Once Saved, Always Saved ... OR Can you Lose your Salvation?
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R
'Never let you go' means never, and 'eternal' means eternal for those who believe, not for those who stop believing.
Stop believing and you will no longer possess the life that is eternal.
Eternal life was eternal before you possessed it. It didn't become eternal and never ending when you got it. And it will continue to be eternal and never ending even after you don't have it anymore because of unbelief. Just not for you anymore.
Which is why he then immediately tells the people that he himself says are saved to not also cease to abide in Christ like they did.
Yeah, makes lots of sense......not.
You and the church misunderstand vs. 19 to mean something that negates vs. 24. Instead of choosing the more compelling evidence of vs. 24 that shows you CAN leave like the others did the church throws that out and insists on using vs. 19 as a proof text that everybody without exception who leaves Christ was never in him to begin with, and they leave vs. 24 twisting in the wind as if it didn't even exist.
You don't even understand the argument.
The argument is you can NOT use these particular people who left John's ministry to broad stroke all people who depart as automatically and without exception not saved either. Especially since John warns those who really do believe and did not leave to not to do what they did and leave too. Understand?
Stop believing and you will no longer possess the life that is eternal.
Eternal life was eternal before you possessed it. It didn't become eternal and never ending when you got it. And it will continue to be eternal and never ending even after you don't have it anymore because of unbelief. Just not for you anymore.
Which is why he then immediately tells the people that he himself says are saved to not also cease to abide in Christ like they did.
Yeah, makes lots of sense......not.
You and the church misunderstand vs. 19 to mean something that negates vs. 24. Instead of choosing the more compelling evidence of vs. 24 that shows you CAN leave like the others did the church throws that out and insists on using vs. 19 as a proof text that everybody without exception who leaves Christ was never in him to begin with, and they leave vs. 24 twisting in the wind as if it didn't even exist.
You don't even understand the argument.
The argument is you can NOT use these particular people who left John's ministry to broad stroke all people who depart as automatically and without exception not saved either. Especially since John warns those who really do believe and did not leave to not to do what they did and leave too. Understand?
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The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent belief," as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in Acts 16:31. It depends on the context.
In James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.
Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Christ), as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In James 2:19, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.
Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Christ), as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
It's actually not nonsensical that a man would come to this.
He thinks his trust/faith was a gift that God gave him when his eyes were opened and he wonders how he ever lived without God before. Then he reads the parable about the talents and thinks: oh, this gift of trust is the talent he gave me in this parable...so when the man reads to not worry about money/provision and sees that he does do this, he enters a struggle and does not want to not trust in the matter. So he doesn't see it as: God may stop granting me this gift. He sees it more as: if I don't treasure this gift of trust and believe Him in even such a simple matter as money that will one day be done away with, that is burying the talent (the small seed of trust He gave me) instead of using that seed of trust and so it growing.
He thinks his trust/faith was a gift that God gave him when his eyes were opened and he wonders how he ever lived without God before. Then he reads the parable about the talents and thinks: oh, this gift of trust is the talent he gave me in this parable...so when the man reads to not worry about money/provision and sees that he does do this, he enters a struggle and does not want to not trust in the matter. So he doesn't see it as: God may stop granting me this gift. He sees it more as: if I don't treasure this gift of trust and believe Him in even such a simple matter as money that will one day be done away with, that is burying the talent (the small seed of trust He gave me) instead of using that seed of trust and so it growing.
EG,,,
Look at it like this. The laws of gravity are eternal, they were eternal before you believed in them and they will exist if you stop believing in them. Believing in the laws of gravity will keep you safe from purposely walking off a cliff. But not believing will at some point end in your detriment.
It is your belief in the laws of gravity that keep you safe. You do not need to understand the science behind gravity, just the consequences of ignoring them. I realise this is not a prefect analogy but give it a thought.
Look at it like this. The laws of gravity are eternal, they were eternal before you believed in them and they will exist if you stop believing in them. Believing in the laws of gravity will keep you safe from purposely walking off a cliff. But not believing will at some point end in your detriment.
It is your belief in the laws of gravity that keep you safe. You do not need to understand the science behind gravity, just the consequences of ignoring them. I realise this is not a prefect analogy but give it a thought.
E
It says the moment you believe YOU HAVE It
if you can lose it, it is CONDITIONAL not ETERNAL
Maybe you need to refocus on english and find out what words actually mean, In this case, english and greek mean the same, and can not be confused.
[FONT="]Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.[/FONT]
You should actually read what it says, John did not assume anything, He made the statment that there may still be peoplel there who are not yet saved, and they could be in danger like those who left.
Nice try, but you missed the major point.
John never said anyone who leaves is not p[art of the church, He said anyone who leaves who is now ANTICHRIST was never part of the church.
You know. People who CLAIMED they believed at one time, but LOST that belief, and now deny Christ?
I left church as a prodigal son for 5 years, i did not leave because I was never saved, and I came back, because of Gids chastening.
I never DENIED jesus as the christ.
once again, Just so you can not say you have been shown
THE PEOPLE JOHN SPOKE OF WERE THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME BELIEVED AND HAVE NOW LOST THEIR BELIEF.
oc course if history repeats. You will try to twist that to.
No, You do not understand the argument, I never stated or is our conversation EVER been about everyone who leaves.
it is ABOUT THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME BELIEVED< AND NOW DO NOT BELIEVE (they rehject christ)
I know many who stopped going to church, but still believe jesus is the christ. John is not talkin about them.
Will you finally open you eyes and see? Or continue to fight?
if you can lose it, it is CONDITIONAL not ETERNAL
Maybe you need to refocus on english and find out what words actually mean, In this case, english and greek mean the same, and can not be confused.
[FONT="]Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.[/FONT]
You should actually read what it says, John did not assume anything, He made the statment that there may still be peoplel there who are not yet saved, and they could be in danger like those who left.
Nice try, but you missed the major point.
John never said anyone who leaves is not p[art of the church, He said anyone who leaves who is now ANTICHRIST was never part of the church.
You know. People who CLAIMED they believed at one time, but LOST that belief, and now deny Christ?
I left church as a prodigal son for 5 years, i did not leave because I was never saved, and I came back, because of Gids chastening.
I never DENIED jesus as the christ.
once again, Just so you can not say you have been shown
THE PEOPLE JOHN SPOKE OF WERE THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME BELIEVED AND HAVE NOW LOST THEIR BELIEF.
oc course if history repeats. You will try to twist that to.
No, You do not understand the argument, I never stated or is our conversation EVER been about everyone who leaves.
it is ABOUT THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME BELIEVED< AND NOW DO NOT BELIEVE (they rehject christ)
I know many who stopped going to church, but still believe jesus is the christ. John is not talkin about them.
Will you finally open you eyes and see? Or continue to fight?
So what I want to say is...I read quite recently the 5 points because I had heard them mentioned for years. And I agreed with them. None of the points had anything to do with remaining in a discussion, clasping your hands over you ears, or being angry, so I don't think you can judge if I am a Calvinist by those criteria. 
Matthew 17:5 is a great example of what some Greek grammarians refer to as the Culminative Aorist. I am well pleased (εὐδόκησα/from eudokeō) is an action with continuing results. As such the Culminative Aorist is very close to the Perfect. Any aorist that is not in the indicative mood is timeless. However, in the above example εὐδόκησα is an aorist/active/indicative.
In Greek pisteuo is accented on the upsilon when it signifies mental assent and on the omicron when it signifies trust plus credence.
In English belief does not ordinarily include trust and only signifies credence. Greek is a much more precise language.
The belief required for Salvation indeed includes trust.
Unfortunately, many trust in works and not in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments, Doing the will of the Father etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).
*Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance exclusively in Christ for salvation.
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, Works of mercy and charity, Obeying his commandments, Doing the will of the Father etc..
His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works.
The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).
*Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance exclusively in Christ for salvation.
Where did you get that information about the accent on "pisteuo"? Never heard of such a thing - and as far as I know such an idea is not even close to being true. The accent on a verb is recessive and is on the third to last syllable unless the last syllable is long, then the accent moves to the second from last syllable. So on a verb like pisteuo, the accent will move around depending on the ending of the verb stem. So, yes the accent on a verb will move around to different letters, but it never has anything to do with the meaning of the word.
There are some words in Greek where the placement of an accent means a difference in meaning, but not in verbs like pisteuo.
The other problem with what you say is that in "pisteuo" - that last letter "o" in the English transliteration of the Greek work is actually an omega in Greek and not an omicron!
So in James 2:19 where the devils "believe" the accent is on the upsilon, so your explanation might seem to fit. The problem is that it won't hold for other uses of the word. I would do some more study on it but don't have time now.
I am not necessarily saying your idea is incorrect, but just questioning the source? Or is it your own idea?
Do you know anything about Greek accents, or is it something you read somewhere? Or those of you out there that know about the accent in Greek, what do you say?
There are some words in Greek where the placement of an accent means a difference in meaning, but not in verbs like pisteuo.
The other problem with what you say is that in "pisteuo" - that last letter "o" in the English transliteration of the Greek work is actually an omega in Greek and not an omicron!
So in James 2:19 where the devils "believe" the accent is on the upsilon, so your explanation might seem to fit. The problem is that it won't hold for other uses of the word. I would do some more study on it but don't have time now.
I am not necessarily saying your idea is incorrect, but just questioning the source? Or is it your own idea?
Do you know anything about Greek accents, or is it something you read somewhere? Or those of you out there that know about the accent in Greek, what do you say?
R
Not in the Protestant church. Among unbelievers outside of the church, and among Catholics, yes, that is a problem for many. But not in the present day Protestant believers. The exact opposite is true among us Protestants. And from my point of view there is no reason whatsoever to include Catholics when we talk about the church. The same way we do not include unbelievers in a discussion about the church.