revoke the promise from all future Israelites from that point onward. Paul uses himself to prove it. There's nothing in that passage that says once you are saved you can not lose your salvation.



​

Its ok that you don't understand. Those who have been indoctrinated into a works-religion mind set can't understand the Rest that is in Christ.

You don't realize it but you are actually the blind indoctrinated one. You can't even understand the argument you are resisting. Even when explained over and over to you people you literally have no capacity to understand anything outside of your own dogmatic assertions. That's the sure sign of being blinded in an indoctrination. As long as you keep seeing the argument as an argument for working to earn salvation you will be continuing to demonstrate the blindness of your indoctrination.

They have been led away with the error of the wicked instead of growing in Grace and in the Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You and others have been unable to show how having to continue to believe in order to be saved is you trying to earn your own salvation as if believing in God's forgiveness (through the power of God's gift of faith) is a work of self righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I stated a concern with someone who could pose that option of God even being a liar - you lay many prejudices within your reading of peoples facts stated. I do not agree with your premise in understanding Scripture. I cannot, for my spirit will not let me.

Well since I never stated it was possible or an option for God to lie, and do not believe it is possible. As such I recieve and accept everyone of his promises as fact. Thus your concern is unfounded, And in error

Again, The people who pose the option that God is a liar are those who claim Gods promises can be lost. Not me, for I do not believe Gods promises can be lost.

I have said it three times now. Are you still going to claim I consider it a possibility that God may be a liar?

Please let me know so I can take action.

 

[Budman]

Just because it is no longer the covenant between God and his people hardly means that was the only purpose of it. The NT is full of the teachings of the law to instruct God's people how to live.

Yet, as stated before, obedience to the Law has nothing to do with our salvation. It's hold is broken.

And even if I showed where he said it to you, you would not be able to see it.

Yeah, sure. Your ego-meter is off the charts.

No. I do not mix law and grace to be justified.
Grace is the ONLY way to be justified.
Justified people then uphold the law.
You do not know this.

You can't uphold the Law. You can't obey it fully. If you break even one law, you've broken all the rest. That's the whole point, so your whole argument is ridiculous.

The Bible itself explains what we no longer HAVE to literally keep in the law of Moses.
You think it says we don't have to keep ANY of it.

To retain salvation? Nope. Not a single one.

You are an ignorant Protestant.
Not entirely your fault though.

Your hidden catholicism is slipping through again.

Becoming a new creation who no longer lives in sin like he did before salvation is in fact a condition of salvation.

Then you're lost. You sin every day. You can deny calling it "living in sin" all you want, but since a single sin attributed to us will damn us, your whole argument once again is ridiculous.

You are an ignorant, indoctrinated Protestant. You are incapable of listening.

You are really starting to become unhinged, Ralph. You are spewing insults more frequently now.

You can forfeit your salvation because of loss of faith

If that were true after our initial salvation, then salvation itself would no longer be a gift. So - you're wrong yet again.

not because of a certain quantifiable amount of sinning.

Wow. You've just contradicted nearly everything you've posted on this thread.

Go back to the world and you are in danger of forfeiting the inheritance and not being able to convince God, even with tears, to change his mind and let you have it again.

Then, yet again, salvation wouldn't be a gift at all. It would be a wage earned.

I add the parts back in that the church made you not be able to see. And because you can not see you can not realize that's what I'm doing.

You do, huh? You sound like a modern day Joseph Smith. I fear for anyone who sits under your teachings. What an absolute mess they would be.

 

[slave]

Well since I never stated it was possible or an option for God to lie, and do not believe it is possible. As such I recieve and accept everyone of his promises as fact. Thus your concern is unfounded, And in error

Again, The people who pose the option that God is a liar are those who claim Gods promises can be lost. Not me, for I do not believe Gods promises can be lost.

I have said it three times now. Are you still going to claim I consider it a possibility that God may be a liar?

Please let me know so I can take action.

You implied it as an option. If it is not an option to you, why suggest it as a possible option?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You implied it as an option. If it is not an option to you, why suggest it as a possible option?

really?

I implied that IF what OTHER PEOPLE SAID WAS TRUE was TRUE< that wasd the ONLY OPTION.

I never implied it was an option,. Keep this nonsense up and I will have to ignore you. I do not take people who slander others even after they have been told numerous times they are wrong about what they think someone said.

I NEVER IMPLIED IT WAS AN OPTION.

 

[Grandpa]

No.

Our BELIEVING is what we give to God in order for Him to be able to give us His Gift. He even gives us the gift of faith (the ability to know something is true) to then do the believing we must do in order to be justified and saved.

Don't confuse the gift of faith (the ability to know that what you can't see is true) with the believing and trusting you must do after you become convinced that the gospel you can't see is true.




If we stop believing and we refuse all of God's attempts to bring us back to faith he will turn us over to our unbelief and we will be forever lost and he will not change his mind about that even if you seek to come back with tears.

People who believe have faith. Faith is how they are able to believe and trust in God. That's the power that comes from the Holy Spirit that enables Christians to believe and trust in the gospel and be saved. No surprise here. People who believe have the gift of faith through which they believe. That's how they are able to believe and be saved.




Show us where God says he does not take back gifts.

Don't use Romans 11:29. That does not teach what you think it does. Paul is saying that even though the Israelites have rejected the gifts of God, that does not mean the Israelites as a nation have lost the promise of the gifts. Paul says him being a believing Israelite is proof of that. His ancestors rejected the gifts and the calling, but since God promised them to Israel he did not revoke the promise from all future Israelites from that point onward. Paul uses himself to prove it. There's nothing in that passage that says once you are saved you can not lose your salvation.



​

You don't realize it but you are actually the blind indoctrinated one. You can't even understand the argument you are resisting. Even when explained over and over to you people you literally have no capacity to understand anything outside of your own dogmatic assertions. That's the sure sign of being blinded in an indoctrination. As long as you keep seeing the argument as an argument for working to earn salvation you will be continuing to demonstrate the blindness of your indoctrination.



You and others have been unable to show how having to continue to believe in order to be saved is you trying to earn your own salvation as if believing in God's forgiveness (through the power of God's gift of faith) is a work of self righteousness.

I've shown you and all the other works-salvationists, who don't even know that's what they are, that they are incorrect. I've done it with scripture. I've done it with common sense.

But there is no peaking under the vail. Only the Lord Jesus Christ can remove that for you.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

This is either true or it isn't. I know what Paul has said in Romans. I know what he says here. He doesn't limit the gifts and the calling of God to only ancient Israel. If he was doing that he would have put an exception here. He wouldn't have made this general statement.


Let's use something easier to understand. Let's say you have a belief in gravity. You have seen proof of this gravity. Lots of times. But then you decide not to believe in it anymore. You are mad at gravity because it made you fall down (or whatever reason). You tell people that it isn't gravity that causes things to fall but some other theory of attraction...

Can you ever REALLY stop believing in a fact that is know to you? How would it even be possible to stop believing in something that you KNOW to be true?

No. Its not possible. You can't un-know anything. Much less give back a gift of God.​

 

[Gabriel2020]

A man works out his own salvation by living by the the word of God and obeying the word of God. We don't live and obey by them all, but he said that we would be faithful in a few things.,but not all.

 

[mailmandan]

[FONT=&quot]Can you ever REALLY stop believing in a fact that is know to you? How would it even be possible to stop believing in something that you KNOW to be true?[/FONT]

No. Its not possible. You can't un-know anything. Much less give back a gift of God.​

Amen! I could never imagine to stop believing in something that I KNOW to be true. It’s too engrained in me and I’m too convinced.​

 

[Katy-follower]

Can you ever REALLY stop believing in a fact that is know to you? How would it even be possible to stop believing in something that you KNOW to be true?

No. Its not possible. You can't un-know anything. Much less give back a gift of God.​

It's like when God takes off your blindfold to show you the blue sky. How can you then unsee that and put the blindfold back on? Those who deny, they never saw it to begin with. With prodigal children, they drift off for a while (I was one of them), yet they don't stop believing. I remember being approached by more than one believer during that time who knew I was spiritual family, because they could see by my nature... they could see that "Holy Spirit glow" in me that was still there.

As in Hebrews, salvation is an elementary principle (milk). Being born again happens one time, not multiple times. Jesus' one sacrifice was sufficient, He doesn't need to be crucified multiple times for us (reminds me of the old covenant sacrifices that could not take away sin completely, hence why they had to be repeated). If one cannot grasp this basic truth of eternal salvation then how can they grow? I believe this will hold them back.

And how can one witness to the lost, because what hope is there in a non eternal salvation? Don't the lost already have no hope...

(Ok, this was meant to be a short paragraph, but I couldn't stop typing, lol )

 

[Grandpa]

It's like when God takes off your blindfold to show you the blue sky. How can you then unsee that and put the blindfold back on? Those who deny, they never saw it to begin with. With prodigal children, they drift off for a while (I was one of them), yet they don't stop believing. I remember being approached by more than one believer during that time who knew I was spiritual family, because they could see by my nature... they could see that "Holy Spirit glow" in me that was still there.

As in Hebrews, salvation is an elementary principle (milk). Being born again happens one time, not multiple times. Jesus' one sacrifice was sufficient, He doesn't need to be crucified multiple times for us (reminds me of the old covenant sacrifices that could not take away sin completely, hence why they had to be repeated). If one cannot grasp this basic truth of eternal salvation then how can they grow? I believe this will hold them back.

And how can one witness to the lost, because what hope is there in a non eternal salvation? Don't the lost already have no hope...

(Ok, this was meant to be a short paragraph, but I couldn't stop typing, lol )

I didn't even think of the absurdity of trying to explain the "good news" of being able to lose your salvation to someone.

I suppose you should rather try to convince them to NOT get saved too early in life if they can later on lose that salvation. It would be better to wait until you were already closer to leaving.


The REAL Good News is much better than this. The Real Good News says that once a person is a sheep of the Lord NO ONE can remove them from His Hand. That means once you have faith in Christ He is Really serious about that.


In the humanistic view anything is possible. We are responsible for getting saved. We are responsible for staying saved. We have to persevere. We have to produce fruit. We have to do all the extra credit required to be extra holy and extra saved.

But that view is changed when we are Saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. The vail comes off and when we study the bible and pray we know by our own experience that it is by the Lord that we are blessed. We don't have the power to save ourselves. We don't have the power to keep ourselves saved. We find out that we must rely on Christ for all of our spiritual blessings.

 

[Ralph-]

We find out that we must rely on Christ for all of our spiritual blessings.

And if that's not happening in your life then you show yourself to be in unbelief, and you will not be saved when Jesus comes back.

Doesn't matter if you never believed to begin with, or you stopped believing later. If you don't have God in you changing you, you show that you are in unbelief and you will not enter the kingdom of God when he returns.

You people have made this so complicated. Once saved always saved is a meaningless argument. It does not change the fact that you have to be a new creation changing into the image of Christ to enter into the kingdom. If you aren't, you show yourself to be in unbelief, and you will not be saved when Jesus comes back. You won't be saved then because you are not saved now, your life showing that you do not believe.

 

[Ralph-]

[h=2]How To Be Un-Saved[/h]
Answer: Assuming you really are saved to begin with, go back to purposely and deliberately worshiping the sex and money idols of the world in a rejection and denial of the blood that sanctified you. In other words, go back to the careless, contemptuous unbelief you had before Christ called you to himself and saved you.

And make sure you refuse every attempt of God's to discipline you and bring you back to the forgiveness and protection found in Christ. In time your heart will become hardened and God will turn you over to your hardened, unbelieving heart and you will forfeit the salvation you once had. Done. And for good. Coming back is not allowed. God does not allow Christ to be trampled on and held up to open shame. He will not change his mind. You're done.

 

[davida]

Maybe you should read your Bible, Ralph, that's not what Jesus said.

Start with the book of John.

 

[RickyZ]

Maybe you should read your Bible, Ralph, that's not what Jesus said.

Start with the book of John.

Unlike some, Ralph IS reading his Bible. ALL of it. Unlike many.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And if that's not happening in your life then you show yourself to be in unbelief, and you will not be saved when Jesus comes back.

Doesn't matter if you never believed to begin with, or you stopped believing later. If you don't have God in you changing you, you show that you are in unbelief and you will not enter the kingdom of God when he returns.

You people have made this so complicated. Once saved always saved is a meaningless argument. It does not change the fact that you have to be a new creation changing into the image of Christ to enter into the kingdom. If you aren't, you show yourself to be in unbelief, and you will not be saved when Jesus comes back. You won't be saved then because you are not saved now, your life showing that you do not believe.

What matters is if we have faith and assurance that gd will do what he promised,

if we do not, then we may believe, but our belief has no root, and will most likely fail, because the root is not Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unlike some, Ralph IS reading his Bible. ALL of it. Unlike many.

The Pharisee could quote the OT verbaitim, we see how much thet benefited them

reading the binle is great, but if we do not interpret it right, it is not bery fruitful

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How To Be Un-Saved


Answer: Assuming you really are saved to begin with, go back to purposely and deliberately worshiping the sex and money idols of the world in a rejection and denial of the blood that sanctified you. In other words, go back to the careless, contemptuous unbelief you had before Christ called you to himself and saved you.

And make sure you refuse every attempt of God's to discipline you and bring you back to the forgiveness and protection found in Christ. In time your heart will become hardened and God will turn you over to your hardened, unbelieving heart and you will forfeit the salvation you once had. Done. And for good. Coming back is not allowed. God does not allow Christ to be trampled on and held up to open shame. He will not change his mind. You're done.

What part of a person who sins has never seen or knwn god, ne who would s born of god can not sin do hou fail to,comprehend?

if a person goes back to the wold (vomit) does he not probe he was a dog, and still is a dog, and like a dog, he alwqys returns to his vomit?

a child of god is no longer a dog he would not eat his vomit, thats what dogs,do!