The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'
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No. It SHOULD be out in the open if it is disruptive or false teaching.
We talk so much about Bible topics on this forum, but we never talk about how to apply what it says to ourselves. I'm going to post an article about dealing with false teachers so that we can better protect ourselves from what they teach:
Pastor John, here’s a question from Caden in Boca Raton, Florida. “Hello, Pastor John! After seeing the documentary American Gospel, I was conflicted because I’m not sure if I am supposed to call out false teachers. Second Peter 2:1–3 makes it obvious that there will be false teachers, but the text also does not say we should point them out. I have heard both sides to this argument, but I’m still not sure. I want to be careful to not ‘pronounce judgment before the time’ (1 Corinthians 4:5). Does this passage apply here in this situation? Are we taking a judgment that isn’t ours? Or should we rest in God’s ultimate knowledge? And if a prominent false teacher is to be called out, who does this — where and how?”
Maybe it would be helpful to step back first and get the bigger picture of the New Testament response to those who live and teach in ways that lead others into error and ruin, and then zero in on 1 Corinthians 4:5 for some guidelines for how we should speak and write about such people.
Beware the Wolves
So let’s begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They’re clothing themselves with lamb’s wool while they’re wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28–29 when he said, “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.”
Avoid, Rebuke, Call Out
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can’t avoid somebody if you don’t know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in 1 Corinthians 5:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14; 2 Timothy 3:5; 2 John 10. In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people — and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19–20, Paul went beyond just “avoid them” to “rebuke them publicly.” So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin” — and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction — “rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear..”
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us — especially shepherds, pastors — should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
Expose Evil
Now, in 1 Corinthians 4:5, Paul is talking about how the Corinthians should assess Paul and Cephas and Apollos, because the people are choosing sides and boasting in their favorite teacher. He says,
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We talk so much about Bible topics on this forum, but we never talk about how to apply what it says to ourselves. I'm going to post an article about dealing with false teachers so that we can better protect ourselves from what they teach:
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Pastor John, here’s a question from Caden in Boca Raton, Florida. “Hello, Pastor John! After seeing the documentary American Gospel, I was conflicted because I’m not sure if I am supposed to call out false teachers. Second Peter 2:1–3 makes it obvious that there will be false teachers, but the text also does not say we should point them out. I have heard both sides to this argument, but I’m still not sure. I want to be careful to not ‘pronounce judgment before the time’ (1 Corinthians 4:5). Does this passage apply here in this situation? Are we taking a judgment that isn’t ours? Or should we rest in God’s ultimate knowledge? And if a prominent false teacher is to be called out, who does this — where and how?”
Maybe it would be helpful to step back first and get the bigger picture of the New Testament response to those who live and teach in ways that lead others into error and ruin, and then zero in on 1 Corinthians 4:5 for some guidelines for how we should speak and write about such people.
Beware the Wolves
So let’s begin with Jesus. Matthew 7:15: “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” And the word beware means all of us should be alert, but especially shepherds, to identify not just false teaching, but false teachers, whose ways are subtle. They’re clothing themselves with lamb’s wool while they’re wolves.
And Paul used the same Greek word for beware in Acts 20:28–29 when he said, “Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. . . . I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.”
“In order to protect the flock, we should expose false teachers and minimize the spread of the gangrene.”
Jesus used the same word again in Matthew 16:6, but he got more specific: “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Paul had the same kind of group in mind and the same kind of error in mind in Philippians 3:2 and 3:18: “Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.” And then verse 18: “For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.” Then in Romans 16:17, he warned, “Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.”Avoid, Rebuke, Call Out
To avoid them, you have to know who they are. You can’t avoid somebody if you don’t know who they are. This idea of identifying and avoiding shows up in 1 Corinthians 5:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14; 2 Timothy 3:5; 2 John 10. In other words, Christians, and shepherds in particular, should be discerning and alert to behavior and teaching that dishonors Christ and destroys people — and not treat it in a casual or harmless way.
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19–20, Paul went beyond just “avoid them” to “rebuke them publicly.” So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin” — and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction — “rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear..”
And then Paul went on and actually named destructive false teachers:
- “Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me” (2 Timothy 4:10).
- “You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes” (2 Timothy 1:15).
- “By rejecting this [faith and a good conscience], some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander” (1 Timothy 1:19–20).
- “Their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus” (2 Timothy 2:17).
So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us — especially shepherds, pastors — should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
Expose Evil
Now, in 1 Corinthians 4:5, Paul is talking about how the Corinthians should assess Paul and Cephas and Apollos, because the people are choosing sides and boasting in their favorite teacher. He says,
I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one [Paul, Cephas, Apollos] will receive his commendation from God. (1 Corinthians 4:4–5)
“The best protection against the darkness of error is the light of truth.”
[Article to be continued in next post....]
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thank you for answering my question. 
just after the birth of my firstborn (43 years ago lol), we met a new neighbor. she's LDS, and though she and her husband moved out west, we've kept in touch over the years. she's very sweet, and i'm quite fond of her.
we even spent 4 hours on the phone one night, with her trying to convince me to convert. remember when long distance wasn't free?
i asked because the notion people pre-existed their life on planet earth is an LDS doctrine, in case you were wondering.
just after the birth of my firstborn (43 years ago lol), we met a new neighbor. she's LDS, and though she and her husband moved out west, we've kept in touch over the years. she's very sweet, and i'm quite fond of her.
we even spent 4 hours on the phone one night, with her trying to convince me to convert. remember when long distance wasn't free?
i asked because the notion people pre-existed their life on planet earth is an LDS doctrine, in case you were wondering.
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[....Article continued from previous post.]
But for now, our job is indeed to do mouth judgment, writing judgment, behavior judgment — not a heart judgment, but mouth and writing and behavior judgment. When a mouth speaks unbiblical, destructive teaching, when a blog or an article or a book publishes unbiblical and destructive teaching, when a body — a human body, a physical body — behaves with unbiblical and destructive behavior, in all these cases, we are to be discerning. And according to Ephesians 5:11, we are to expose the error. “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” “Censure them; show them to be wrong” is what the word elegchō means.
Five Factors for Calling Out False Teachers
So the question is how and when — not if. And here I think the Bible calls for wisdom, rather than telling us who and when and how. The question we ask is this: How can we best — in our situation, with our gifts and our responsibilities — help the most people believe and live the most truth, and how can we protect the most people from destructive beliefs and behaviors?
And here are five factors perhaps to consider when deciding whether to name a false teacher publicly.
- The seriousness and deceitfulness of the error.
- The size of the audience. Is it growing?
- The duration of their ministry. Did they make one blunder or are they constantly doing it?
- The vulnerability of the people for whom you are responsible.
- The role you have in influencing shepherds who really need to be discerning for who the false teachers are.
The last thing I would say is to let your teaching be so powerful in clarifying the greatness and the beauty and the worth of God’s truth that your people will smell error before it infects their lives. The shape of error is always changing. You can’t preach enough negative sermons to stay ahead of it. And you don’t have to. The best protection against the darkness of error is the light of truth.
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thank you for answering my question.
just after the birth of my firstborn (43 years ago lol), we met a new neighbor. she's LDS, and though she and her husband moved out west, we've kept in touch over the years. she's very sweet, and i'm quite fond of her.
we even spent 4 hours on the phone one night, with her trying to convince me to convert. remember when long distance wasn't free?
i asked because the notion people pre-existed their life on planet earth is an LDS doctrine, in case you were wondering.
just after the birth of my firstborn (43 years ago lol), we met a new neighbor. she's LDS, and though she and her husband moved out west, we've kept in touch over the years. she's very sweet, and i'm quite fond of her.
we even spent 4 hours on the phone one night, with her trying to convince me to convert. remember when long distance wasn't free?
i asked because the notion people pre-existed their life on planet earth is an LDS doctrine, in case you were wondering.
Using my God-given imagination I would say that the living stone is unique to everyone because God created the earthly body to inscribe his Livingstone with a unique identity from the earthly vessel designed to change identity
So yes all life did pre-exist before the fall about them if you can see it that way although I do have a very hard time convincing people nevertheless.
But never the less, nice attempt to say someone is being blindly led I'm sure that was your intension
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well you have your methods and other people have thers I guess does that make your method anymore reliable than somebody else's method of talking or making.
I like to make people think what they do have first, as its more important to make them see that they do have, a very precious living stone which even needs to be sparked or waterered or fed.
Put most importantly it also needs to be explained in such a way the people can feel safe they do have something if they don't feel safe or saved because it's a place where they can go first most.
But generally you know what I find is that those people who like to talk about the dark side of what people have more than the good side they generally are the people who cast their darkness onto people
I like to make people think what they do have first, as its more important to make them see that they do have, a very precious living stone which even needs to be sparked or waterered or fed.
Put most importantly it also needs to be explained in such a way the people can feel safe they do have something if they don't feel safe or saved because it's a place where they can go first most.
But generally you know what I find is that those people who like to talk about the dark side of what people have more than the good side they generally are the people who cast their darkness onto people
That does not say Abraham (Paul I saw your correction) was alive before the foundation of the world. if that is what you are saying Am I misunderstanding you?
it says God knew Paul before the foundation of the world. and he knew what paul would do before the foundation of the world.
Again, Many are called few are chosen.
God is a God of love, Love requires you give unconditionally, which means you also give the ability to the person you love to reject you. Which is what God did in the garden.
Man always has a choice..
it says God knew Paul before the foundation of the world. and he knew what paul would do before the foundation of the world.
Again, Many are called few are chosen.
God is a God of love, Love requires you give unconditionally, which means you also give the ability to the person you love to reject you. Which is what God did in the garden.
Man always has a choice..
i believe that's a confused understanding of what Peter wrote. he's talking to Christians. not everyone who ever lived is called a living stone.
we ought to be careful using imagination as a hermeneutic.
i suppose one could say so, but only in the mind of God.
i can only surmise you to be offended on behalf of someone you consider to be a friend. if i offended @selahsays, i am very sorry.
when i ask a question, it's because i'm curious and wish to gain information. however, your judgment is duly noted.
we ought to be careful using imagination as a hermeneutic.
i suppose one could say so, but only in the mind of God.
i can only surmise you to be offended on behalf of someone you consider to be a friend. if i offended @selahsays, i am very sorry.
when i ask a question, it's because i'm curious and wish to gain information. however, your judgment is duly noted.
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silent messages are a blessing don't you think..
you also, like living stones,
Meaning everyone are being built into a spiritual house before you become an even more precious stone you had the same stone as Jesus before your built in to a more precious stone
The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,
meaning Jesus was also a precious stone before he became the more precious corner stone
you also, like living stones,
Meaning everyone are being built into a spiritual house before you become an even more precious stone you had the same stone as Jesus before your built in to a more precious stone
The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,
meaning Jesus was also a precious stone before he became the more precious corner stone
It's also here to
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts
This is the living stone that lives in all men 😊 both saved and unsaved
Right. I see it that way also with regards to God knowing the future, or end before it happens (for us). I will probably always see there is mystery there in all of it. Yet, we do have a choice. God know who will choose Him.
The difference between that and hardcore Calvinists (and again I really do not want to discuss Calvinism, but just to make a point here) is they believe that there is no choice and many are destined for hell, having been so from birth.
Thanks
The difference between that and hardcore Calvinists (and again I really do not want to discuss Calvinism, but just to make a point here) is they believe that there is no choice and many are destined for hell, having been so from birth.
Thanks