The Rapture

[Locutus]

And yet sin, evils, and crimes are rampant throughout the world.

Fantasies have their place, but not when trying to understand Bible truth.

If everything happened in 70 AD then this earth should be TOTALLY AND ABSOLUTELY righteous.

No fantasies promoted by me - your lack of understanding of the nature of the "new heavens and earth" is fawlty and in error:

Isaiah states there will be both sin and death in the "new heavens and earth":

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


(Isa 65:20 KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

But you carry on with contradiction the bible and promoting your errorsy.

 

[Endoscopy]

No fantasies promoted by me - your lack of understanding of the nature of the "new heavens and earth" is fawlty and in error:

Isaiah states there will be both sin and death in the "new heavens and earth":

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


(Isa 65:20 KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

But you carry on with contradiction the bible and promoting your errorsy.

Your eschatology is completely flawed. You have to take into consideration ALL of the eschatologyical scripture. This you fail to understand!!
When did the rapture happen!
When did the tribulation take place?
When did Jesus return?

This is just a few issues!!

 

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

No fantasies promoted by me - your lack of understanding of the nature of the "new heavens and earth" is fawlty and in error:

Isaiah states there will be both sin and death in the "new heavens and earth":

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


(Isa 65:20 KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

But you carry on with contradiction the bible and promoting your errorsy.

So you reckon we are living in the new heavens & earth now?

 

[PlainWord]

No we don't PL - we are in the new age, Paul stated that the ends of the age had come upon them:

1 Cor 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Wasn't implying you dear friend. Agreed, we are in the new age now. Will our age end eventually? All previous ages have ended.

 

[PlainWord]

Your eschatology is completely flawed. You have to take into consideration ALL of the eschatologyical scripture. This you fail to understand!!
When did the rapture happen!
When did the tribulation take place?
When did Jesus return?

This is just a few issues!!

Can I answer these questions? Great, thanks.

1) When did the "rapture" happen?

It happened in 70 AD and it occurred in the spiritual realm but evidence was witnessed in our realm. Those alive and remaining were caught up and joined the resurrected saints for the wedding as the Bride of Christ. "Harpazo" in 1 Thes 4 is also used by Paul in 2 Cor 12:2 when he was caught up to the third heaven. Note Paul did not remain in the third heaven (which is the spiritual realm), he returned to the physical realm. The resurrection was recorded in history by two Roman historians, Cassius Dio and Suetonius. Phantoms were seen rising from the earth at the sound of a trumpet. This fulfills 1 Cor 15:52. Thus the resurrected saints preceded those who were alive and remaining just as Paul predicted.

2) When did the tribulation take place?

The "great tribulation" as discussed by Jesus took place from Feb to Sep 70 AD. Titus trapped 1.2 million Jews inside the city to starve, die by sword and disease. Keep in mind that Jerusalem's population had swollen to 5 times in normal size as Jews from all over the world returned for Passover as was their custom. Thus all rotten eggs returned to the basket, "Great Harlot - Jerusalem."

By the time Titus broke through, nearly 2/3 of all Jews were already dead inside the city with bodies by the tens of thousands lying rotting in the summer heat in the streets and in houses and were being eaten by scavenger birds as predicted in Rev 19:17. Prior to this they were in the beginnings of sorrows, the signs leading up to the great tribulation. These signs were given by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

3) When did Jesus return?

The Parousia (presence) of Christ returned several times, first in 66 AD for about a half an hour and His presence lit up the temple which lit up the entire night sky. This coincides with the half hour of silence of Rev 8:1. His Parousia was also with the heavenly armies seen riding around all the cities of Israel prior to the War. His presence returned again as Titus was preparing his final assault as a deep darkness filled the Land in accordance with Rev 8:12.

It is critical to understand how the fully glorified Christ would appear to mortals on earth. It would be as a very bright light as discussed in Rev 18:1. Christ came to execute wrath on the unbelieving Jews, especially those who pierced Him and their children. All priests were killed at the end of the War. Preceding the light would be very dark darkness called the Glory Cloud.

 

[PlainWord]

End,

Anytime someone quotes single verses I always check context with biblegateway.com. You didn't even quote the full verse. Here it is in context. You in order to promote your view ignore scripture beyond what you quoted. The rest of the verse has the rapture happening at that time. If that happened in 70AD there would have been a lot of literature about all of the people disappearing! Several instances are stated about two people doing a job and one disappears. ​

Yes, the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. Nobody disappeared because none of the living stayed in heaven (the spiritual realm). There isn't a lot of literature from this era period. All the authors of the NT, except John, were dead and those resurrected to heaven, so they wouldn't be writing anything. It was a gathering in the spirit and John writes extensively about this in Rev 21-22. I did not provide the entire passage to spare words but I would be happy to go over Dan 12 with you line-by-line and explain how it was fulfilled in the first century.

Here goes:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.​

I will cite Josephus who records most of these events. ​

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."​

It was at this time that the majority of the Christians (12K from each Tribe) left the city by fleeing to the mountains. Once there they went north along the mountain range then settled in Pella.

​

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.​

This was the siege of Jerusalem and the reason Jesus tells people to stay away and not enter in Luke 21 or to flee Judea if they were already in country.

But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.​

Again, they were taken to Pella and not one Christian died during the great tribulation of Jerusalem.

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.​

​

As

Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.”​

[SUP]8[/SUP]​

In recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground the sound of a trumpet was heard. The fact that an audible trumpet sound was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised explicitly fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable . . .”
​

​

You can read about this for yourself here:

Cassius Dio Roman History 63.16 and Suetonius Lives of the Twelve Caesars​

6.19​

4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”​

John reveals everything right before the start of the Great Tribulation in Revelation. Josephus records that the wise knew but the wicked did not:

​

​

This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it.​

[SUB][/SUB]​

​

You see, it all fits. I can explain the Olivet to you also.

 

[PlainWord]

End,

Let's continue.

“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.​

These Biblical and historical fact therefore implies that the great distress mentioned in v. 21 that had been cut short in v. 22 refers to a previous arrival and assault on Jerusalem prior to its ultimate fall in A.D. 70 like Florus’ assault in the Upper Marketplace of Jerusalem in A.D. 66 since the saints were still present in the city at that time. Thus I believe the arrival of Florus’ army outside of Jerusalem in Iyyar of A.D. 66 served as a sign for Christians in Jerusalem to flee the city at that time. And Florus’ assault was cut short at this time for the sake of the elect so that the saints would not meet the same fate as their persecutors. I believe this distress was cut short at this time and then allowed to resume shortly thereafter once the saints left the city beginning at that time.​

“Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

In Matthew 24:29, the sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky. These astral omens are very similar to the heavenly signs said to accompany the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age.

​

The fact that in v. 29 the sun darkens, the moon turns to blood and the stars fall from the sky are all signs of the destruction of heaven and earth predicted in 2 Peter 3.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.​

Though it is impossible to know for sure what the sign of the Son of Man in the sky of v. 30 was, another likely candidate was reported around the same time in which the aforementioned star appeared: “Now it happened after this that there was seen from above over the Holy of Holies for the whole night the outline of a man’s face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was quite awesome.” Was this the glorified face of Christ? And if so, was this the sign of the Son of Man seen in the sky predicted in v. 30? Pseudo-Hegesippus also appears to mention this sign: “Also after many days
a certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed[.]

Sepher Yosippon (A Mediaeval History of Ancient Israel) translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 “Burning of the Temple.”

Pseudo-Hegesippus, Chapter 44. (Translated from the Latin by Wade Blocker. This excerpt taken from the Latin edited by Vincente Ussani):​

​

[SUB][/SUB]​

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This was the gathering I already explained.
​

 

[preston39]

P and L....,

Please explain what era/date you were presented with this conclusion?

Who taught you this interpretation?

Once taught this interpretation what scripture did you use to verify/validate this conclusion?

 

[PlainWord]

So you reckon we are living in the new heavens & earth now?

I'm sure LOC would agree. We are absolutely living during the era of "new heavens and earth" now. We are in the Messianic Age, or the "Age of Grace" or the "Millennium," how ever you want to call it. You don't think God will actually destroy literal Heaven do you or erase the cosmos and create a new universe? The "new heaven and new earth" do not represent the eternal state where only dead saints live. I hope you don't think that?

First understand the concept of the old "heaven and earth." The passing away of old "heaven and the earth” (Rev. 21:1). This symbology represents the termination of the Mosaic Age. We see this in one of Isaiah’s Messianic prophecies. God would judge Israel so the Gentiles would come to trust in Him (Isa. 51:5). At that time, “the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment.” The Gentile mission would occur in conjunction with the vanishing of the first heavens and earth.

God formed the Mosaic-Age "heaven and earth" during Israel’s Exodus from Egypt. This cannot refer to the original creation of the cosmos. This “heaven and earth” is the arrangement in which God relates to his people through the law covenant. It perished when God judged Israel in 70 AD.

Jesus made an interesting comment that reinforces this definition of “the old heaven and earth.” He said, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” (Matt. 5:18). If Jesus is speaking of the physical cosmos, then not one element of the Mosaic law has perished. This including the sacrifices, priesthood, Temple, et al. Are any of these Mosaic rituals still in effect today? If not, than the old "heaven and earth" passed away because the Law passed away.

Jesus completely changed the priesthood and re-established our connection to God which was lost in the Garden. The way God deals with man was forever altered made possible by the Blood of Christ. All things have been restored and we are living it now!!

 

[PlainWord]

Heaven and earth passed away continued:

What is the New Jerusalem? In short, it is the new heavens and earth.

Saints live in the “new heaven and earth.” They inhabit the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2). The Scriptures show they do so during the Messianic Age.

Paul, for example, makes this clear. He says the old Jerusalem represents the Mosaic-Age covenant. The new Jerusalem represents the Messianic-Age covenant. He speaks of a “Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Gal. 4:25–26). The Apostle recognized the ongoing Temple ministry. As he wrote these words, the Mosaic-Age sacrifices continued in earthly Jerusalem. But the covenant under which they operated could never lead to true freedom, only to bondage. For the moment, the free Jerusalem was “above,” waiting for the end of the Mosaic Age. The sons of the old bondage-covenant were persecuting the sons of the new freedom-covenant (Gal. 4:29). Soon things would change. The bondage-covenant would end and its sons be cast out (Gal. 4:30).

Paul leaves the new Jerusalem above in strict conformity to Jesus’s imagery. The new Jerusalem would not descend until God removed “the heaven and earth” of the old Jerusalem.

John completes the picture. In his vision, the old passes away and he sees “the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven” (Rev. 21:2). God’s free people will now dwell in it.

This new Jerusalem is the church and kingdom Jesus established (Mat. 16:18–19). We know this because when the new Jerusalem descends, she is “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” (Rev. 21:2). John makes her identity clear. He says in (v 9-10):

"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."

The Bride, the Lamb's wife, the great city, and the holy Jerusalem descending from heaven are one and the same. We must not miss this identification. The new Jerusalem is the church. During the “last days” of the Mosaic Age, she was espoused to Christ. She would soon be presented to him “as a chaste virgin” (2 Cor. 11:2). Paul told the Ephesian husbands in Eph 5:25-27, 30, 32:

"...that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish...For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones...This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

This should no longer be a mystery to us. The Church is the Bride of Christ and again, John completes the picture. He hears an angel call the New Jerusalem, "the Bride, the Lamb's wife." The holy city today is the Church. The Bride and her Groom consummated their marriage in John's near future at the "rapture" in 70 AD and we've been married to Christ ever since. The church exists as home for the saints in the Messianic Age, our age, the Millennial Age. There is no temple. We are the Temple and God and Christ dwell within us. This never happened before in the Mosaic Age. Thus, the new heaven and earth is the new Jerusalem, the Messianic Age and we are in it now.

Another thing to consider which ties all of the above to the events of 70 AD is the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" in Rev 19. Here birds are eating dead and decaying corpses of the unbelieving, faithless and perverse Jews of 70 AD. This is imagery as we don't eat the flesh of people, but with literal meaning. All of wicked Israel was destroyed except for a tiny remnant which went into captivity (again). At this point old Israel ceased to be God's people. Let me repeat because it's important. After 70 AD, God has no relationship with any Jew who did not and does not or will not accept His Son. They are dead to Him just as any unbelieving Gentile is. New Israel is now made up of God's new people, believing Jews and Gentiles alike.

I realize these are difficult, and likely very new, topics that you may not have heard explained like this before but it is true and I hope this helps?

 

[PlainWord]

P and L....,

Please explain what era/date you were presented with this conclusion?

Who taught you this interpretation?

Once taught this interpretation what scripture did you use to verify/validate this conclusion?

Preston,

Thanks for the question. I was raised by a Baptist preacher, about your age. Thus I was taught in the pre-trib rapture. However as I grew up and matured I realized the many inconsistencies of this view. For 3-4 years I studied the other various prophetic models and tried to hold each view but in the end, all had their problems. Thus I kept searching for the truth because there can only be one correct prophetic model.

I guess it was about 2 years ago that I read most of Josephus, the part leading up to and including the War. It was like reading the Olivet Discourse and Revelation but in great detail. I knew I was on to something. I then began studying Preterism. More and more pieces came together. I credit Mike Rogers as the person who had (and continues to have) the most influence on me but also credit my local pastor, and my wife's former pastor. I also credit my wife as we often discuss these things.

I also read most of the writings of the early church fathers. If you look at Polycarp who was an actual disciple of John, you find him not once looking for the "second coming" of Christ. Heck, this was all the disciples could talk about but a generation later, there was no more talk of it. Instead Polycarp was looking forward to martyrdom so that he could immediately be with the Lord.

I re-read the NT several times over with the mindset of a first century return of Christ and studied the key concepts and everything fit the Preterist model. Over and over Jesus stated He would return to THAT generation and that some of those standing there would see Him. Paul likewise gave comfort to the persecuted church that they would soon have rest from their abuse. Now it made sense. In 70 AD, the wicked Jews persecuting them would be all dead.

Paul gave Titus the "blessed hope" of seeing the Lord's return. Similarly, Paul instructed the Thessalonians to "watch and be sober." Everything screamed immanency. Nothing hinted at a multi-thousand year delay. A delay of that duration would render everything totally irrelevant to the audiences of Paul's letters and to those listening to Christ.

Thanks for the question and I would be happy to answer more.

 

[Endoscopy]

Can I answer these questions? Great, thanks.

1) When did the "rapture" happen?

It happened in 70 AD and it occurred in the spiritual realm but evidence was witnessed in our realm. Those alive and remaining were caught up and joined the resurrected saints for the wedding as the Bride of Christ. "Harpazo" in 1 Thes 4 is also used by Paul in 2 Cor 12:2 when he was caught up to the third heaven. Note Paul did not remain in the third heaven (which is the spiritual realm), he returned to the physical realm. The resurrection was recorded in history by two Roman historians, Cassius Dio and Suetonius. Phantoms were seen rising from the earth at the sound of a trumpet. This fulfills 1 Cor 15:52. Thus the resurrected saints preceded those who were alive and remaining just as Paul predicted.

2) When did the tribulation take place?

The "great tribulation" as discussed by Jesus took place from Feb to Sep 70 AD. Titus trapped 1.2 million Jews inside the city to starve, die by sword and disease. Keep in mind that Jerusalem's population had swollen to 5 times in normal size as Jews from all over the world returned for Passover as was their custom. Thus all rotten eggs returned to the basket, "Great Harlot - Jerusalem."

By the time Titus broke through, nearly 2/3 of all Jews were already dead inside the city with bodies by the tens of thousands lying rotting in the summer heat in the streets and in houses and were being eaten by scavenger birds as predicted in Rev 19:17. Prior to this they were in the beginnings of sorrows, the signs leading up to the great tribulation. These signs were given by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

3) When did Jesus return?

The Parousia (presence) of Christ returned several times, first in 66 AD for about a half an hour and His presence lit up the temple which lit up the entire night sky. This coincides with the half hour of silence of Rev 8:1. His Parousia was also with the heavenly armies seen riding around all the cities of Israel prior to the War. His presence returned again as Titus was preparing his final assault as a deep darkness filled the Land in accordance with Rev 8:12.

It is critical to understand how the fully glorified Christ would appear to mortals on earth. It would be as a very bright light as discussed in Rev 18:1. Christ came to execute wrath on the unbelieving Jews, especially those who pierced Him and their children. All priests were killed at the end of the War. Preceding the light would be very dark darkness called the Glory Cloud.

It is obvious that you ignore scripture that disagrees with your view. You change a future literal happening turning it into the invisible realm in 70AD. Thus you ignore how the return of Christ will be seen by the whole world with great fear. You put a filter on non symbolic prophecy to make the prophecy fit your beliefs. That is not the method of reading the Bible. You are supposed to look at all sections of scripture that deals with the issue. Doing this it becomes obvious that eschatologyical events are not in 70AD but future. When did the battle of Armageddon take place. I was in Israel on top of the mountain overlooking the plain of Megido where the battle is to take place. There is a sign where you can see the plain that states this is where the battle is to take place. Quit trying to force prophecy into your paradigm. There is a reason why there are 4 views of eschatology. Most are written in symbolic language but there are those written plainly. Jesus returning to earth with all to see and fear causing the rapture to happen with the angels doing it is not symbolic language. Spirit realm only is completely flawed. The Bible says differently.

 

[PlainWord]

End,

You have so much to learn my dear brother. I'm doing my best to help you but in the end, you are going to have to put the work and time in yourself.

It is obvious that you ignore scripture that disagrees with your view. You change a future literal happening turning it into the invisible realm in 70AD. Thus you ignore how the return of Christ will be seen by the whole world with great fear.

I never said Christ's first century parousia return was invisible. Indeed He was seen by all. "The whole world" is not the correct translation. Look at Young's Literal Translation (YLT):

Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

The "tribes of the land" were the Tribes of Israel. They all saw Christ light up the night sky in 66 AD, including those who pierced Him EXACTLY as the passage reads!! Josephus records this event in War 5-6-3:

on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.

In Rev 8:1 John records that heaven was silent for this same half hour just prior to all heck breaking loose on Jerusalem. Later in Rev 18:1 after the fall of Babylon the Harlot (Jerusalem in 70 AD), John records that an angel having great authority returns. I believe this is Christ's presence returning and again lighting up the sky:

And after these things I saw another messenger coming down out of the heaven, having great authority, and the earth was lightened from his glory.

You put a filter on non symbolic prophecy to make the prophecy fit your beliefs. That is not the method of reading the Bible. You are supposed to look at all sections of scripture that deals with the issue.

I look at all scripture and I am happy to explain any that you misunderstand. Go ahead, test me.

Doing this it becomes obvious that eschatologyical events are not in 70AD but future. When did the battle of Armageddon take place. I was in Israel on top of the mountain overlooking the plain of Megido where the battle is to take place.

I have been there too, twice, most recently in 2015. This valley is not where the battle called "Armageddon" takes place. This is the location of where the foreign troops gathered. Read the passage closely. Here it is in YLT.

for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; Lo, I do come as a thief; happy [is] he who is watching, and keeping his garments, that he may not walk naked, and the may see his unseemliness, and they did bring them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon.

They GATHERED at Megiddo, the precise location where Titus forces were met with forces from Syria and from across the Euphrates River in Iraq led by foreign commanders. The war began up north, in Galilee. All surrounding Jewish villages were taken before Jerusalem was laid siege. Many Jews from these towns went to Jerusalem thinking they would be safe behind her massive walls. You have to study history too my friend, not just the Bible as the Bible does not contain dates.

Jesus returning to earth with all to see and fear causing the rapture to happen with the angels doing it is not symbolic language. Spirit realm only is completely flawed.

We have angelic armies seen riding among the clouds in those days as recorded by Josephus:

a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Is this anything you have heard of since 70 AD? Show me another secular writing which discusses an angelic army seen in the sky. I dare you. I double dare you. Everything fits the 70 AD time frame once you understand the language and realize that "world" is more literally translated "land" and you realize that the "known world" in that day where these words were written was limited to the Roman Empire. The disciples being sent out into all the world means they were to go throughout the Roman Empire, not the entire planet. Heck they didn't even finish going to every town in Israel before Christ returned. Paul claims they accomplished their mission before he died:

Read Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Past tense - WAS PREACHED. We know none of them left the Roman Empire. Nobody went to China or the Americas. Nobody went to Russia.

What does Christ say in Mat 16?

Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

Are you also calling Christ a liar? Or, perhaps was He just being deceptive? Did none of them see Him come in His Kingdom? My view of His presence return in 70 AD fits, yours does not.

 

[Endoscopy]

End,

You have so much to learn my dear brother. I'm doing my best to help you but in the end, you are going to have to put the work and time in yourself.



I never said Christ's first century parousia return was invisible. Indeed He was seen by all. "The whole world" is not the correct translation. Look at Young's Literal Translation (YLT):

Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!

The "tribes of the land" were the Tribes of Israel. They all saw Christ light up the night sky in 66 AD, including those who pierced Him EXACTLY as the passage reads!! Josephus records this event in War 5-6-3:

on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.

In Rev 8:1 John records that heaven was silent for this same half hour just prior to all heck breaking loose on Jerusalem. Later in Rev 18:1 after the fall of Babylon the Harlot (Jerusalem in 70 AD), John records that an angel having great authority returns. I believe this is Christ's presence returning and again lighting up the sky:

And after these things I saw another messenger coming down out of the heaven, having great authority, and the earth was lightened from his glory.



I look at all scripture and I am happy to explain any that you misunderstand. Go ahead, test me.



I have been there too, twice, most recently in 2015. This valley is not where the battle called "Armageddon" takes place. This is the location of where the foreign troops gathered. Read the passage closely. Here it is in YLT.

for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; Lo, I do come as a thief; happy [is] he who is watching, and keeping his garments, that he may not walk naked, and the may see his unseemliness, and they did bring them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon.

They GATHERED at Megiddo, the precise location where Titus forces were met with forces from Syria and from across the Euphrates River in Iraq led by foreign commanders. The war began up north, in Galilee. All surrounding Jewish villages were taken before Jerusalem was laid siege. Many Jews from these towns went to Jerusalem thinking they would be safe behind her massive walls. You have to study history too my friend, not just the Bible as the Bible does not contain dates.



We have angelic armies seen riding among the clouds in those days as recorded by Josephus:

a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Is this anything you have heard of since 70 AD? Show me another secular writing which discusses an angelic army seen in the sky. I dare you. I double dare you. Everything fits the 70 AD time frame once you understand the language and realize that "world" is more literally translated "land" and you realize that the "known world" in that day where these words were written was limited to the Roman Empire. The disciples being sent out into all the world means they were to go throughout the Roman Empire, not the entire planet. Heck they didn't even finish going to every town in Israel before Christ returned. Paul claims they accomplished their mission before he died:

Read Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Past tense - WAS PREACHED. We know none of them left the Roman Empire. Nobody went to China or the Americas. Nobody went to Russia.

What does Christ say in Mat 16?

Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

Are you also calling Christ a liar? Or, perhaps was He just being deceptive? Did none of them see Him come in His Kingdom? My view of His presence return in 70 AD fits, yours does not.

The problem with your paradigm is that according to Isaiah when Christ returns he will rule from a new Jerusalem that descends on the current Jerusalem and Christ will sit on the throne in Jerusalem on Mt. Zion. Visable to all to see. Not some invisible throne. He will then rule for a thousand years and let Satan loose for a time before closing him in hell forever. Your claiming 70AD fails this prophecy. I have been to Jerusalem several times for work. He is not there.

Quit cherry picking verses and look at all eschatologycal scripture.

 

[PlainWord]

The problem with your paradigm is that according to Isaiah when Christ returns he will rule from a new Jerusalem that descends on the current Jerusalem and Christ will sit on the throne in Jerusalem on Mt. Zion. Visable to all to see. Not some invisible throne. He will then rule for a thousand years and let Satan loose for a time before closing him in hell forever. Your claiming 70AD fails this prophecy. I have been to Jerusalem several times for work. He is not there.

Quit cherry picking verses and look at all eschatologycal scripture.

Please cite the specific passages you are referencing. Again, I've been to Jerusalem a ton too so clearly that doesn't mean anything because your views and mine are quite different. Let's look at the last chapter of Isaiah, how does it start?

Thus says the Lord:“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the Lord.



Do you see Him reigning on a throne on earth? I don't!!!

 

[Endoscopy]

Please cite the specific passages you are referencing. Again, I've been to Jerusalem a ton too so clearly that doesn't mean anything because your views and mine are quite different. Let's look at the last chapter of Isaiah, how does it start?

Thus says the Lord:“Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
Where is the house that you will build Me?
And where is the place of My rest?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For all those things My hand has made,
And all those things exist,”
Says the Lord.



Do you see Him reigning on a throne on earth? I don't!!!

Isaiah 24 AMPC

21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

 

[PlainWord]

Isaiah 24 AMPC

21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

OMG, you think this is in our future? LOL. Context my friend. When did Isaiah live? About 740-681 BC. Close enough. The Assyrians conquered Isaiah when Isaiah was a young man. Babylon's invasion happened around 597 BC shortly after Isaiah's death. Isaiah 24:3-6 tells us the land was to be desolate and the people scattered. This happened under King Neb. It was the first time Israel was left desolate. The second time happened in 70 AD.

The passage makes clear that they transgressed the Law and broke the covenant (v 5) and v 6 says that they received the "curse." If you don't know what curse is being discussed, read Deu 28 starting in v 15. Now ask yourself and be honest, would Isaiah skip ahead of the pending desolation judgment less than 100 years away and jump ahead past the 70 AD desolation then skip several thousand years more past our time and warn the people of the 7th century BC about the consequences of their sins nearly 3,000 years later? Or, does the prophet have something relevant to say to his people and the way they were behaving?

These "cosmetic disturbances" sun and moon under distress v 23 is common prophetic language used to describe other divine punishment of nations such as Judah (Jer 4:23-26), Egypt (Ez 32:7-9), Babylon (Isa 13), and Edom (Isa 34:4-5) all of which happened in the 6th century BC thus we have the same imagery in use in Isa 24 to discuss the pending fall of Judah to King Neb in the same 6th century BC.

The end of Isa 24 discusses the time after the punishment when God again "dwells" with His people. The same language is used one chapter later and can be found in Zec 14 to discuss the period after the Maccabees Revolt. You really need to study and learn prophetic language and what the symbols mean along with Jewish history. There is nothing left in the OT to be fulfilled in our future.

 

[Endoscopy]

OMG, you think this is in our future? LOL. Context my friend. When did Isaiah live? About 740-681 BC. Close enough. The Assyrians conquered Isaiah when Isaiah was a young man. Babylon's invasion happened around 597 BC shortly after Isaiah's death. Isaiah 24:3-6 tells us the land was to be desolate and the people scattered. This happened under King Neb. It was the first time Israel was left desolate. The second time happened in 70 AD.

The passage makes clear that they transgressed the Law and broke the covenant (v 5) and v 6 says that they received the "curse." If you don't know what curse is being discussed, read Deu 28 starting in v 15. Now ask yourself and be honest, would Isaiah skip ahead of the pending desolation judgment less than 100 years away and jump ahead past the 70 AD desolation then skip several thousand years more past our time and warn the people of the 7th century BC about the consequences of their sins nearly 3,000 years later? Or, does the prophet have something relevant to say to his people and the way they were behaving?

These "cosmetic disturbances" sun and moon under distress v 23 is common prophetic language used to describe other divine punishment of nations such as Judah (Jer 4:23-26), Egypt (Ez 32:7-9), Babylon (Isa 13), and Edom (Isa 34:4-5) all of which happened in the 6th century BC thus we have the same imagery in use in Isa 24 to discuss the pending fall of Judah to King Neb in the same 6th century BC.

The end of Isa 24 discusses the time after the punishment when God again "dwells" with His people. The same language is used one chapter later and can be found in Zec 14 to discuss the period after the Maccabees Revolt. You really need to study and learn prophetic language and what the symbols mean along with Jewish history. There is nothing left in the OT to be fulfilled in our future.

Always projecting your paradigm on the scripture. Prophets wrote many things thousands of years in the future and also about nearer future. The nearer ones validated them as prophets. If anyone made prophecies in the near future that failed to happen they were killed and everything they uttered was eradicated. Those writings of prophets that survive were validated as true prophecies of validated prophets.

 

[Endoscopy]

Look at Daniel and Revelation. They have yet to happen. Oops its been thousands of years!!

 

[PlainWord]

Always projecting your paradigm on the scripture. Prophets wrote many things thousands of years in the future and also about nearer future. The nearer ones validated them as prophets. If anyone made prophecies in the near future that failed to happen they were killed and everything they uttered was eradicated. Those writings of prophets that survive were validated as true prophecies of validated prophets.

My friend, Isaiah later discusses the second fall and desolation of Jerusalem in Chapter 65. The post war period is found at the end of 65 and into 66. 65 begins with the discussion of Israel being split in two; His servants vs. those who forsake Him. In v 17 the new heavens and earth are introduced which is the period after the War. So yes, the prophet starts out discussing what was soon to come upon his people and ends with the end of his nation in 70 AD. So, yes he covers about an 800 period of time. However, Isaiah is silent about anything in our future. He touches on the millennial kingdom which we are in now.

Daniel, who came later in captivity covers the period up to 70 AD and goes no further. However, in Dan 2 a little is shown about the world after the fall of Israel and later Rome. Honestly, you are so set in your beliefs that I don't think I can help you. But at least you were introduced to the truth.