Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
Then you're teaching salvation by works. Obeying the Law precedes salvation by the Death of Jesus. One is earning his salvation. Typical NR quid pro quo salvation arrangement. (n)
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Not at all. I am saying God instructed them to observe and obey the Law because Jesus, in the "future," would redeem them.
How you are unable to see this baffles me, but the fact you're so Reformed also explains why.
 
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7thMoon

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Rufus said:
Your paragraph above is incoherent. Are you saying we are justified by our faith and law-keeping? If so, this still contradicts Pauline theology.
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If you don't keep the law, you don't have faith, and you don't trust. The works of the Law are the deeds of law enforcement, not the individual's dedication to obeying the law. Are you saying charitable works damn people? Perhaps, they burden or curse people.

We justified by works of faith, not deeds of the law. To say that the law can justify a person is an essence of fascism.
 
R

Rufus

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FollowerofShiloh said:
Not at all. I am saying God instructed them to observe and obey the Law because Jesus, in the "future," would redeem them.
How you are unable to see this baffles me, but the fact you're so Reformed also explains why.
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The salvation of OT saints has NOTHING to do with the Law. It has to do with their FAITH! Here's another clue: Hebrews 11 is NOT the Hallmark of faithful Lawkeepers. :rolleyes:
 
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Rufus

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7thMoon said:
If you don't keep the law, you don't have faith, and you don't trust. The works of the Law are the deeds of law enforcement, not the individual's dedication to obeying the law. Are you saying charitable works damn people? Perhaps, they burden or curse people.

We justified by works of faith, not by deeds of the law. To say that the law can justify a person is an essence of fascism.
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We are not justified by any works. Read the link I embedded in my 4779; for obviously you don't understand what James is teaching. In a nutshell James is not teaching that believers are justified in God's eyes by "works of faith". Rather, he is teaching that believers are justified [on the horizontal level] in the eyes of men by their "works of faith". Believers' works of faith are their testimony to the world that that they are true believers, since the world, unlike God, cannot read the hearts of men.
 
selahsays

selahsays

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… Hey folks, before anything, there was our Father’s Grace. —Selah
 
M

MerSee

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Rufus said:
We are not justified by any works. Read the link I embedded in my 4779; for obviously you don't understand what James is teaching. In a nutshell James is not teaching that believers are justified in God's eyes by "works of faith". Rather, he is teaching that believers are justified [on the horizontal level] in the eyes of men by their "works of faith". Believers' works of faith are their testimony to the world that that they are true believers, since the world, unlike God, cannot read the hearts of men.
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Psalm 61:11
11 Trust not in iniquity, and cover not robberies: if riches abound, set not your heart upon them. 12 God hath spoken once, these two things have I heard, that power belongeth to God, 13 And mercy to thee, O Lord; for thou wilt render to every man according to his works.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
The salvation of OT saints has NOTHING to do with the Law. It has to do with their FAITH! Here's another clue: Hebrews 11 is NOT the Hallmark of faithful Lawkeepers. :rolleyes:
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The Law was God's tool to keep those who followed it. They still had what Abraham taught so they looked forward in time to when the Messiah would come.
 
selahsays

selahsays

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MerSee said:
Psalm 61:11
11 Trust not in iniquity, and cover not robberies: if riches abound, set not your heart upon them. 12 God hath spoken once, these two things have I heard, that power belongeth to God, 13 And mercy to thee, O Lord; for thou wilt render to every man according to his works.
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Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.

- Colossians 3:16-17,23-24

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

- Revelation 19:7-8
 
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Rufus

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FollowerofShiloh said:
The Law was God's tool to keep those who followed it. They still had what Abraham taught so they looked forward in time to when the Messiah would come.
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No, it wasn't. That was not one of the purposes of the Law. The Law had zero power to save (or keep) anyone! You obviously don't know why God gave the Israelites the Law.
 
M

MerSee

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Rufus said:
No, it wasn't. That was not one of the purposes of the Law. The Law had zero power to save (or keep) anyone! You obviously don't know why God gave the Israelites the Law.
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The New Testament Law is still binding on Christians.
 
FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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Rufus said:
No, it wasn't. That was not one of the purposes of the Law. The Law had zero power to save (or keep) anyone! You obviously don't know why God gave the Israelites the Law.
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I was taught the Law from a young boy until a man. And have been giving you the reasons we were given growing up. Don't act like you know something you know nothing about.
 
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7thMoon

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Rufus said:
We are not justified by any works. Read the link I embedded in my 4779; for obviously you don't understand what James is teaching. In a nutshell James is not teaching that believers are justified in God's eyes by "works of faith". Rather, he is teaching that believers are justified [on the horizontal level] in the eyes of men by their "works of faith". Believers' works of faith are their testimony to the world that that they are true believers, since the world, unlike God, cannot read the hearts of men.
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Sure about that? Works of faith are obedience to the law, not the works of the law.
[James 2:21, 24-25 ESV] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? ... 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
 
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Rufus

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FollowerofShiloh said:
I was taught the Law from a young boy until a man. And have been giving you the reasons we were given growing up. Don't act like you know something you know nothing about.
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And you were taught wrong! I know what the PURPOSES of the Mosaic Law Covenant were. And I can support each of them with scripture. I'll let you go first, sir. Give it your best shot and make certain you can support your position with scriptures, otherwise don't waste my time.
 
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7thMoon

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Rufus said:
What is "New Testament Law"? You have chapter and verse on that?
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Where is "love one another, as I have love you" binding? There is advice which for modern man is bad in the New Testament.
 
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Rufus

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7thMoon said:
Sure about that? Works of faith are obedience to the law, not the works of the law.
[James 2:21, 24-25 ESV] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? ... 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
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A false dichotomy! What you're overlooking is that Rahab, while not under the written Mosaic code, nevertheless had the works of the law written intuitively revealed to her, being written upon her heart as all Gentiles do.

Rom 2:14-15
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
NASB

Plus Rahab was not justified in God's eyes since by faith alone God justifies his people. But she was certainly justified in the eyes of Israelites she saved!
 
R

Rufus

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7thMoon said:
Where is "love one another, as I have love you" binding? There is advice which for modern man is bad in the New Testament.
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Oh...okay. So you were alluding to Messianic Law, i.e. Law of Christ? All LAW hinges on the Two Greatest Commandments.
 
R

Rufus

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7thMoon said:
Sure about that? Works of faith are obedience to the law, not the works of the law.
[James 2:21, 24-25 ESV] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? ... 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
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Evidently, you didn't read the link embedded into my 4779? You're taking James out of context.

You also forget what Paul taught about Abraham:

Rom 4:9-10
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
NIV

James stresses what Abraham did AFTER he was justified, while Paul emphasizes Abraham was justified BEFORE he was circumcised. Now go and reconcile the two passages!
 
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